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I know, I was agreeing with you. I don't think Pit was disagreeing either... just more talking points.

Not media. Actual court cases and investigations. Usually led by Republicans.



You are missing a key distinction of the actual debate by your phrasing above. IMO, that's the only reason why this nonsense is still going on.
Nobody has said that no illegals have voted. There are documented cases of people (not just illegals) casting votes when they shouldn't.
What is being argued is whether this has happened on a large enough scale to have any sort of effect on election outcomes. This is what has been alleged by Trump and which is verifiably false. Despite numerous allegations and investigations, this has been consistently debunked over and over. This is largely because there is no credible evidence of widespread and/or coordinated voter fraud.
Similarly, there is little to no disagreement on the idea that non-citizens should NOT vote. Go ahead and scrape the far corners/bowels of the internet for a 'gotcha' video, but nobody (at least on here) is trying to argue that non-citizens (legal or illegal) should vote.

As I stated earlier in the thread, my daughter came to the same conclusion.

Our personal experience was that the passport was easier to obtain than a real ID.

Your experience may be different, but our experience is what the statement is based upon.

This isn't directly about the Iran war but is about nuclear weapons in the region so rather than start a new thread I thought I would just add this here........

Trump places new condition on signed Saudi nuclear deal, says country must join Abraham Accords

President Donald Trump has placed a new condition on a nuclear agreement with Saudi Arabia a day after formally approving it, saying the country now must join the Abraham Accords.

Trump wrote in a post on social media Thursday that the deal, which has already been signed, “will be approved,” but added, that it “is totally subject to Saudi Arabia joining the very respected and successful Abraham Accords.”

The president also emphasized in the post that there would be “no enrichment” even though the agreement could lead to the country enriching its own fuel for civilian reactors.

On Wednesday, Energy Secretary Chris Wright and his Saudi counterpart signed the agreement, which provides Saudi Arabia with a civilian nuclear program.

The deal has already sparked criticism from Israeli officials and is expected to draw scrutiny on Capitol Hill.

CNN previously reported that before uranium enrichment could begin, a joint US-Saudi team would explore whether it is warranted and commercially viable, and Americans would build the facility without transferring the sensitive technology to Saudi Arabia.

The agreement also includes limits on what inspections might be carried out on the Saudi program, according to US officials and sources.

The kingdom is notably not required to sign a standard agreement called the Additional Protocol with the International Atomic Energy Agency, like the United Arab Emirates did in 2009 when it signed a “gold standard” nuclear cooperation deal with the US, an official said.

Saudi Arabia has previously been resistant to efforts to join the Abraham Accords, an effort started during Trump’s first term and expanded during his second to establish diplomatic ties between Israel and its neighbors in the Middle East.

Diplomatic normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel has historically been a condition of Washington agreeing to nuclear cooperation with Riyadh, a source familiar with the matter told CNN. The condition stood as recently as the Biden administration, said the source, who requested anonymity to discuss diplomatic discussions.

But that changed when Israel’s response to the October 7, 2023, Hamas attack made normalization “untenable” for the Saudis, the source said. That led Biden-era negotiators to seek “less-for-less” from the prospective nuclear deal.

It is unclear what impact Trump’s social media missive will have on the signed agreement.

CNN has reached out to the Saudi embassy for comment and to the White House about whether the deal is paused until Saudi Arabia signs on to the Abraham Accords.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office applauded Trump’s latest post. “As President Trump has said, Saudi Arabia’s joining of the Abraham Accords would be an historic leap forward for peace in the Middle East.”

https://www.cnn.com/2026/07/23/politics/saudi-arabia-nuclear-deal-trump

If trump has proven anything, it's that any deal made with the U.S. isn't worth the paper it's written on. And here he has proven it yet again. This is why the world can no longer trust the U.S. Anything our government has agreed to can be done away with by a single election. In this case an agreement can be broken and changed overnight. What makes him think anyone would treat him any differently than he treats others? And why should they?

Paris Climate Agreement: The U.S. formally exited this UN framework for combating global warming.

Iran Nuclear Deal (JCPOA): Trump abandoned this international agreement, which was designed to limit Iran's nuclear program, and re-imposed heavy sanctions.

NAFTA: Trump replaced the North American Free Trade Agreement with the U.S.-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA), fulfilling his pledge to renegotiate what he considered a "bad deal".

INF Treaty: The U.S. withdrew from the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty with Russia, a foundational Cold War-era arms control agreement.

Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP): Shortly after taking office, Trump withdrew the U.S. from this sweeping proposed trade deal with 11 Asia-Pacific nations.

There certainly is help in some states but not neatly all. The issue is this will be, if passed, law across the nation. In many states such policies do not exist. I believe if you are going to pass a law nationwide the same should hold true in deferring the cost of the "required I.D." nationwide as well.

Only nobody has said that.

"If the Browns improve in all the factors that determine wins and Verse is above average as a replacement. Myles leaving may not make that much difference."

That really was my entire point.

I agree with what you're saying, I just don't think corner is the best example. I think you could point to the rest of the offensive line and linebackers, overall. We have largely mid-to-low FAs that have enjoyed a LOT of success despite the ragtag nature in which they were acquired. Yes, we have Graham... but otherwise the defensive front is made up of a third rounder, a fourth rounder, and then low draft picks and FAs. Same with the linebackers. I think the impact of going to Garrett to Verse will be felt in their stats/performance, if anywhere.

It has not been debunked. Just because some media member says the narrative that no illegals have voted does not make it true.

These go hand in hand…

I would never at this point in their careers compare Verse and Garrett as equals. I don’t think I have painted that picture to this point.

In baseball you are talking about replacing an every day starter with a minor league player. Jared Verse is not a minor league player, he is a year 3 starter in the NFL who has proven to be, at worst, a top 15 pass rusher playing out of position from his college career. That alone closes some of the gap in replacing Myles with say a second round rookie, whom I would equate to a minor league baseball player.

To Pit’s point, Jared is 5 years younger. Maybe it doesn’t happen this year, but the age factor is going to close the gap even further. The fact that both players are switching roles, Verse going back to his natural position and Myles changing to a position he has never played before could easily narrow that gap even more. Maybe Garrett thrives at OLB and goes for 30 sacks and 70 pressures. We’ll see what happens, but it isn’t cut and dry that they are automatically going to lose 2-4 games based on WAR.

Myles allowed Berry to have lesser talent at other positions. I don't mean inferior talent, simply a more defined attribute. By this, I mean Berry can hire a corner who plays very well against short to intermediate passes. Why? Because QBs won't have a high percentage of deep throws. He can also add quick linebackers, because the attention is focused on Myles. This defense was built around Garrett and Ward.

I have no doubt Verse is/will become a great defensive lineman. My concern is the talent gap between Verse and Garrett. You can post all the individual stats you want comparing the two, but it's misleading because Garrett received a higher percentage of attention than Verse.

The big question this season will be the level of talent on the defense now that Garrett is no longer there. I feel this defense was not built to the level of this new defensive line.

I am also not convinced the offense is capable of picking up the slack. What you have is a decline in defense with a mild increase in offense. Will it be enough to improve overall from last year?

It's hard not to laugh at this. You are telling people they have their head in the sand while parroting a narrative that has been debunked over and over and over again.

For the cost part, there are programs to mitigate or defer the financial cost of getting a license or state ID.

No doubt that the Myles trade will be tracked for years.

I have not watched Verse. He was the defensive ROY.

Sacks IMO are overblown as a stat. They are important but pressures are also.

Jared Verse ranked 3rd among all NFL defenders in quarterback pressures over the last two seasons, trailing only Micah Parsons (119) and Myles Garrett (109). Verse recorded 99 total pressures during this span, keeping him within striking distance of Garrett's mark.

I am looking forward to watching him play.

No they're not. Just another obstacle for those with less. None of this is hard to understand.

It is easier to get a passport than a real ID. But you can use a passport to get a real ID. So the only issue is cost, and passports are not cheap.

I at no point put my head in the sand. You have been shown just how few illegal votes were cast. And there hasn't been a single case of it shown to having occurred because of early voting. Rather than actually addressing those points you just drone on and on making false accusations and call millions upon millions of legal votes cast as cheating.

Trump's tactics don't work on everyone. Repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it true. It does however seem to have worked on you.

I'll just ask if we are talking strictly of this coming season or over the long haul? Vers is 5 years younger than Myles. How much longer do you think it will be before the age difference shows up on the stat sheets?

And not an attempt to make Vers look like as great a player as Myles, at the same time in Myles rookie year he had 7 sacks. In his third season he had 10 sacks and in his fourth he had 12 sacks. And while i think everyone will agree they aren't the same player Vers had 7.5 sacks in his second season.

One thing that people also seem to be glossing over is that in LA Vers has been playing out of position. They have had him playing at OLB when he was drafted and his natural position was DE which he will be playing now.

I'm certainly not trying to make the argument that there wasn't some degree of a downgrade at the position when Myles was traded. I'm just not so sure that downgrade will be as significant as some people are expecting it to be. Then there are the draft picks included in the trade.

The same process that millions of voters vote legally also allows illegal votes to happen. You can put your head in the sand and act like elections have not been stolen but they have. The process is broken. Keep it simple.

The election process? This was the process to get the photo ID you claim voters should have. The DMV isn't in charge of or run the elections.


So you should be able to register to vote before you get your ID?


Why? To vote early you go to a legal polling place and go through the exact same process you do on election day. What is your fixation with this?


You have been shown time and time again that you are just plain wrong. Millions upon millions of Americans cast legal and valid votes through both early voting and voting by mail. Casting a legal vote is not cheating. Why do you think legal votes are cheating?


Voting is a constitutional right and not a game. Your example is ridiculous. There is no game clock and nobody is "using" illegal players.

I'll grant you one thing. If nothing else you are hilarious!

Yes, I'm set to get my license renewed in September. It's $28 here in Tennessee. Not much at all.... to me. My dad taught me something when I was younger. Of course things were much less expensive then. I wanted a new basketball and told him it was "only $12.99". And his response was "That doesn't sound like much unless you only have $10."

It's not that he didn't have the money. In fact he bought me the basketball. But he helped me to learn about putting things things into perspective. What's cheap or inexpensive is relative to how much money you have. My point was only that it shouldn't cost anyone money to have the right to vote. Some argue that's the form of a poll tax and while a small amount to most of us, I still don't think that justifies someone having to spend money out of pocket in order to qualify to vote.

I need a license to drive. Which is a privilege and not a right. So it's not an issue for me. But if a person must get an I.D. strictly for voting purposes that's a different animal to me.

New Jersey proves how corrupt the election processes have become. Well over 6,000 illegals registered. That is alarming. They should stick to fundamental rules. You register. You get ID. You should your ID and it is checked off vs the register. You vote between 6am and 7pm at your registered polling place. If your out of town you get an absentee ballot at the courthouse by showing your ID and being checked vs a register. Everything else. Early voting, Mail in ballots, drop locations, etc... are all forms of cheating. NFL games are played in a time span. Teas can only score points during that time span and only by members of their teams by a roster of legal players. You cannot use illegal players. Cannot score points before or after the game is played. Keep it simple. Everything else is cheating.....

Then stop making them.

Over time I have become increasingly curious how many illegal drugs you did in your youth. And if the answer is none you may be one of those rare exceptions where doing them may have helped.

So no response about New Jersey then I take it?

To your point, it should NOT be as much of a pain to get your govt-issued ID as it is now... though I think COVID actually helped push this in the right direction. Currently, you can renew your passport online if you meet certain criteria (one of which, notably, is that you're not changing your name or other personal info). I highlight that because we're not there yet, but it's very possible and we are moving in that direction. It's been argued in one of these threads that the cost of obtaining a state ID is actually not very high.