DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Ukraine: The Saga Concludes

I think it goes back to Trumps first impeachment where Javelins were being held back by the Trump administration in hopes of getting Ukraine to open an investigation against the Bidens.

Let's just say there is history there... and Trump holds a grudge.

So you're trying to say that paying someone off with weapons to try and get them to investigate your political opponents isn't the same thing as giving them much needed aid in their war effort against Russia with no such strings attached!?

Say it ain't so!

Nobody does anything in politics without strings attached.



....now who is holding the strings.....

??

Were you meaning to respond to me?

Ukraine and Russia have been going at it for quite some time,this is just the latest round.i was just pointing out that we sent Javelins earlier than you mentioned.Being confused would be nothing unusual for me,and I didn't mention anything about who votes for what.

I was so mad I shook with adrenaline. These S-head fascist oligarchs need to be road drug and hanged.

Who the hell voted for any of this? No damn body.

no quoting vance sort of

Vance and Trump wouldn’t make a quality pimple on democracy’s ass! Straight trash human beings. And DAMN SURE in Putin’s Pocket like prison bitches.

Is that kind of like holding back funding until the guy investigating your son is fired? Or is that different?

Except that didn't happen. But I guess you're going to believe your echo chamber so i guess you go ahead and believe what you like.

It didn't happen? Odd. Here's Joe talking about it.

This never happened.

After the display we saw today, you need to shut the hell up and let people who think do the work of men. Go hide behind your wife’s skirt. And stop trying to distract with Trumpian BS, we dgaf.

Seriously?

Arch i hope you take 7 or 8 minutes to read this article instead of relying on a 30 second hatchet job. Biden bragging about the firing does not correlate to anything regarding Hunter.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-investigation-impeachment-a9147001.html

Thats a detailed news article from a respected British broadsheet.

Theres also an oversight report that includes statements from Lev Parnas who was Guiliani's right hand man exposing this was just a deliberate and fake conspiracy theory to discredit Biden.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://oversightdemocrats.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/democrats-oversight.house.gov/files/Fact%2520Sheet%2520re%2520Firing%2520of%2520Viktor%2520Shokin.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjsucj9ueeLAxXH2gIHHa20I0YQFnoECCIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1DZyNpux281ISdc9eZrga7

I'm not at all sure what that means...

What the hell does that h ave to do with what happened today... Man you are just tooooo much

Thanks. I read it.

If true, we still have biden withholding/threatening to, money unless a foreign country did "our" will.

He did, but it was on behalf of the US govt and it was in agreement with EU countries who were giving aid to Ukraine and concerned about corruption. At least that's what i have read from multiple sources.

So not acting alone and not like what we've witnessed today in the oval office.

Yes, Trump is a disgrace.

It kind of feels like the tail is wagging the dog there with your argument, though. The it was on behalf of the US govt line is kind of bunk. Biden's people "were the government" when he acted. Trump's people "are the govt" now. It's not quite that simple, but in a lot of ways it holds true.

Party politics is such a corrupting and corruptible setup.

It beats a fascist tech bro Oligarchy any day, even on it’s worst.

The reality TV celebrity created reality TV for the day.

You do not have those discussions on TV when the cameras are rolling. That will ultimately get people killed.

It benefits no one except Trumps narrative to "win the news cycle"

Zelinsky should have been quiet and not accepted the bait.

To quote Admiral Ackbar "It's a Trap"

It doesn't beat it, it allowed it.

^This.^

Perhaps some have noticed/perhaps some have not:
I've been much less active in these PP threads than before.

There's a reason for that. POTUS 45's history.

The main lesson I took from his first term is that HE ALWAYS NEEDS TO BE IN FRONT OF THE CAMERAS.

His main reason for running was based upon ego. POTUS 44 was showered with attention, by virtue of the history-making circumstances of his presidency. The historical nature of his political story blazed a hotter spotlight than any that had ever come before... and Donald Trump envied TF out of that. And then, there was that Press Correspondent's Dinner, when POTUS 44 had the temerity- the (dare I say it?) 'audacity' to slice him to ribbons on the neighborhood playground of Free Speech. Freestyled his ass like Biggie outside the neighborhood stoop. And the crowd laughed with abandon. That was the moment.


It should have come as no surprise to anyone who understands Human Nature that POTUS 45's first Executive efforts were to try to dismantle the accomplishments of his predecessor. Classic. Predictable AF. Tried to dismantle the ACA (POTUS 44's signature accomplishment), in one of his first 'official' moves. Chess players love opponents like he (remember this point for later).

The pathology was blatantly on display, from virtually Day One.

The second lesson I took: make everything a spectacle. Lights, camera, action! More eyes are bigger ratings. Bigger TV numbers be better than littler numbers. When you're a vacuous, competitive Real Housewife type, you pretty much cast yourself as the heroine of your own personal made-up drama. Hits. Likes.

_______________________


This entire tawdry scene looks like it was part of an ongoing WWE potboiler script.

This is the level upon which he operates. It's the level upon which he's operated since the '70's/'80's.
He hasn't learned. He hasn't grown. He has never bettered himself because his basic, privileged self has never been required to... and that's why we see what we now see.

I've been detailing this man's personality profile in this forum for more than ten years now. I've profiled his motivations, his weaknesses, his underlying pathology. Every single one of my assessments are face-upfront for all to see, now that he's been re-elected. He is displaying everything I predicted.

This surface-level, basic human being is exactly who he is and has always been. Don't bother looking any deeper. Beyond the veneer- is a void.
A venal, shallow, hollow, transactional man. Exactly the kind of person KGB agents were trained to use. *



I await the moment when this man ever says a bad thing about the despot who invaded a sovereign nation, one doorstep east of NATO.
Hint: I'll not be holding my breath until that moment. I wish to outlive him long enough to see Americans begin to repair the damage he is currently doing.

The man is who he is. And nothing more.
Fool?
Tool?
Putin's mule?

Hair-splitting. They all smell the same to this American Citizen.

.02,
clemdawg.




*Chess players love opponents like he (remember this point for later)

The interview on Fox News with Brett Baier is a much watch.

Fox news interview

It is really a straight interview with little bias, some tough questions, but nothing inappropriate.

I won’t comment further, except to suggest that it is worth the 22 minutes.

Except that 1 the timing is all wrong regarding the event having anything at all to do with Hunter. Read the article posted above. 2 Europe hailed the firing completely independently from any efforts the USA made.

Sure, try to cast doubt about anything because that's your schtick ... It doesn't stack up in this instance. The firing of Shokin wasn't connected to Hunter, and wasn't initiated or engineered by Joe. The facts support this no matter how you want to frame it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...ine-s-prosecutor-viktor-shokin-1.2591190

Just clicking.. Can anyone explain how we got to the point where somehow, Putin is a good guy?

We have senators and representitives all bellowing about how they want the courts to stand down and let Trump do as he pleases. We have those same folks agreeing with Trumps attemps to censor the press.. He wants them to report what HE wants them to report and nothing else. And these elected officials are saying,, Yeah Man,, Go for it. No Problem...

Then add to it this sudden love for Putin.. I mean really., And what about all these groups that seem to think Hitler wasn't a bad guy?

From my perspective, you can't be a TRUE American and support any of these notions. How could anyone?

What the hell did Putin Promise Trump to get him to go along like this. What the hell is wrong with the American people for voting this idiot back in.

I don't want to hear about how this is about the Deficit or the price of Eggs.. It's not. It's about control and Trump (Putin) seems to have it.

Largely. But I think the reason Trump is so angry and agitated - other than this being a trap and Vance laying into Z in a prepared and public way for theatre - Zelensky has control. And said "No, I am not signing a deal that has zero substance regarding long term security and peace" .... Trump desperate for the accolades of a ceasefire with absolute zero regard to whether the 'Peace' lasts or whether Russia breaks that peace in 5 years time. In fact in many ways he probably/possibly WANTS the peace to disintegrate after his term is done so he can say "It happened because I am not in power". . . . I think Z being the fly in the ointment to Trump thinking he deserves a Nobel Peace prize is what helped turn this so ugly. . . . and the only good thing is that maybe it shows Z and Ukraine (and Europe) that they do have leverage.

Having said that - and while acknowledging Vance and Trump were like two bullies trying to cowtow a subordinate, and acknowledging that they said many things that were factually incorrect .... Zelensky did himself no favours at all. I empathize with him - but while Macron thinks Trump is a buffoon, he also knows he is a narcist and Macron plays to that. Zelensky could have done better without simply bending over and Taking it up the Kaiser.

It ultimately has to do with money in Trumps pocket. Trump Moscow, Trump Kiev, etc.

It has nothing to do with people, policy, democracy. It’s a transaction.

J/C

I don't think Trump is in Putin's pocket exactly. I think it's more Putin is willing to line Trump's pockets. Zelensky wants help for "free." Trump thinks he's playing the Art of the Deal.

Trump is thinking business, not morality.

I'm not saying it's a good thing. It's a disgusting thing. But, it's definitely who Trump has told you he is over and over again. "How can I help me?"

Most politicians play to the morality while squeezing out what personal profit they can on the sly. Trump just chases after the profit, and the selling a reason is an afterthought.

Why anyone buys any of the theater is beyond me.

Thanks for handling the light work.

It was the wishes of not only the U.S. but our NATO partners as well. But I think you already know that and are just being facetious. But anything to take the focus off of trump's actions I suppose.

If Z wanted "help for free" he wouldn't have made the trip to Washington D.C. to sign away the rights to half of his nations rare minerals in return for some basic guarantees of security. He wanted what one would consider a reasonable exchange.

In return he was basically told that he has no power, that trump would set all the rules and Z would either take it or leave it. And it was done in a public manner on display for the world to see. Z showing that Putin had broken several agreements with Ukraine was responded to with a tantrum by trump and Vance like it was a promo for a WWE event. It was disgraceful.

He was browbeaten by an ignoramus, asked questions from somebody who never stepped a day in a war presidents shoes "why he didn't wear a suit", was about to sign a deal to give up up to 500 bn in minerals for what, 130 in previous grants that drump now wants back. trump wanted to make a deal on his terms, with no guarantees, maybe for the Nobel and maybe for a cut off the top-putin would never abide by this.

If I were Z now, I would not grovel or come back to the table-I would work with the people who have skin in the game-NATO and the Europeans with any other country like Canada that wants to stand up to putin. Work a deal out with them, Z would get better terms.

I see the biggest difference between the first four years and now is that trump had grownups in the room like Kelly and Mattis and now he has an heritage plant in vance and splineless wimps like rubio and lady g.

NOPE. The checks and balances fail to work when one team decides to go off the res. 2 party failure? NOPE. 1 party failure? YEP. This entire thing falls on us all, but don’t think for a second that dems were complicit in the Trump 2nd term. That’s on the red-hats. Like Hitler was on the brown-shirts.

At Least Now We Know the Truth
It’s ugly, but necessary to face.

By David Frum
Trump and Zelensky in the Oval Office
ABACA / Reuters
February 28, 2025, 2:17 PM ET
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At least the Oval Office meeting held by President Donald Trump and Vice President J. D. Vance with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky was held in front of the cameras. False friendliness in public by Trump and Vance, followed by behind-the-scenes treachery, would have been much more dangerous to the Ukrainian cause.

Instead, Trump and Vance have revealed to Americans and to America’s allies their alignment with Russia, and their animosity toward Ukraine in general and its president in particular. The truth is ugly, but it’s necessary to face it.


Today’s meeting gave the lie to any claim that this administration’s policy is driven by any strategic effort to advance the interests of the United States, however misguided. Trump and Vance displayed in the Oval Office a highly personal hatred. There was no effort here to make a case for American interests. Vance complained that Zelensky had traveled to Pennsylvania to thank U.S. ammunition workers, because, Vance charged, the appearance amounted to campaigning for the Democratic presidential ticket. “Let me tell you, Putin went through a hell of a lot with me,” Trump angrily explained. “He went through a phony witch hunt where they used him and Russia, Russia, Russia.”

Both the president and vice president showed the U.S.-led alliance system something it needed urgently to know: The national-security system of the West is led by two men who cannot be trusted to defend America’s allies—and who deeply sympathize with the world’s most aggressive dictator.

Through the Cold War period, Americans were haunted by the fear that a person with clandestine loyalties to a hostile foreign power might somehow rise to high office. In the late 1940s, the Alger Hiss case convulsed the country. Hiss’s accusers charged—and it later proved true—that Hiss had betrayed U.S. secrets to Soviet spymasters in the 1930s, when Hiss served as a junior official in the Department of Agriculture. The secrets were not very important; they included designs for a new fire extinguisher for U.S. naval ships. But Hiss himself was a rising star. The possibility that a person with such secrets in his past might someday go on to head the Department of State or Central Intelligence Agency once tormented Americans.


But what if the loyalties were not clandestine, not secret? What if a leader just plain blurted out on national television that he despises our allies, rejects treaties, and regards a foreign adversary as a personal friend? What if he did it again and again? Human beings get used to anything. But this?

It’s not hard to imagine a president of Estonia or Moldova in that Oval Office chair, being berated by Trump and Vance. Or a president of Taiwan. Or, for that matter, the leaders of core U.S. partners such as Germany and Japan, which entrusted their nations’ security to the faith and patriotism of past American leaders, only to be confronted by the faithless men who hold the highest offices today.




We’re witnessing the self-sabotage of the United States. “America First” always meant America alone, a predatory America whose role in the world is no longer based on democratic belief. America voted at the United Nations earlier this week against Ukraine, siding with Russia and China against almost all of its fellow democracies. Is this who Americans want to be? For this is what America is being turned into.

The Trump administration’s elimination of PEPFAR, the American program to combat HIV infection in Africa, symbolizes the path ahead. President George W. Bush created the program because it would do immense good at low cost, and thereby demonstrate to the world the moral basis of American power. His successors continued it, and Congresses of both parties funded it, because they saw that the program advanced both U.S. values and U.S. interests. Trump and Vance don’t want the United States to be that kind of country anymore.

American allies urgently need a Plan B for collective security in a world where the U.S. administration prefers Vladimir Putin to Zelensky.

The American people need to reckon with the mess Trump and Vance are making of this country’s once-good name—and the services they are performing for dictators and aggressors. There may not be a deep cause here. Trump likes and admires bad people because he is himself a bad person. When Vance executed his personal pivot from Never Trump to Always Trump, he needed a way to prove that he had truly crossed over to the dark side beyond any possibility of reversion or redemption; perhaps his support for Russia allowed him to do that. But however shallow their motives, the consequences are profound.


In his first term, Trump sometimes seemed a rogue actor within his own administration. The president expressed strange and disquieting opinions, but his Cabinet secretaries were mostly normal and responsible people. The oddball appointees on the White House staff were contained by the many more-or-less normal appointees. This time, Trump is building a national-security system to follow his lead. He has intimidated or persuaded his caucus in the House to accept—and his caucus in the Senate not to oppose—his pro-authoritarian agenda.

The good and great America that once inspired global admiration—that good and great America still lives. But it no longer commands a consensus above party. The pro-Trump party exposed its face to the world in the Oval Office today. Nobody who saw that face will ever forget the grotesque sight.

Europe's Nightmare Is Here: They Have to Fight Putin Without the US
The Oval Office blow up between Zelenskiy and Trump laid bare for many Europeans that something critical has broken in their relationship with Washington

Author of the article:Bloomberg News
Bloomberg News
Alberto Nardelli
Published Mar 01, 2025 • 5 minute read
Join the conversation


(Bloomberg) — European leaders are confronting their worst-case scenario: maybe they really are going to be dealing with a bellicose Russia alone.


When the US lined up alongside Russia and North Korea earlier this week to oppose a UN motion condemning Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, some European officials knew that the transatlantic relationship was in deep trouble. Then they watched in horror as Donald Trump gave Volodymyr Zelenskiy a public dressing down in the Oval Office and something broke.


Europe's Nightmare Is Here: They Have to Fight Putin Without the US
Presidents Zelenskiy and Trump held a contentious meeting in the Oval Office on Friday. Photographer: Jim Lo Scalzo/EPA/Bloomberg
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In interviews with Bloomberg, more than half a dozen officials who’ve maintained their composure through wars and financial crises reacted with visceral anger. For them, the scene showed the trust and values that have bound Europe and the US together since the end of World War II are no longer shared.

“President Trump and his administration raised a more fundamental challenge to the transatlantic alliance than it has faced in many decades,” said Graham Allison, a professor of government at Harvard University, who studied with Henry Kissinger and served in both the Clinton and Reagan administrations.

French President Emmanuel Macron, UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer and European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen have all described this moment as a generational challenge for the continent. They’ll meet with Zelenskiy and other European leaders in London on Sunday to work out what their next move should be.

The European Union is aiming to follow up with an emergency package of €20 billion ($21 billion) in military aid for Ukraine at an emergency summit in Brussels on Thursday. But that’s just a down payment on the hundreds of billions they will need to mobilize for defense in the coming months if they are to take over responsibility for their own security from the US for the first time in 80 years.

https://financialpost.com/pmn/busin...-they-have-to-fight-putin-without-the-us

I hope the fascist pricks get drug out of the oval and publicly hung by a mob.

What was Joe Biden's net worth before he got into politics? What is it now?

That's not really what I was saying, though. The party committees decide who they give money to for campaigning. If you don't go along with the party, you don't get the party's money. If you don't get the party's money, you have practically 0% chance to win a seat. When you want to get the money, you say party lines like "Joe Biden is sharp as a tack" or "Trump will Make America Great Again."

Don’t forget fellow ignoramus and unqualified Hegseth.

Yesterday still sits no better with me. Just unconscionably bad. Vance looked like a total doofus too when Zelensky confronted him on the fact he was making all kinds of claims but had never actually been to Ukraine, even when Zelensky invited him.

The rage I have toward this admin is at a new level.