DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum With the season 1/4 over, we now have some answers

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I agree with both statements, but I'll add that what we have as far as depth severely lacking so saying that Harrison is better than anything else we have really isn't saying much. I believe he will make the big play once in a blue moon, but unless the hole is huge at the goalline, he won't be able to punch it in.

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Sounds pretty much like the DA argument to me..

Seriously though, don't we have 2 fullbacks on the roster? Are they just incabable of actually of touching the ball? Why, on the goalline, can't we figure out which fullback is better with the ball and line him up behind the other fullback and plow ahead?

No we have 1 FB ..

That doesn't sound like a report so much as gossip.

The title reads "Derek Anderson is glad that Braylon is gone", and the first sentence starts, "Though he hasn't and likely won't say or do anything publicly to indicate his feelings on the matter".

With that said, he probably won't miss the drops, the routes and the mouth.

He probably will miss the presence Edwards brought to the field, positive performance or not.

don't forget Edwards is the guy who chases down the DB that intercepts DA's passes.

guess Cribbs will have to be on the field for that more often now

09', Mangenious knows the fans want to see what BQ can do, so he has this so called competition, with the dink and dunk type "O" knowing fully well that it only works with a good RB in the picture. He feels Lewis is running out of gas and won't do much against the tough "D"s ( first 3 games)
so he goes with BQ, who gets BE ( who has double,triple coverage as his only receiver ) perfect set up for failure. This is how he sets up DA as his real choice, without a riot in the stands. DA does worse than BQ when he takes over in the 2nd half and even gets a break, should have had another pick or two.

4.) Game 4 unveils a whole new game plan, with a new cast. Probably a whole new blocking scheme and all, it was a totally different "O". Change of the play calling and it wasn't to DAS's supposed strength (long ball) either. It was more like to BQ's, with most of the pass plays in the 10 -15 yard range, which should have been the call for BQ, especially if he had the blocking, running and field position that DA got.



I spoke of this and no one responded to it...I sensed the same thing too..which coincides with something I heard that Gini liked DA a lot but couldn't risk losing the fanbase making that kind of decision..now I will repeat something...trade deadline is coming..do not be shocked i f another move is made..I doubt it ..they will probably hang on to BQ ..but in the offseason something definately is going to happen..
I asked what changes will happen now that DA is the starter..and bang...we saw it..and now all of a sudden Robo is being talked about having a greater role..

Hey it was mixed in with various other things including Lerner..I said I heard it..but fact is changes were made in regards to DA's start..but none were made with Quinn..and I am hearing the rumblings about him ..speculation but I won't be shocked if he's dealt at the trade deadline..it was said Brayless certainly would have been.

I'm not all high on trading Quinn but the natural fit is still the Vikings... he could sit the rest of the year while Favre has his fun.. then if Favre retires.. no really... Quinn would have time in the system already, a solid running game, a great defense.. all the things he would need to succeed...

If he is dealt, it needs to be a NFC team..not looking to stockpile the AFC with former players..

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But if Quinn is traded, it kinda shoots holes in the theory that Mangini caters to the fanbase.

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Well, at this point, the fanbase doesn't have much to stand on

But if Quinn is traded, it kinda shoots holes in the theory that Mangini caters to the fanbase.


If one buys into the fanbase thing..however I will point out that since the fans have seen Quinn..( not to mention,not enough) and have soured on him...it doesn't cut them as much(if he's traded sooner or later) as if he had named DA the starter in the beginning.. just musing over things I read..

Wasn't sure where to post this, but this is a good summary of where we have been with the QB situation (in case anybody has forgotten) written by David Fleming.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=fleming/091007&sportCat=nfl

After treating the announcement with more secrecy and intrigue than the launch codes to our nuclear arsenal, just before kickoff in Week 1 the Cleveland Browns' new, no-nonsense coach, Eric Mangini, made Brady Quinn his starting quarterback in perpetuity, which turned out to last 10 whole quarters. Quinn was then benched in favor of Derek Anderson, who earned the starting job by passing for 92 yards, no TDs and three interceptions in a 34-3 blowout loss to Baltimore. "I just think Derek did some things that were positive," said Mangini, who was interrupted by the sound of Otto Graham rolling over in his grave.

Taking the advice of Common, who mocked Quinn from the stage during a recent show in Ohio, Mangini decided to stick with Anderson, for now, because, well, he "sensed a real sense of calm" in him during the Browns' 10th loss in a row, where they improved significantly by losing by only three points. One more note: Anderson's one saving grace was he had a connection with Braylon Edwards -- who was promptly traded to the Jets. (Quinn, the former Notre Dame golden boy from Dublin, Ohio, and 22nd overall pick in the 2007 draft, responded by guzzling another one of those shakes of his.)

Flem File

Somehow, after all this, crazy Cleveland fans still longing for the 1940s and '50s, when the Browns were the Yankees of pro football, keep complaining that the quarterback position has been an absolute nightmare since the Browns rejoined the league.

Oh, come on.

The truth is, I can sum up the problems the Browns have had at quarterback since 1999 in one simple sentence …

It's interesting to note that, recently, when things looked like they were at their absolute worst, former Browns quarterback Tim Couch, the No. 1 pick overall in 1999 and the guy who started this whole mess, stepped right back into his usual role with the team, managing, like he always did, to make things just a wee little bit worse by telling a local reporter last week that, heck, no quarterback could be successful with the Browns, even, say, one like Couch, a cannon-armed Heisman Trophy finalist at Kentucky who was paid $48 million over seven years by Cleveland and started his career in the third quarter of the 1999 season opener a very telling 0-for-3 with a pick in a 43-0 loss to the rival Pittsburgh Steelers, something we were told not to worry about because, heck, he had beaten out the likes of Ty Detmer for the starting job (6-for-13 for 52 yards and a pick against Pittsburgh) and the head coach was offensive guru Chris Palmer and, on top of that, the entire franchise had four years to regroup after being moved to Baltimore and renamed the Ravens (and trust me, the Browns had time on their hands, because I visited them during this stretch and they were so bored they were re-mowing the grass on the practice field); so, eventually, Couch worked through his 0-5 start to throw a Hail Mary to beat the New Orleans Saints 21-16 on Oct. 31, 1999, and then the hated Steelers two weeks later, 16-15, only to be sacked 56 times, which led to a broken leg and his eventual replacement by Detmer in Week 15; a pattern that would repeat itself in 2000, when a banged-up Couch was dumped for Doug Pederson -- a 12-year NFL journeyman and a really good guy who is best known as the ignominious backup to the Green Bay version of Brett Favre, the one quarterback who actually never needed a backup -- halfway through the season, a logical move followed by the bizarre decision to bench Pederson in Week 14 in favor of something called Spergon Wynn (which, I honestly thought, was the name of the sailboat on "Gilligan's Island"), a player, we should note, the Browns selected before Tom Brady in the draft, who would go on to a successful career (as a backup in the CFL) after proving Palmer's finely tuned instincts correct by throwing for 17 yards (I'm not making this up,
[+] EnlargeDerek Anderson
Al Messerschmidt/Getty ImagesDerek Anderson is the only Browns quarterback
to achieve a passer rating above 80 for an entire season since Cleveland rejoined the NFL in 1999.
folks, there are, like, laws and stuff) in a 48-0 loss to the Jags that led to his own benching and Palmer's dismissal after a 3-13 season and two seasons of the worst offense in the NFL, a tradition new (and equally outmatched) head coach Butch Davis managed to continue in 2001, when Couch started all 16 games, throwing for 3,040 yards and 21 picks versus 17 TDs while leading the Browns to a 7-9 finish -- something that, you would assume, taught them a lesson about being consistent at quarterback -- psych! -- instead, Davis already had his eye on Kelly Holcomb, an undrafted 28-year-old signal-caller from Middle Tennessee State who hadn't thrown an NFL pass in four years (a surefire formula for NFL quarterbacking success if there ever was one) yet nevertheless still got the starting nod at the beginning of 2002, only to be replaced by Couch in Week 3 who, two weeks later, was injured in the fourth quarter while trailing the Baltimore Ravens 23-8, after which, while lying on the turf dazed and in pain, Couch heard the normally decent Browns fans expressing some serious season-ticket holding schadenfreude, cheering for the possibility of Holcomb coming back in (a bit twisted, sure, but the fans turned out to be right, because Holcomb nearly brought the Browns back, losing 26-21 while playing on, get this, a broken freaking leg -- a "teeny tiny" fracture, according to Davis who, you might say, was just a "teeny tiny" ways away from being a successful pro coach -- it was one of the few truly heroic things any quarterback in Cleveland has done since the 1980s), a gesture that, nonetheless, caused a teary-eyed Couch, his face more twisted than the Cuyahoga River, to say after the game, "I've laid it on the line for this team and this city and for them to turn on me and boo me in my home stadium is a joke -- a joke … I've worked my a-- off here and this is … it's hard to take, man," after which he came back and led the Browns to the playoffs, only to be hurt in the season finale, where he had to sit and watch as Holcomb (26-of-43 for 429 yards and three TDs) lost a wild-card shootout to the Steelers 36-33, but earned the 2003 starting spot, for three games, anyway, until he was sidelined by broken ribs, replaced again (sigh) by Couch, whom he, in turn, replaced in Week 7 for seven straight games, including a 44-6 win over Arizona where Holcomb threw for 392 yards and three TDs, only to be benched, again, (need Tylenol, must get Tylenol) after throwing two picks in the first half against the Rams on Dec. 8, 2003 -- an opportunity that Couch seized with all the gusto and passion of an air kiss, losing three straight, including 35-0 to those QB-killing Ravens, before regrouping and beating Cincinnati 22-14 in what would be Couch's final game in Cleveland (not to mention the NFL); a departure that would complicate his life (after he was cut by the Jags in 2007, Couch was suspended for six games by the NFL for violating the league's steroids policy, ending a train wreck of a career that almost puts him in the same pantheon as Ryan Leaf) and -- believe it or not -- the Cleveland quarterback position in 2004, which went something like this (deep breath, people) Jeff Garcia, just beginning his nomadic wanderings through the NFL wilderness (remember him playing for Cleveland? I know, I know, it's like a jolt to the memory bank, like, hearing the words "Josie's on a vacation far away …") started with a decent performance in a 20-3 win over the Ravens, but Garcia went 2-7 after that and was replaced by Holcomb, who in Week 12 threw for 386 yards (that's the good news) in a 58-48 loss to the Bengals (bad news) which resulted in Davis resigning and rookie Luke McCown being thrown to the wolves with a four-game losing streak which ended when a healthy Holcomb came back and, as per tradition in Cleveland, beat Houston 22-14 in his final game as a Brown before moving on to Buffalo, which, once again, opened the spot for new, can't-miss coach Romeo Crennel, who for a fresh, hip, new, exciting start in 2005, tabbed 12-year veteran Trent Dilfer, who has since described the problems in Cleveland as deep, multilayered dysfunction (think: Bundt cake of bad football), but was, in light of the team's shortcomings, valiantly mediocre in 11 starts that took their toll on his knees and his psyche, pushing the revolving door in Cleveland just far enough for former Akron Zip and third-round pick Charlie Frye, a (really) poor man's Ben Roethlisberger, taken a full round ahead of the now 4-0 Kyle Orton, by the way, to start the final five games of the 2005 season, going 2-3 but with a team rookie-record 136.7 passer rating against the Jags, which combined with his Ohio roots was, I suppose, enough to win him the starting quarterback job permanently -- a term that means right around half a season in Cleveland -- because in 2006, Frye, not to be mistaken (or is he?) for the Vegas juggler and magician of the same name, was 3-8 as a starter when he got hurt against the Chiefs and was replaced by former Oregon State Beaver and Baltimore Ravens sixth-round draft pick, the 6-foot-6 Derek Anderson (nickname: DA, sweet), who threw two fourth-quarter TD passes to lead the team to a 31-28 win in overtime capped by his 33-yard scramble to set up the winning field goal … only to lose his next three starts, including a 22-7 loss to the Bucs where he threw four picks and zero TDs, forcing Crennel to go back to Frye for a season-ending loss to Houston, the hangover from which must have extended into the 2007 season opener against Pittsburgh, because, get this, Frye was benched before halftime and, 48 hours later, traded to Seattle for a sixth-round pick (the first time in modern pro football history that a starting quarterback in Week 1 was traded before the second game of the season -- yeah, take that Al Davis), causing, one might think, Cleveland's crazy, complicated, confusing and cockamamy quarterback carousel to finally spin fully out of control; instead, in the topsy-turvy, upside-down world of the Browns, Anderson actually settled into the position in 2007 (aw come on, it didn't take that long), throwing five TDs the next week against the Bengals and leading the Browns (with a passer rating that twice pushed north of 140) to a 10-6 finish; only -- you guessed it -- to struggle to a 3-5 start in 2008, when he was replaced by Brady Quinn, who (having already banked a cool $7.75 million for carrying a clipboard) teased the Lake Erie faithful with two TDs and a 104.3 passer rating in a shootout loss to the Broncos only to -- yeowch -- break his finger the following week in a win against Buffalo that caused (spin) Anderson, then (spin) former Miami quarterback and seventh-rounder Ken Dorsey and then (spin … baaaaarfffff) sixth-rounder and Toledo Rocket Bruce Gradkowski to combine for an 0-6 finish that got Crennel fired in favor of the, you know, no-nonsense Mangini, who, we were told (right after former Browns QB great Bernie Kosar declared for bankruptcy and declared himself "an idiot") would restore some common sense, order, discipline and success to the Cleveland Browns, starting, first and foremost, with their quarterbacks, a statement that, in light of the circus under center so far in 2009, can mean only one thing: Hello, Brett Ratliff.

David Fleming is a senior writer for ESPN The Magazine and the author of the memoir "Noah's Rainbow" and "Breaker Boys: The NFL's Greatest Team and the Stolen 1925 Championship." And his work will be featured in the 2009 Best American Sports Writing anthology. The Flem File appears every Wednesday during the NFL season with updates on Mondays and Fridays.

David Fleming should learn about paragraphs. I think I first heard about them in 1st grade.

I heard that from day 1 Mangini and Kokinis were never really intrigued by Quinn. I personally feel Quinn will be traded..don't know when but I think Mangini is pretty convinced that he just doesn't have "IT". You just don't pull a Franchise QB after 2.5 games..if you believe he has "IT", but it's just not showing up. You let him work it out. I do believe he likes Anderson and his upside and what he brings to the table. I think he had to let Quinn start the year for several reasons..So the fanbase would see what they saw and bring fans expectations down from lala land and relieve the pressure off the QB he wanted from the start. Fans would be screaming for Brady if Anderson started the year..no matter how he did. With over 12 million in incentives in the contract if Quinn reached 70% of the snaps..they took a look and it took 2.5 games for him to realize that he didn't want to tie up that kind of Money for those services.

You better believe Quinn will be gone.. I believe he is comfortable enough in Anderson to let him lead for the next few years and build the team around him. When he gets to that point, He will have a team where either he can plug in a QB they draft or acquire via free agency or Anderson proves he is the guy to take this team where they want to go. He brought Ratliff along..not to be a third QB, but instead that he is comfortable with him as a second QB. Stand back and you can see who's on the outside looking in. Just a matter of time. JMHO

Mangini is building the team his way and he is married to very few of these guys. He wants to be competetive, but knows he had a bad hand to start and you don't pull QB's that are part of your future, especially if you plan to grow. Not for this year but years after. The writing is on the wall..you can either accept it or reject it. Everyone that you have heard about them trying to trade has been traded. The Browns were seeking offers for Quinn and were part of the Broncos trade talks...that shows how much they really want Quinn. Just like Edwards and the Giants..Winslow was a little surprising. Edwards and Winslow for larger than life ego's..Quinn will be gone because of questionable skills and the large price tag that comes with it. JMHO

I'm not into conspiracy theories, but I do know this much. If Anderson had won the starting job, just about every single Browns fan would have gone ape crap ... including myself. I was convinced that Quinn had all the intangibles and just needed the experience. But if Mangini really wanted DA all along, this worked out very well for him. There is no way DA gets booed (at least not in favor of Quinn). I don't believe in conspiracy theories, but if DA was EM's QB all along, you couldn't have written a better script.

I hope Quinn gets traded. I hope DA gets this year and next year to prove he can be the guy. In the meantime, we can shore up some other positions, then fill the QB gap in 2011 (hopefully) if DA doesn't show that he can be the guy. My biggest problem with Quinn is I just don't see anything at all that would lead me to believe he can turn it around. Granted, I am completely on board with the notion that he has some mental block. I mean it looks like he crawled into a shell. But I don't see even a gleam that should he come out of the shell, he can be an above average QB in this league. Maybe he hasn't had enough time, but I'm not willing to take that bet. Sometimes coaches just know. And sometimes us fans can just use deductive reasoning. Deductive reasoning seems to be pointing in the direction that he's probably just not that good. All the signs up to now are pointing in that direction.

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I heard that from day 1 Mangini and Kokinis were never really intrigued by Quinn.

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I never heard rumors like that at all.. As for him being traded,, not sure if it will happen during the season or during the off season, but I do think it will happen..

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I hope DA gets this year and next year to prove he can be the guy.

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This is the sentiment that I don't get. DA has had nearly 2 years to show what he can do. 1 good year, 1 bad year essentially. Now he gets another 2?

I understand that you and others feel Quinn is basically worthy of only the scrap heap. I don't agree but I don't see him on the field, as a Brown, ever again unless there is an injury. But in nearly 2 years of starts what exactly has DA done to warrant another 2 years of playing time in the same world where you've decided BQ is crap after less than 5 games? I just don't see the logic here.

Now that they've traded away the only bonafide deep threat that we had ( a move, btw, that I totally agree with) just exactly how is DA gonna "stretch the field"? MoMass may have had a good game last week but rookie WRs are notoriously streaky. With the team we have on Offense this week the Buffalo Defense is probably licking their chops.

Anyway, the thought just occurred to me that none of this probably matters. Going on his performance so far Mangini will probably yank DA and insert Ratliff about the 3rd quarter of this week's game anyway. Makes as much sense as anything else......

Isn't it possible that maybe we were all wrong about DA? No one seems willing to go that route. I'd like to see if maybe we were. I'd like to see if he can improve. But everyone's mind is already made up.


I sure as heck won't speak for anyone else..but if I don't see a improvement on the things I hammer him for ..than I wasn't wrong..
But one thing is still showing on him..the decisions..if he can't make better decisions throughout a game, the rest won't matter because he'll leave yards/points on the field..and the offense will bog down on crucial drives.

I agree. And we also discussed the progressions thing as well. I will be looking for both as the season progresses.

The best possible case for this team is that the proverbial light bulb comes on for DA although there may not be any switch for his type of deficiencies ...

I'm going to try to give him the benefit of the doubt at this time ... and we'll see where it goes from here.

As much as it pains me to say this..I hope at the end of the season whoever is QB'ing the team is really doing well and only handicapped by lack of supporting cast, not however being the reason for the ineptness..
Why..because the team needs to be built and everyone of picks needs to address all the weak areas..and the Browns have plenty and some are reoccurances of the same positions...like DE/OLB/RB..it's time to draft a solid back to take over.
And we're going to need another # 1 wideout..

At this point.. I think we need to keep both Anderson and Quinn for the long haul..

Keep Anderson as the starter.. and Quinn as the backup...

I would be upset if the new regime targets a QB in next years draft..

Build your defense and running game.. DEFENSE FIRST of course...

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Mangini is building the team his way and he is married to very few of these guys. He wants to be competetive, but knows he had a bad hand to start and you don't pull QB's that are part of your future, especially if you plan to grow.

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Just to play devil's advocate here: Any chance he doesn't want to ruin him as his QB of the future (too many sacks, hits, etc.) until he's put more pieces in place?

Just looking at the other side of the coin.

thats a possibility.. thats why we need to keep both.. and not just think lets trade him while we can get something for him...

No.. Keep both.

Not gonna happen..one or both of these guys are gone..Mangini can't keep bouncing back n forth.. if at the end of the season both are unsatisfactory..get a another QB..and BTW Quinn's agent isn't going to keep him here if he's relegated to being a backup..he's losing money..

Getting another QB ... we would start back over from square one..

for right now.. we need to keep both.. 5 years from now.. hopefully all the "other" pieces will be together, and we can just plug in a QB..

Typical thinking..if a GM/HC know how to evaluate... a good one can be found in the draft if there's one..otherwise I'd want a FA QB.. which would not set the franchise back at all..I've been wanting one since 05 when Phil took over.