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we need to keep both.. 5 years from now.. hopefully all the "other" pieces will be together, and we can just plug in a QB..
5 years? 
yebat' Putin
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I thought it was an optimistic outlook also.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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5 years-optimistic?
I would have said 2 years,but thats for the team to look better, not to keep both QB's.
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Based on what you've seen, are you willing to gamble that more games will produce a different Quinn or even an average Quinn?
Actually, considering the fact that I thought we'd be lucky to win 6 games and now think that number is more along the lines of 4, yes, I would take that gamble. Everyone says, "I'd like to see what DA can do without looking over his shoulder". Guess what.....the same applies to Quinn, or at least it should.
You ask why can't DA improve? He can. But so far he's been the QB he was in High School and College. Lots of INTs with lots of TDs. Unfortunately for him the ratio isn't in his (or our) favor most of the time.
It's a basic truth that in the NFL you will not win consistently without a really good QB. Sure, there are one time wonders to occasionally disprove that rule but those times are rare. Frankly, at this point I have major doubts that we have that QB on the roster. I'd just like to be able to cross Quinn off my own mental list of possibilities and I don't think a reasonable person can do that with the data at hand.
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good or bad ... want to see if we have some players on this team.
Well, I hope for all our sakes that we see something good. Because if we don't it'll probably be more than a month from now before we see a win if we don't get one this week.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Two things:
1. I would bet good money that we'll see Quinn playing QB for the Browns this year. I'd even bet that we'll see Ratliff at 4 to 1. People forget how bad the right side of our line is pass blocking. We're going to be trailing most games, having to throw when the other team knows we're going to throw. And that's a recipe for a QB with a broken jaw. Trust me. DA is not going make it through the season. And I didn't think Quinn would either.
2. What was the first thing that went through your head after watching Massaquoi go for 148 yards against the Bengals? Me....Frisman Jackson. Against the Bengals, early in the year. Kinda out of nowhere. It had that same kind of feeling for me. And I'm kinda surprised that no one else has brought that up yet.
I hope he's a stud. Just food for thought.
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2. What was the first thing that went through your head after watching Massaquoi go for 148 yards against the Bengals? Me....Frisman Jackson. Against the Bengals, early in the year. Kinda out of nowhere. It had that same kind of feeling for me. And I'm kinda surprised that no one else has brought that up yet.
The big difference being that it was early in the season of his 4th year...
yebat' Putin
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No I know.
Just kinda built the same. And the whole "did that guy just go off for 150 yards?" kind of day.
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Everyone says, "I'd like to see what DA can do without looking over his shoulder". Guess what.....the same applies to Quinn, or at least it should.
Why should it? Because he was a first round pick? I'm not buying that. I see no reason why any rule should apply to Quinn when he hasn't earned it. And that's exactly why he's not playing anymore. He hasn't earned a longer look.
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It's a basic truth that in the NFL you will not win consistently without a really good QB.
Agreed. And I think you were right on the money to want Cutler prior to this year. You were one of a few that were clamoring for him, and in hindsight I wish this team would have done something to make it happen. He would have been our 'really good QB'. Position settled, let's build the rest of the team. But we're left with what we got ... and the lesser of the two evils at this point ... the one who has the most chance of turning into that really good QB is DA ... it's not like Quinn won the QB challenge in a landslide, then went into a shell. The guy eked it out, then when the pressure increased, he shrank. And the inaccurracy ... both of these guys are inaccurate ... Quinn is worse than DA.
There have been no indicators in three years albeit a decent showing against the Donks last year that Quinn deserves a longer look. Three years... say it again ... three years. Yet we have people clamoring for him to get more time when we have a QB who as at least shown something ... Mangini has nothing to hold onto with Quinn ... he has no justification to put him in the game ... how is he going to get the team to buy off on it when he hasn't earned it. And if he hasn't earned it in three years, you have to ask yourself will he ever.
We have a guy who has shown something but people have their minds made up so don't want to give him a chance ... then we have a guy who has shown nothing and people want him in the game.
Again, I ask ... why do the same rules have to apply? They don't. You have to make decisions based on the evidence.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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"And that's exactly why he's not playing anymore. He hasn't earned a longer look."
You mean like DA earned that longer look in 07 (his 3rd season btw) when he "LOST" the competition with Frye and then took over the 2nd game as starter and we SHIPPED out Frye and explicitly naming one of the reasons so that DA can be comfortable and NOT LOOK OVER his shoulder....and then the next season being NAMED the starter from the get go getting all the starter reps.
"the one who has the most chance of turning into that really good QB is DA"
How so and just HOW LONG is that "TURNING" process. DA has improved on the things that he does well but has not improved on his negatives.
They are the same as in College coming to the NFL and why he was a 6th round pick...yeah lets here about Tom Brady again. Got news for you...Brady was assessed as a 6th rounder cause of his arm being avg. and his experience limited as a starter ...DA has that gun of an arm and usually that catapults young QBs up the DRAFT Chain...yet, there was DA a 6th rounder.
He hasn't improved on those negatives...He's just a better version of DA.
"TURN"????? TURN INTO???? Look this is his 5th season and ya still keep kissing that FROG as if he's going to turn into the Prince. He is who he is and there isn't much turning...He's not a bum so he'll have his moments.
But he is still DA and we know who that is...just a Frog.
This is one QB who has had decent protection throughout his career so there is no retardation of his skills due to Anarchy...he's actually been the first QB to play for the Browns with "A POCKET"!!!!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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It was all just my opinion. I'm not a DA honker, BQ basher ... or whatever the extremes are. I just prefer DA to be the QB of this team at this time. But I wouldn't mind if Quinn never took another snap ever for the Cleveland Browns ... that's just my opinion. I want a guy who has a chance to be a game changer back there. I don't think Quinn can fit that bill. Our division has playmakers at the QB position ... all three teams ... I don't want a game manager. I want a guy who can make a play when a play is needed.
You obviously have your mind made up about DA ... and you and all the others that do ... you might be right about him ... hell, maybe the odds are even 80-20 that you are all right ... based on what I've seen from Quinn, I'm willing to lay down my $5 bucks on that 20% chance that DA might improve ... before I'd want to give Quinn more time.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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This is one QB who has had decent protection throughout his career so there is no retardation of his skills due to Anarchy...he's actually been the first QB to play for the Browns with "A POCKET"!!!!
Maybe you slept through the 2008 season. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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It was all just my opinion. I'm not a DA honker, BQ basher ... or whatever the extremes are. I just prefer DA to be the QB of this team at this time. But I wouldn't mind if Quinn never took another snap ever for the Cleveland Browns ... that's just my opinion. I want a guy who has a chance to be a game changer back there. I don't think Quinn can fit that bill. Our division has playmakers at the QB position ... all three teams ... I don't want a game manager. I want a guy who can make a play when a play is needed.
You obviously have your mind made up about DA ... and you and all the others that do ... you might be right about him ... hell, maybe the odds are even 80-20 that you are all right ... based on what I've seen from Quinn, I'm willing to lay down my $5 bucks on that 20% chance that DA might improve ... before I'd want to give Quinn more time.
Might be the most intelligent post ever made on this forum.
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Quote:
It was all just my opinion. I'm not a DA honker, BQ basher ... or whatever the extremes are. I just prefer DA to be the QB of this team at this time. But I wouldn't mind if Quinn never took another snap ever for the Cleveland Browns ... that's just my opinion. I want a guy who has a chance to be a game changer back there. I don't think Quinn can fit that bill. Our division has playmakers at the QB position ... all three teams ... I don't want a game manager. I want a guy who can make a play when a play is needed.
You obviously have your mind made up about DA ... and you and all the others that do ... you might be right about him ... hell, maybe the odds are even 80-20 that you are all right ... based on what I've seen from Quinn, I'm willing to lay down my $5 bucks on that 20% chance that DA might improve ... before I'd want to give Quinn more time.
Might be the most intelligent post ever made on this forum.
You need to read more posts, then.
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Why? He's right.
Quinn looked like ABSOLUTE GARBAGE. Worse than #9 and you KNOW how much I hated #9.
DA at least gives the offense a pulse. Captain Checkdown doesn't. (if Rish would allow me to steal a creation of his)
We NEED a stud QB in this division. Period. We cannot win with a bum. Cannot play with him. Cannot coach with him. Can't do it, can't do it.
So many people are in love with the "Trent Dilfer game manager" type if we build up our D and running game. I call BS on that. We NEED a stud QB who can dominate a game. DA has at least shown that ability on some occasions. Quinn hasn't shown ONE IOTA of it.
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I take it that you've changed your opinion about Quinn, Ammo?
It's funny..........being the fence-rider that I am...........I found myself in the minority when criticizing Quinn, yet now I find myself perhaps again in the minority when saying it's too early to shut the book on him.
I can say with 100% accuracy that I had big questions about Quinn in college, had them when he was drafted, and had them in each of the past three seasons. But I can also say with 100% accuracy that he isn't the first young QB to struggle when faced with his first real taste of adversity.
The Donks game last year did nothing but give false hope and belief to fans who thought that game meant Quinn was a good QB. I could have gone out there and done what he did, considering how the Donks weren't able to cover even the shortest zones. Unfortunately, it also didn't do anything for Quinn, as he wasn't able to learn anything from that game. He's struggled badly outside of that one game, and needs this time to decompress and figure it all out.
I don't believe in Quinn. I never did. But I'm also not ready to bury him just yet. As limited as Anderson is as a QB, he's the best choice right now. Maybe that'll change by years end, maybe it won't, but what I do know is that while he's never going to be a QB who can be relied upon to make smart decisions with the ball, he's also a QB who can make NFL throws and try and win us a game while simultaneously allowing our receivers to develop and our O-line the opportunity not to have to block an 8-man box.
Yes, Mangini chose the wrong guy in camp. We know it now. What we don't know is if Quinn can overcome his deficiencies in the future, a future that cannot happen in the next week or two. The team's psyche can't afford it.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Just because he's right, doesn't mean it was the most intelligent post you've ever read. Unless that was just an extreme overstatement on your part? 
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We'll see how DA holds it together this week without BE to stretch the field and with Cribbs catching passes again... OH! That's right, we picked up a legit number 2 and activated Robo. So even in this game DA will have better weapons against a weaker team...
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It'll actually be tougher on Anderson, as he won't have familiarity with anyone on the field.
He's never met Stuckey, let alone thrown him passes. Robo has never seen the field.
If I'm a QB in this league, the situation Anderson is walking into with these receivers is one I wouldn't want any part of.
We'll be better in the longrun for losing Edwards, but we're not better off in the here and now.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Why? He's right.
Quinn looked like ABSOLUTE GARBAGE. Worse than #9 and you KNOW how much I hated #9.
DA at least gives the offense a pulse. Captain Checkdown doesn't. (if Rish would allow me to steal a creation of his)
We NEED a stud QB in this division. Period. We cannot win with a bum. Cannot play with him. Cannot coach with him. Can't do it, can't do it.
So many people are in love with the "Trent Dilfer game manager" type if we build up our D and running game. I call BS on that. We NEED a stud QB who can dominate a game. DA has at least shown that ability on some occasions. Quinn hasn't shown ONE IOTA of it.
For those of you aching for us to draft a Qb in round one (not saying you ammo, just using your Captain Checkdown and need for a new Qb comments as a tangent point), I saw a stat on Sam Bradford that was unexpected but interesting. I don't remember the exact percent but something like 75% of his passes have travelled less than 10 yards in the air.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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And that there is one of the main reasons I'm not a Bradford fan.
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Just because he's right, doesn't mean it was the most intelligent post you've ever read. Unless that was just an extreme overstatement on your part?
It was neither intelligent nor articulate.
Ammo, I didn't come up with that moniker, but I don't remember where I got it from. I want to say this board, but it could have been over at the OBR. By the way, you were mentioned in a thread over there about Sabrina Parr ...they said you knew her from your internship. The poster also said you were cool in high school ... not sure why that was thrown in there ... but they immediately banned that person from the board ... I guess lying is not allowed. 
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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It had to be Asiandawg or whatever that made that post about Ammo. That guy has a major man-crush on Ammo 
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I found it: Quote:
A popular kid in HS I know interned for WKNR and knew Sabrina. He's Ammo over on DawgTalkers and knows everything about local radio.
The poster was kosartoslaugher.
Ammo, someone thinks very highly of you; you have a fanclub. 
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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It probably is Ammo. Check the IP addresses!
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just clicking ... I just watched some interviews with Buffalo defensive players over on their main website. It was interesting to hear their defensive coordinator and some of their players talk about Anderson. Not so much because of what they said, but Quinn was mentioned too. Some may find it interesting. I did. 
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Funny thing is I only met Sabrina once. My days there were Monday, Tuesday and Thursday and she was there on Wednesday.
I doubt she even knows who I am. Now Chloe on the other hand...
As for who wrote that...probably Asian...his usernames on other board are consistent with that 1980's Browns theme. I try not to associate myself with him. I can't call myself popular, our entire class was like a big family and most of us got along. We didn't have many social classes, so I considered us all "popular" for lack of a better term.
Last edited by Ammo; 10/10/09 04:28 PM.
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This is one QB who has had decent protection throughout his career so there is no retardation of his skills due to Anarchy...he's actually been the first QB to play for the Browns with "A POCKET"!!!!
Outside of the Giants game last season I would argue that your full of it... 
Our O Line for the most part last season was awful, and in case you missed it we just did draft a center #1 and we replaced both our RT and RG, and you say that DA has always had a pocket (slang for well protected). OK ya got me what did you see last season? 
Be careful here your going to be graded on your response!
BTTB
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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Our best blocking line in the receent past had Tucker at RG and Shaffer at RT. Cutting Shaffer IMO was a mistake, maybe even Mangini's biggest mistake. Who can tell me that St. Clair is a better starting RT? I'm also not that wild about cutting Davis and Jones. I understand why it was done, including cutting Shaffer,but I don't see how we have improved in their absence. Davis and Jones could have at least been in a rotation and played special teams.Are we really that deep that Jones, Shaffer and Davis could not make the team even as a back-up? Then again I don't know everything especially what happened behind closed doors. M/K might have asked the three to take lower salaries and all three declined. Also, put me in the same boat with those that believe that shoveling dirt on BQ may be a bit too premature. I'm inclined to stick with the current QB duo and find a flyer in a later round as the #3 as in the Cassell /Brady idea. But before we even worry about drafting "the franchise QB", we need a pocket for them to drop into. RT no later than high in the 2nd will do.
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"It was all just my opinion."
As is just about everything on this board. Don't take it personal if I disagree and point out why. I use Quotes cause I don't like to miss interpret what you state. You did say those things??? I only stated why I disagreed.
"Our division has playmakers at the QB position ."
I agree...
Palmer overall #1
Ben Roth overall #11
Flacco overall #18
Derek Anderson overall #213
Does something stick out to you like a sore thumb???
Btw - its called TALENT.
No, Not every First round pick QB makes it....but the vast Majority of the GOOD, VERY GOOD QBs come from there. If they don't, they had some reasons...Brees cause he's short. Brady cause he didn't have the starts nor strong impressive arm.
DA??? Lots of Starts...TOP Class ARM - hmmm why was he #213???
Look here is what I'm saying.
WE NEED A FRANCHISE QB...we finally have an OL that can provide a dependable Pocket (especially from LT) to develop a stud. W/O that Franchise QB we will only FIRE THE OC...geee how many have we had since 99??? Then when that don't help end up firing the REGIME and start over!
The time is right - You tell me. You got a chance of a lifetime, To Build YOUR TEAM, you have inherited DA - you never picked him, this isn't YOUR GUY - just making some Lemonade.
So you are going to RISK EVERYTHING on DA? Sink or Swim.
All I'm saying is Don't be surprised - If M/K takes THEIR GUY...trade BQ or DA after the pick is made (whoever gets the most in trade) - if DA is here I wouldn't be surprised if he is named the starter while the KID LEARNS for a year and in 2011 he starts or if DA falters in 2010 he takes over.
Cause I try to put myself in others shoes. And If my DREAMs, My CAREER is going to depend on DA turning into a Prince????
I'm Done.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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No, I'm not taking it personal ... just didn't feel I qualified my statements enough that they were my opinion.
You make a valid argument, but all it's saying is that the odds are a better QB will be had in the 1st than the later rounds. Yet we have a 6th round QB starting and a 1st round QB who doesn't appear to be all that good. DA has shown some promise so I'd rather not draft another QB in the first next year. If at the end of next year, we still suck at the position, then let's get it addressed. If we work on filling other spots in next year's draft, then go QB the following year, maybe we'll find ourselves in the position where we can plug him in ... it would be nice to get a couple of impact players on D next year ... and they'll have a year's worth of experience under their belts before we turn the offense upside down.
For me, it's this simple. I'm willing to ride the DA rollercoaster and see where it takes us for the remainder of this year and next. I'm not willing to ride Quinn Mountain as that ride has made me incredibly nauseous. I'd also like to see us draft positions other than QB early in the draft next year. If we can shore up the D, we'll start to be in every game ... that would be a perfect situation for a rookie QB to step into.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I'm pretty much in agreement. If we draft a QB in the 1st round next April I'll be sickened. A right tackle would be acceptable..... but I'd rather address our defense early and often.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Quote:
I'm pretty much in agreement. If we draft a QB in the 1st round next April I'll be sickened. A right tackle would be acceptable..... but I'd rather address our defense early and often.
I agree 100%... Anderson is serviceable.. You don't need Peyton Manning to win a championship... DEFENSE FIRST!! then get the running game going by upgrading ur o-line and rb.
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Toad,
it's interesting - you were one of the more negative people on the board during the preseason; now you are one of the more positive (relatively speaking). The one piece of criticism that I don't quite understand is when you say Mangini screwed up the QB with the delay in naming the starter. I can't criticize him for a bad decision when the alternative would not have made much difference - given that this is a rebuilding year. Since this is a multiple-year process, could the manner in which Mangini handled the QB competition been appropriate?
Mangini knew neither QB was the answer but his hands were tied. Make it asdifficult for both and see which one survives. It's survival of the fittest and was not meant to coddle a true star in the making. Besides, he knows in the grand scheme of building a winning team he had bigger decisions to make.
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
WE NEED A FRANCHISE QB...we finally have an OL that can provide a dependable Pocket (especially from LT) JMHO
I'm not sold on the OL providing a dependable pocket especially from the right side. When DA had Shaffer and Tucker there he had a decent year. Doesn't that fact mean that we gotta fix that problem before any QB can be successful?
and if DA can perform like he did in 2007 I'll be happy and concentrate on building a defense and add a few skills positions rather than wasting a top pick on a QB.
Let's not put the cart before the horse.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849 Likes: 12
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849 Likes: 12 |
or the rims before the car... lol..
I'm rooting for Anderson b/c I really don't want to see the Browns use a first round pick on a QB... I don't want to draft QB period!
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
Quote:
or the rims before the car... lol..
I'm rooting for Anderson b/c I really don't want to see the Browns use a first round pick on a QB... I don't want to draft QB period!
and how do we know what we have in Quinn with the train wreck of an offense we currently have.
Remember......
Tom Brady had a great OL in place when he stepped in there. He has had time to look for open receivers from day one and the defense and running game was pretty sound too.
First second and third rounds: tackle, OLB and ILB
Last edited by Line Judge; 10/11/09 11:18 AM.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849 Likes: 12
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849 Likes: 12 |
Quote:
First second and third rounds: tackle, OLB and ILB
Add safety in there too... Berry is a Brown.. I already know it!
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 Likes: 445
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 Likes: 445 |
Quote:
Mangini knew neither QB was the answer but his hands were tied.
Depending on what period of time you are talking about, this can only be construed as a false conclusion. We could've made a deal for Cutler; we could've drafted Sanchez. How do either of those imply his hands were tied?
Now if you are saying Mangini knew neither was the answer, but he wanted to build the team first i.e., acquire picks, not give up picks ... then that's reasonable.
Hell, I think it's obvious Mangini didn't really know what we had on this team. I would be willing to bet anything that if he were asked who has surprised him the most, he'd say Thomas, Cribbs, and Rogers ... our three best players. We know these guys are great, but I bet he had no idea how good they really were. This guy was focusing on the JETS the last 3 years. I don't think he had much of a clue about what to expect on this team.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
eo...
question for you. Above you posted that DA was the only QB the Browns have had who has a pocket...
my question therein lies...every single year DA started, one other QB (or 5 other) QBs have started and they didnt have a pocket...When Frye started in 07 we had OL problems, but then DA came in and we didnt. This year, Quinn didnt have a pocket and we had major OL problems...but DA comes in and our line "improved last week" and last year...at the end of the year when we had Quinn, Gradkowski, Dorsey and so on...we had OL problems too, but the pocket wasnt collapsing when DA was there...he just made mistakes.
Isnt it possible that part of the reason he is a good QB is that he takes MUCH of the burden off the OL? I understand he makes mistakes...but we in Cleveland have seen how he can take a mediocre line and make it look good. I can guarantee you that he doesnt take 11 sacks the rest of the year...which we'd given up through 3 games with Quinn and 2 quarters of DA down 20+
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 180
1st String
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1st String
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 180 |
Who knows how much Mangini knew going in to the draft... My guess is that he knew he did not have a franchise QB, but he did not know just how adequate either would be. It's interesting you brig up the Cutler option. It strikes me that the Broncos did the right thing: build the team around a serviceable QB instead of trying to make the best of a poor team with a franchise QB. The Broncos got a lot of valuable draft picks in return. The Bears were in a position to mortgage some of the future to win now. The Browns were not even close to that position.
The point is, Toad and I agree that Mangini did not make a mistake by not going after a franchise QB in the off-season. I differ in that whatever mistake Mangini might have made with the QB competition, it is so small and insignificant in the grand scheme of things that it is not important to consider.
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