|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093
Dawg Talker
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093 |
Quote:
New York Review of Books
Why We’re in a New Gilded Age
Paul Krugman
Review of: Capital in the Twenty-First Century by Thomas Piketty, translated from the French by Arthur Goldhammer, Belknap Press/Harvard University Press, 685 pp.
Thomas Piketty, professor at the Paris School of Economics, isn’t a household name, although that may change with the English-language publication of his magnificent, sweeping meditation on inequality, Capital in the Twenty-First Century. Yet his influence runs deep. It has become a commonplace to say that we are living in a second Gilded Age—or, as Piketty likes to put it, a second Belle Époque—defined by the incredible rise of the “one percent.” But it has only become a commonplace thanks to Piketty’s work. In particular, he and a few colleagues (notably Anthony Atkinson at Oxford and Emmanuel Saez at Berkeley) have pioneered statistical techniques that make it possible to track the concentration of income and wealth deep into the past—back to the early twentieth century for America and Britain, and all the way to the late eighteenth century for France.
The result has been a revolution in our understanding of long-term trends in inequality. Before this revolution, most discussions of economic disparity more or less ignored the very rich. Some economists (not to mention politicians) tried to shout down any mention of inequality at all: “Of the tendencies that are harmful to sound economics, the most seductive, and in my opinion the most poisonous, is to focus on questions of distribution,” declared Robert Lucas Jr. of the University of Chicago, the most influential macroeconomist of his generation, in 2004. But even those willing to discuss inequality generally focused on the gap between the poor or the working class and the merely well-off, not the truly rich—on college graduates whose wage gains outpaced those of less-educated workers, or on the comparative good fortune of the top fifth of the population compared with the bottom four fifths, not on the rapidly rising incomes of executives and bankers.
It therefore came as a revelation when Piketty and his colleagues showed that incomes of the now famous “one percent,” and of even narrower groups, are actually the big story in rising inequality. And this discovery came with a second revelation: talk of a second Gilded Age, which might have seemed like hyperbole, was nothing of the kind. In America in particular the share of national income going to the top one percent has followed a great U-shaped arc. Before World War I the one percent received around a fifth of total income in both Britain and the United States. By 1950 that share had been cut by more than half. But since 1980 the one percent has seen its income share surge again—and in the United States it’s back to what it was a century ago.
Still, today’s economic elite is very different from that of the nineteenth century, isn’t it? Back then, great wealth tended to be inherited; aren’t today’s economic elite people who earned their position? Well, Piketty tells us that this isn’t as true as you think, and that in any case this state of affairs may prove no more durable than the middle-class society that flourished for a generation after World War II. The big idea of Capital in the Twenty-First Century is that we haven’t just gone back to nineteenth-century levels of income inequality, we’re also on a path back to “patrimonial capitalism,” in which the commanding heights of the economy are controlled not by talented individuals but by family dynasties.
It’s a remarkable claim—and precisely because it’s so remarkable, it needs to be examined carefully and critically. Before I get into that, however, let me say right away that Piketty has written a truly superb book. It’s a work that melds grand historical sweep—when was the last time you heard an economist invoke Jane Austen and Balzac?—with painstaking data analysis. And even though Piketty mocks the economics profession for its “childish passion for mathematics,” underlying his discussion is a tour de force of economic modeling, an approach that integrates the analysis of economic growth with that of the distribution of income and wealth. This is a book that will change both the way we think about society and the way we do economics.
1.
What do we know about economic inequality, and about when do we know it? Until the Piketty revolution swept through the field, most of what we knew about income and wealth inequality came from surveys, in which randomly chosen households are asked to fill in a questionnaire, and their answers are tallied up to produce a statistical portrait of the whole. The international gold standard for such surveys is the annual survey conducted once a year by the Census Bureau. The Federal Reserve also conducts a triennial survey of the distribution of wealth.
These two surveys are an essential guide to the changing shape of American society. Among other things, they have long pointed to a dramatic shift in the process of US economic growth, one that started around 1980. Before then, families at all levels saw their incomes grow more or less in tandem with the growth of the economy as a whole. After 1980, however, the lion’s share of gains went to the top end of the income distribution, with families in the bottom half lagging far behind.
Historically, other countries haven’t been equally good at keeping track of who gets what; but this situation has improved over time, in large part thanks to the efforts of the Luxembourg Income Study (with which I will soon be affiliated). And the growing availability of survey data that can be compared across nations has led to further important insights. In particular, we now know both that the United States has a much more unequal distribution of income than other advanced countries and that much of this difference in outcomes can be attributed directly to government action. European nations in general have highly unequal incomes from market activity, just like the United States, although possibly not to the same extent. But they do far more redistribution through taxes and transfers than America does, leading to much less inequality in disposable incomes.
Yet for all their usefulness, survey data have important limitations. They tend to undercount or miss entirely the income that accrues to the handful of individuals at the very top of the income scale. They also have limited historical depth. Even US survey data only take us to 1947.
Enter Piketty and his colleagues, who have turned to an entirely different source of information: tax records. This isn’t a new idea. Indeed, early analyses of income distribution relied on tax data because they had little else to go on. Piketty et al. have, however, found ways to merge tax data with other sources to produce information that crucially complements survey evidence. In particular, tax data tell us a great deal about the elite. And tax-based estimates can reach much further into the past: the United States has had an income tax since 1913, Britain since 1909. France, thanks to elaborate estate tax collection and record-keeping, has wealth data reaching back to the late eighteenth century.
Exploiting these data isn’t simple. But by using all the tricks of the trade, plus some educated guesswork, Piketty is able to produce a summary of the fall and rise of extreme inequality over the course of the past century. It looks like Table 1 on this page.
As I said, describing our current era as a new Gilded Age or Belle Époque isn’t hyperbole; it’s the simple truth. But how did this happen?
2.
Piketty throws down the intellectual gauntlet right away, with his book’s very title: Capital in the Twenty-First Century. Are economists still allowed to talk like that?
It’s not just the obvious allusion to Marx that makes this title so startling. By invoking capital right from the beginning, Piketty breaks ranks with most modern discussions of inequality, and hearkens back to an older tradition.
The general presumption of most inequality researchers has been that earned income, usually salaries, is where all the action is, and that income from capital is neither important nor interesting. Piketty shows, however, that even today income from capital, not earnings, predominates at the top of the income distribution. He also shows that in the past—during Europe’s Belle Époque and, to a lesser extent, America’s Gilded Age—unequal ownership of assets, not unequal pay, was the prime driver of income disparities. And he argues that we’re on our way back to that kind of society. Nor is this casual speculation on his part. For all that Capital in the Twenty-First Century is a work of principled empiricism, it is very much driven by a theoretical frame that attempts to unify discussion of economic growth and the distribution of both income and wealth. Basically, Piketty sees economic history as the story of a race between capital accumulation and other factors driving growth, mainly population growth and technological progress.
To be sure, this is a race that can have no permanent victor: over the very long run, the stock of capital and total income must grow at roughly the same rate. But one side or the other can pull ahead for decades at a time. On the eve of World War I, Europe had accumulated capital worth six or seven times national income. Over the next four decades, however, a combination of physical destruction and the diversion of savings into war efforts cut that ratio in half. Capital accumulation resumed after World War II, but this was a period of spectacular economic growth—the Trente Glorieuses, or “Glorious Thirty” years; so the ratio of capital to income remained low. Since the 1970s, however, slowing growth has meant a rising capital ratio, so capital and wealth have been trending steadily back toward Belle Époque levels. And this accumulation of capital, says Piketty, will eventually recreate Belle Époque–style inequality unless opposed by progressive taxation.
Why? It’s all about r versus g—the rate of return on capital versus the rate of economic growth.
Just about all economic models tell us that if g falls—which it has since 1970, a decline that is likely to continue due to slower growth in the working-age population and slower technological progress—r will fall too. But Piketty asserts that r will fall less than g. This doesn’t have to be true. However, if it’s sufficiently easy to replace workers with machines—if, to use the technical jargon, the elasticity of substitution between capital and labor is greater than one—slow growth, and the resulting rise in the ratio of capital to income, will indeed widen the gap between r and g. And Piketty argues that this is what the historical record shows will happen.
If he’s right, one immediate consequence will be a redistribution of income away from labor and toward holders of capital. The conventional wisdom has long been that we needn’t worry about that happening, that the shares of capital and labor respectively in total income are highly stable over time. Over the very long run, however, this hasn’t been true. In Britain, for example, capital’s share of income—whether in the form of corporate profits, dividends, rents, or sales of property, for example—fell from around 40 percent before World War I to barely 20 percent circa 1970, and has since bounced roughly halfway back. The historical arc is less clear-cut in the United States, but here, too, there is a redistribution in favor of capital underway. Notably, corporate profits have soared since the financial crisis began, while wages—including the wages of the highly educated—have stagnated.
A rising share of capital, in turn, directly increases inequality, because ownership of capital is always much more unequally distributed than labor income. But the effects don’t stop there, because when the rate of return on capital greatly exceeds the rate of economic growth, “the past tends to devour the future”: society inexorably tends toward dominance by inherited wealth.
Consider how this worked in Belle Époque Europe. At the time, owners of capital could expect to earn 4–5 percent on their investments, with minimal taxation; meanwhile economic growth was only around one percent. So wealthy individuals could easily reinvest enough of their income to ensure that their wealth and hence their incomes were growing faster than the economy, reinforcing their economic dominance, even while skimming enough off to live lives of great luxury.
And what happened when these wealthy individuals died? They passed their wealth on—again, with minimal taxation—to their heirs. Money passed on to the next generation accounted for 20 to 25 percent of annual income; the great bulk of wealth, around 90 percent, was inherited rather than saved out of earned income. And this inherited wealth was concentrated in the hands of a very small minority: in 1910 the richest one percent controlled 60 percent of the wealth in France; in Britain, 70 percent.
No wonder, then, that nineteenth-century novelists were obsessed with inheritance. Piketty discusses at length the lecture that the scoundrel Vautrin gives to Rastignac in Balzac’s Père Goriot, whose gist is that a most successful career could not possibly deliver more than a fraction of the wealth Rastignac could acquire at a stroke by marrying a rich man’s daughter. And it turns out that Vautrin was right: being in the top one percent of nineteenth-century heirs and simply living off your inherited wealth gave you around two and a half times the standard of living you could achieve by clawing your way into the top one percent of paid workers.
You might be tempted to say that modern society is nothing like that. In fact, however, both capital income and inherited wealth, though less important than they were in the Belle Époque, are still powerful drivers of inequality—and their importance is growing. In France, Piketty shows, the inherited share of total wealth dropped sharply during the era of wars and postwar fast growth; circa 1970 it was less than 50 percent. But it’s now back up to 70 percent, and rising. Correspondingly, there has been a fall and then a rise in the importance of inheritance in conferring elite status: the living standard of the top one percent of heirs fell below that of the top one percent of earners between 1910 and 1950, but began rising again after 1970. It’s not all the way back to Rasti-gnac levels, but once again it’s generally more valuable to have the right parents (or to marry into having the right in-laws) than to have the right job.
And this may only be the beginning. Figure 1 on this page shows Piketty’s estimates of global r and g over the long haul, suggesting that the era of equalization now lies behind us, and that the conditions are now ripe for the reestablishment of patrimonial capitalism.
Given this picture, why does inherited wealth play as small a part in today’s public discourse as it does? Piketty suggests that the very size of inherited fortunes in a way makes them invisible: “Wealth is so concentrated that a large segment of society is virtually unaware of its existence, so that some people imagine that it belongs to surreal or mysterious entities.” This is a very good point. But it’s surely not the whole explanation. For the fact is that the most conspicuous example of soaring inequality in today’s world—the rise of the very rich one percent in the Anglo-Saxon world, especially the United States—doesn’t have all that much to do with capital accumulation, at least so far. It has more to do with remarkably high compensation and incomes.
3.
Capital in the Twenty-First Century is, as I hope I’ve made clear, an awesome work. At a time when the concentration of wealth and income in the hands of a few has resurfaced as a central political issue, Piketty doesn’t just offer invaluable documentation of what is happening, with unmatched historical depth. He also offers what amounts to a unified field theory of inequality, one that integrates economic growth, the distribution of income between capital and labor, and the distribution of wealth and income among individuals into a single frame.
And yet there is one thing that slightly detracts from the achievement—a sort of intellectual sleight of hand, albeit one that doesn’t actually involve any deception or malfeasance on Piketty’s part. Still, here it is: the main reason there has been a hankering for a book like this is the rise, not just of the one percent, but specifically of the American one percent. Yet that rise, it turns out, has happened for reasons that lie beyond the scope of Piketty’s grand thesis.
Piketty is, of course, too good and too honest an economist to try to gloss over inconvenient facts. “US inequality in 2010,” he declares, “is quantitatively as extreme as in old Europe in the first decade of the twentieth century, but the structure of that inequality is rather clearly different.” Indeed, what we have seen in America and are starting to see elsewhere is something “radically new”—the rise of “supersalaries.”
Capital still matters; at the very highest reaches of society, income from capital still exceeds income from wages, salaries, and bonuses. Piketty estimates that the increased inequality of capital income accounts for about a third of the overall rise in US inequality. But wage income at the top has also surged. Real wages for most US workers have increased little if at all since the early 1970s, but wages for the top one percent of earners have risen 165 percent, and wages for the top 0.1 percent have risen 362 percent. If Rastignac were alive today, Vautrin might concede that he could in fact do as well by becoming a hedge fund manager as he could by marrying wealth.
What explains this dramatic rise in earnings inequality, with the lion’s share of the gains going to people at the very top? Some US economists suggest that it’s driven by changes in technology. In a famous 1981 paper titled “The Economics of Superstars,” the Chicago economist Sherwin Rosen argued that modern communications technology, by extending the reach of talented individuals, was creating winner-take-all markets in which a handful of exceptional individuals reap huge rewards, even if they’re only modestly better at what they do than far less well paid rivals.
Piketty is unconvinced. As he notes, conservative economists love to talk about the high pay of performers of one kind or another, such as movie and sports stars, as a way of suggesting that high incomes really are deserved. But such people actually make up only a tiny fraction of the earnings elite. What one finds instead is mainly executives of one sort or another—people whose performance is, in fact, quite hard to assess or give a monetary value to.
Who determines what a corporate CEO is worth? Well, there’s normally a compensation committee, appointed by the CEO himself. In effect, Piketty argues, high-level executives set their own pay, constrained by social norms rather than any sort of market discipline. And he attributes skyrocketing pay at the top to an erosion of these norms. In effect, he attributes soaring wage incomes at the top to social and political rather than strictly economic forces.
Now, to be fair, he then advances a possible economic analysis of changing norms, arguing that falling tax rates for the rich have in effect emboldened the earnings elite. When a top manager could expect to keep only a small fraction of the income he might get by flouting social norms and extracting a very large salary, he might have decided that the opprobrium wasn’t worth it. Cut his marginal tax rate drastically, and he may behave differently. And as more and more of the supersalaried flout the norms, the norms themselves will change.
There’s a lot to be said for this diagnosis, but it clearly lacks the rigor and universality of Piketty’s analysis of the distribution of and returns to wealth. Also, I don’t think Capital in the Twenty-First Century adequately answers the most telling criticism of the executive power hypothesis: the concentration of very high incomes in finance, where performance actually can, after a fashion, be evaluated. I didn’t mention hedge fund managers idly: such people are paid based on their ability to attract clients and achieve investment returns. You can question the social value of modern finance, but the Gordon Gekkos out there are clearly good at something, and their rise can’t be attributed solely to power relations, although I guess you could argue that willingness to engage in morally dubious wheeling and dealing, like willingness to flout pay norms, is encouraged by low marginal tax rates.
Overall, I’m more or less persuaded by Piketty’s explanation of the surge in wage inequality, though his failure to include deregulation is a significant disappointment. But as I said, his analysis here lacks the rigor of his capital analysis, not to mention its sheer, exhilarating intellectual elegance.
Yet we shouldn’t overreact to this. Even if the surge in US inequality to date has been driven mainly by wage income, capital has nonetheless been significant too. And in any case, the story looking forward is likely to be quite different. The current generation of the very rich in America may consist largely of executives rather than rentiers, people who live off accumulated capital, but these executives have heirs. And America two decades from now could be a rentier-dominated society even more unequal than Belle Époque Europe.
But this doesn’t have to happen.
4.
At times, Piketty almost seems to offer a deterministic view of history, in which everything flows from the rates of population growth and technological progress. In reality, however, Capital in the Twenty-First Century makes it clear that public policy can make an enormous difference, that even if the underlying economic conditions point toward extreme inequality, what Piketty calls “a drift toward oligarchy” can be halted and even reversed if the body politic so chooses.
The key point is that when we make the crucial comparison between the rate of return on wealth and the rate of economic growth, what matters is the after-tax return on wealth. So progressive taxation—in particular taxation of wealth and inheritance—can be a powerful force limiting inequality. Indeed, Piketty concludes his masterwork with a plea for just such a form of taxation. Unfortunately, the history covered in his own book does not encourage optimism.
It’s true that during much of the twentieth century strongly progressive taxation did indeed help reduce the concentration of income and wealth, and you might imagine that high taxation at the top is the natural political outcome when democracy confronts high inequality. Piketty, however, rejects this conclusion; the triumph of progressive taxation during the twentieth century, he contends, was “an ephemeral product of chaos.” Absent the wars and upheavals of Europe’s modern Thirty Years’ War, he suggests, nothing of the kind would have happened.
As evidence, he offers the example of France’s Third Republic. The Republic’s official ideology was highly egalitarian. Yet wealth and income were nearly as concentrated, economic privilege almost as dominated by inheritance, as they were in the aristocratic constitutional monarchy across the English Channel. And public policy did almost nothing to oppose the economic domination by rentiers: estate taxes, in particular, were almost laughably low.
Why didn’t the universally enfranchised citizens of France vote in politicians who would take on the rentier class? Well, then as now great wealth purchased great influence—not just over policies, but over public discourse. Upton Sinclair famously declared that “it is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” Piketty, looking at his own nation’s history, arrives at a similar observation: “The experience of France in the Belle Époque proves, if proof were needed, that no hypocrisy is too great when economic and financial elites are obliged to defend their interest.”
The same phenomenon is visible today. In fact, a curious aspect of the American scene is that the politics of inequality seem if anything to be running ahead of the reality. As we’ve seen, at this point the US economic elite owes its status mainly to wages rather than capital income. Nonetheless, conservative economic rhetoric already emphasizes and celebrates capital rather than labor—“job creators,” not workers.
In 2012 Eric Cantor, the House majority leader, chose to mark Labor Day—Labor Day!—with a tweet honoring business owners:
Today, we celebrate those who have taken a risk, worked hard, built a business and earned their own success.
Perhaps chastened by the reaction, he reportedly felt the need to remind his colleagues at a subsequent GOP retreat that most people don’t own their own businesses—but this in itself shows how thoroughly the party identifies itself with capital to the virtual exclusion of labor.
Nor is this orientation toward capital just rhetorical. Tax burdens on high-income Americans have fallen across the board since the 1970s, but the biggest reductions have come on capital income—including a sharp fall in corporate taxes, which indirectly benefits stockholders—and inheritance. Sometimes it seems as if a substantial part of our political class is actively working to restore Piketty’s patrimonial capitalism. And if you look at the sources of political donations, many of which come from wealthy families, this possibility is a lot less outlandish than it might seem.
Piketty ends Capital in the Twenty-First Century with a call to arms—a call, in particular, for wealth taxes, global if possible, to restrain the growing power of inherited wealth. It’s easy to be cynical about the prospects for anything of the kind. But surely Piketty’s masterly diagnosis of where we are and where we’re heading makes such a thing considerably more likely. So Capital in the Twenty-First Century is an extremely important book on all fronts. Piketty has transformed our economic discourse; we’ll never talk about wealth and inequality the same way we used to.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives...%20Gilded%20Age
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259 |
Great article find Mantis, thank you! Here is a great and interactive tool showing tax brackets since 1913 and the tax burden: http://qz.com/74271/income-tax-rates-since-1913/Notice how the middle class tax burden (even up to 100k) has stayed fairly consistent since the end of WW2, but the very wealthy has seen their tax burden cut by 50% or more in that time, the largest drop as a part of the tax reform brought by Ronald Reagan's administration. Now there were tangible side effects to supply side economics, such as huge increases in the deficit. But I think time is also beginning to show there are other downsides as well. This rampant increase in wealth at the upper echelons of society appears to be having the effect of compression in the lower ranks, and could even be contributing to a 2 class system. Some economists even argue that the middle class is a misnomer anyway, but I disagree with that assertion. However what could happen though is over time the middle class becomes smaller and smaller and the dollar amounts move higher and higher to compensate for economic factors. Remember a time when families had a stay at home mom? I'm not saying women should stay at home but there was a time that was a viable option. Many middle class families I know can't lose that spouses income though. If the household income is effectively split in half between spouses, that sends a message to me that the middle class income requirements have moved up significantly since the boomer years. This country is heading for a correction in a big way I think. We continue to pay things forward financially and the pied piper will come calling sooner than we think.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,495 Likes: 959
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,495 Likes: 959 |
Making 10 mil today isn't the same as making 10 mil in 1950.
You can back it down from here.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
French economist...must not respond..must not respond...crap here I go.
Holy crap they taxed the rich 85-90% in 1956? I'm sorry but that is just gross, like really really gross. Frankly 35% is still pretty gross if you ask me. Imagine you earn a million dollars a year and the government takes 85% of that? How on earth can people consider this fair?
If someone earns their money without using violence then it is morally theirs. All of this money grubbing "you owe money to the poor" is nonsense and frankly pretty gross. Not only do you owe the poor money, but politicians and central bankers will be the ones ensuring it is distributed fairly and intelligently...you know..because they have such great business acumen and aren't regarded as being sleazy greedy sociopaths.
I can ramble all day long but it is fruitless really. In the end politics isn't going to be a viable option for moving humanity in any positive direction.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204
~ Legend
|
~ Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204 |
They're not giving people paychecks with the money they tax from the super rich. They reinvest it into the community through schools and parks. Which is why you see some very good communities and some very poor ones.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,822 Likes: 515
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,822 Likes: 515 |
Quote:
They're not giving people paychecks with the money they tax from the super rich.
They aren't? Hmmm.......how do gov't. employees get paid?
Quote:
They reinvest it into the community through schools and parks. Which is why you see some very good communities and some very poor ones.
I'd love to see the numbers. Give the gov't. $1, how much of it is "re-invested", vs. how much of it goes to pay gov't. employees.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204
~ Legend
|
~ Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204 |
So paying people for work is redistribution of wealth? What?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,822 Likes: 515
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,822 Likes: 515 |
Quote:
So paying people for work is redistribution of wealth? What?
Yeah, that's exactly what I said. 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,480 Likes: 26
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,480 Likes: 26 |
Quote:
French economist...must not respond..must not respond...crap here I go.
Holy crap they taxed the rich 85-90% in 1956? I'm sorry but that is just gross, like really really gross. Frankly 35% is still pretty gross if you ask me. Imagine you earn a million dollars a year and the government takes 85% of that? How on earth can people consider this fair?
If someone earns their money without using violence then it is morally theirs. All of this money grubbing "you owe money to the poor" is nonsense and frankly pretty gross. Not only do you owe the poor money, but politicians and central bankers will be the ones ensuring it is distributed fairly and intelligently...you know..because they have such great business acumen and aren't regarded as being sleazy greedy sociopaths.
I can ramble all day long but it is fruitless really. In the end politics isn't going to be a viable option for moving humanity in any positive direction.
I haven't had time to read the above article yet, but I plan on it.
You need to look at effective tax rate when comparing IMO. Marginal rates are something that Liberals like to use as it sounds like the "rich" are getting off easy. It is apples and oranges compared to how deductions are now vs. then. If you look at effective tax rates, which is really the only one that should be looked at, they have remained very, very steady over the course of the last 100 years.
I do agree that 35% is way to high as well, unless everyone was paying 35%. Everyone should be taxed at the same percentage, or at a maximum 2 brackets, a 15% and 20% one. My favorite idea is Fair Tax.
I keep telling myself I'm going to keep track of all of the taxes that I pay for a year sometime (meaning saving every receipt and totaling it up), but I start in January and get disgusted by March normally and just give up keeping track so as not to spiral into depression.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204
~ Legend
|
~ Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204 |
Quote:
Quote:
So paying people for work is redistribution of wealth? What?
Yeah, that's exactly what I said.
No, that's literally what you said. If you don't think paying for people is reinvesting then you're clueless. What's a school if it doesn't have "government employees" working in it? An empty building that does nothing for a community.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259 |
Quote:
Making 10 mil today isn't the same as making 10 mil in 1950.
You can back it down from here.
Please quote me where I said it was the same? The figures in the article I linked is normalized against inflation, so when the graph for 10M a year in 2012 is compared against 1955 receipts, the adjusted income is 1.16M, a full order of magnitude lower. So in 1955 your take home pay would be 130,700 (rounded down a bit), which adjusted back to 2012 dollars is $1,104,694.02. I'm pretty sure you're going to be able to make rent 
Look I know taxes aren't a popular subject, but since we've been slashing them, one of the side effects has been the widening of the federal deficit. Here's a graph (source: http://stats.areppim.com/stats/stats_usxrecxspendxdlr.htm )

Now both sides of the aisle like to take credit for the Clinton surplus, because Congress raised taxes above $150,000 in 1993 and then Clinton flip flopped on taxes in 1995 and had reductions in your more wealth driven taxation like capital gains. I believe the combination proved to be fruitful. The additional taxation helped reduce the deficit and then tax cuts a few years later spurred economic growth. But the actions were entirely politically motivated, not economic. Clinton wanted to win re-election and pandered to the voter's wallet to do it, just like every president has for a long time. The Clinton surplus in my mind was a fluke of fortune but one that can be modelled.
Bottom line, the deficit is wider than ever before and no one wants to pay up. It resonates with me like other great civilizations that are just past their glory days. Like the Romans who thought they were too big to fail.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
they taxed the rich 85-90% in 1956?
No, they did not. This is an often-cited by those politicians looking to raise taxes on the rich, but has been shown incorrect.
here's one article: http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ib_19.htm#.U06GvlVdUrc
And, this is the stuff that drives me batty on figuring out macroeconomics is that it is next to impossible to trust the source on most information.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280 |
Quote:
Remember a time when families had a stay at home mom? I'm not saying women should stay at home but there was a time that was a viable option. Many middle class families I know can't lose that spouses income though. If the household income is effectively split in half between spouses, that sends a message to me that the middle class income requirements have moved up significantly since the boomer years.
I'm a little confused by your last sentence but I remember a time when a lot of families only had 1 car and they kept it for 12-15 years and they worked on it themselves, they had a relatively small house they lived in for 30 years, a week at the lake or down to the local beach was a vacation, they had 1 television, no cell phones, and going out to dinner was kind of a big deal... That same family today has 2 or 3 cars and they buy a new one every 3 or 4 years, a much larger house, they go to the bahamas and they go to Vegas just for the weekend, they have a $150/month cell phone bill and they eat out twice a week.
A big part of the reason why middle class folks can't live on one salary is because they haven't set up their lifestyle to do it. A couple meets, both have a job, they are enjoying the good life, they have a lot of money for a young couple because of the dual incomes so they set up their lifestyle based on those 2 incomes. Then children come, the mortgage payment is set, the expectations are that they can live a certain way so that second income is required, not just to live but to live the way they want to live.
I'm not blaming anybody that this notion that you can't get by on one decent salary any more has a lot to do with the way we expect to live more than it does on what is possible.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
Quote:
Quote:
they taxed the rich 85-90% in 1956?
No, they did not. This is an often-cited by those politicians looking to raise taxes on the rich, but has been shown incorrect.
here's one article: http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ib_19.htm#.U06GvlVdUrc
And, this is the stuff that drives me batty on figuring out macroeconomics is that it is next to impossible to trust the source on most information.
Argh that is annoying. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093
Dawg Talker
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,093 |
Thanks. I came across it the other day and found it interesting. I'm ordered Piketty's book and plan to read it this summer. I'm not going to engage with political discussions of this information. Despite Kingcob's ad hominem attack on the nationality of the author, the fact is this book is a milestone for this topic. It is already 700 pages long, and they had to create a website to hold all of the information in the technical appendices. Thankfully, the book is written to be understood by the non-economist, but it is a serious academic work. I don't know if there are policy discussions in the book. I hope not because I'm not interested in such things. The only thing I dislike about this review article is that it's written by Paul Krugman, and I know he certainly has policy ideas. I wonder how much of his interpretation is coloring this book review. I'll find out this summer when I actually read it. To be honest, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Krugman as the author yet. But then, some of the usual suspects haven't shown up on this thread yet. 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259 |
Quote:
I'm a little confused by your last sentence but I remember a time when a lot of families only had 1 car and they kept it for 12-15 years and they worked on it themselves, they had a relatively small house they lived in for 30 years, a week at the lake or down to the local beach was a vacation, they had 1 television, no cell phones, and going out to dinner was kind of a big deal... That same family today has 2 or 3 cars and they buy a new one every 3 or 4 years, a much larger house, they go to the bahamas and they go to Vegas just for the weekend, they have a $150/month cell phone bill and they eat out twice a week.
A big part of the reason why middle class folks can't live on one salary is because they haven't set up their lifestyle to do it. A couple meets, both have a job, they are enjoying the good life, they have a lot of money for a young couple because of the dual incomes so they set up their lifestyle based on those 2 incomes. Then children come, the mortgage payment is set, the expectations are that they can live a certain way so that second income is required, not just to live but to live the way they want to live.
I'm not blaming anybody that this notion that you can't get by on one decent salary any more has a lot to do with the way we expect to live more than it does on what is possible.
I have to call BS on lots of families owning the same car for 15 years if only because cars of that era were notoriously unreliable and built using wildly variant tolerance processes. That isn't to say that "everything" is made better today though. Houses I think are made far more disposable now than they were 50+ years ago. Press board ikea grade wood finishing and thin stick structure support, all yours for $400,000!
To get back on cars and price a bit, cars were much cheaper to own back in the 60s than today. A loaded '69 Charger Hemi in 2014 dollars would be something like $26,000 , which to me is a very reasonable new car price for a high end model. But the 2014 Charger SRT-8 starts at $44,000, not fully loaded.
I do agree with you that people live much closer to the edge financially than before. I don't know if it's because pensions are a thing of the past and people aren't doing a good job of planning ahead. I don't know if it's this assumption they will be taken care of by family or government when they get older. Shoot, it could be simple ostriching and thinking they'll worry about later. But you can't say living a simpler life wishes away things like asset inflation growth...
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 742
All Pro
|
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 742 |
Quote:
I'm a little confused by your last sentence but I remember a time when a lot of families only had 1 car and they kept it for 12-15 years and they worked on it themselves, they had a relatively small house they lived in for 30 years, a week at the lake or down to the local beach was a vacation, they had 1 television, no cell phones, and going out to dinner was kind of a big deal... That same family today has 2 or 3 cars and they buy a new one every 3 or 4 years, a much larger house, they go to the bahamas and they go to Vegas just for the weekend, they have a $150/month cell phone bill and they eat out twice a week.
A big part of the reason why middle class folks can't live on one salary is because they haven't set up their lifestyle to do it. A couple meets, both have a job, they are enjoying the good life, they have a lot of money for a young couple because of the dual incomes so they set up their lifestyle based on those 2 incomes. Then children come, the mortgage payment is set, the expectations are that they can live a certain way so that second income is required, not just to live but to live the way they want to live.
I'm not blaming anybody that this notion that you can't get by on one decent salary any more has a lot to do with the way we expect to live more than it does on what is possible.
Americans used to be thrifty. When they bought something they saved for it, valued it and kept it as long as they could. I see a few hints of this mentality coming back compared to the 2000's, but its few and far between.
Our nation's economic model is now centered around this Super Consumption and Waste. GDP and growth are more important than efficiency. We are urged to "Spend, Spend, Spend, Lend, Lend, Lend"
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,285 Likes: 633
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,285 Likes: 633 |
Quote:
I'm a little confused by your last sentence but I remember a time when a lot of families only had 1 car and they kept it for 12-15 years and they worked on it themselves, they had a relatively small house they lived in for 30 years, a week at the lake or down to the local beach was a vacation, they had 1 television, no cell phones, and going out to dinner was kind of a big deal...
i remember that very well. However things have really changed. I make above average money, very good money in fact for this area of the country. We have ONE car, My car that I drive is a demo and I only have to pay taxes on it (about 1,000 per year) I am guilty of the much larger house about 4300 square feet) I have not gone on a real vacation in 33 years. I have a 180 a month cell phone bill, and we go out for diner about twice a month. We are guilty of spending to much on our house, but we watch our money other than that yet my savings is still meager ( OK it wasnt bad but after shelling out 23,000 for weddings over the last 18 months it's just about gone lol) I agree we all spend to much these days on what we call needs, when they are really wants, but times have changed over the last 50 years and I don't think anybody can deny that.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259 |
No vacation in 33 years? That's rough.
You mention what you spend on bills/mortgage but I gather that you carefully watch your misc spending. Things like going out to eat, frivolous purchases, stuff of that nature. And I think that's very important, even more than your mortgage or car payment, because those are easy to measure. But not being able to control impulse purchases can be more damaging.
Do you have a pension through your employer?
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259 |
Thoughts? http://www.policymic.com/articles/87719/...campaign=socialQuote:
Princeton Concludes What Kind of Government America Really Has, and It's Not a Democracy Tom McKay's avatar image By Tom McKay 14 hours ago 174 COMMENTS | 40217 SHARES 25 princeton, concludes, what, kind, of, government, america, really, has,, and, it's, not, a, democracy, Princeton Concludes What Kind of Government America Really Has, and It's Not a Democracy The news: A new scientific study from Princeton researchers Martin Gilens and Benjamin I. Page has finally put some science behind the recently popular argument that the United States isn't a democracy any more. And they've found that in fact, America is basically an oligarchy.
An oligarchy is a system where power is effectively wielded by a small number of individuals defined by their status called oligarchs. Members of the oligarchy are the rich, the well connected and the politically powerful, as well as particularly well placed individuals in institutions like banking and finance or the military.
For their study, Gilens and Page compiled data from roughly 1,800 different policy initiatives in the years between 1981 and 2002. They then compared those policy changes with the expressed opinion of the United State public. Comparing the preferences of the average American at the 50th percentile of income to what those Americans at the 90th percentile preferred, as well as the opinions of major lobbying or business groups, the researchers found out that the government followed the directives set forth by the latter two much more often.
It's beyond alarming. As Gilens and Page write, "the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy." In other words, their statistics say your opinion literally does not matter.
That might explain why mandatory background checks on gun sales supported by 83% to 91% of Americans aren't in place, or why Congress has taken no action on greenhouse gas emissions even when such legislation is supported by the vast majority of citizens.
This problem has been steadily escalating for four decades. While there are some limitations to their data set, economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez constructed income statistics based on IRS data that go back to 1913. They found that the gap between the ultra-wealthy and the rest of us is much bigger than you would think, as mapped by these graphs from the Center On Budget and Policy Priorities:


Piketty and Saez also calculated that as of September 2013 the top 1% of earners had captured 95% of all income gains since the Great Recession ended. The other 99% saw a net 12% drop to their income. So not only is oligarchy making the rich richer, it's driving policy that's made everyone else poorer.
What kind of oligarchy? As Gawker's Hamilton Nolan explains, Gilens and Page's findings provide support for two theories of governance: economic elite domination and biased pluralism. The first is pretty straightforward and states that the ultra-wealthy wield all the power in a given system, though some argue that this system still allows elites in corporations and the government to become powerful as well. Here, power does not necessarily derive from wealth, but those in power almost invariably come from the upper class. Biased pluralism on the other hand argues that the entire system is a mess and interest groups ruled by elites are fighting for dominance of the political process. Also, because of their vast wealth of resources, interest groups of large business tend to dominate a lot of the discourse. America, the findings indicate, tends towards either of these much more than anything close to what we call "democracy."
In either case, the result is the same: Big corporations, the ultra-wealthy and special interests with a lot of money and power essentially make all of the decisions. Citizens wield little to no political power. America, the findings indicate, tends towards either of these much more than anything close to what we call "democracy" — systems such as majoritarian electoral democracy or majoritarian pluralism, under which the policy choices pursued by the government would reflect the opinions of the governed.
Nothing new: And no, this isn't a problem that's the result of any recent Supreme Court cases — at least certainly not the likes FEC v. Citizens United or FEC v. McCutcheon. The data is pretty clear that America has been sliding steadily into oligarchy for decades, mirrored in both the substantive effect on policy and in the distribution of wealth throughout the U.S. But cases like those might indicate the process is accelerating.
"Perhaps economic elites and interest group leaders enjoy greater policy expertise than the average citizen does," Gilens and Page write. "Perhaps they know better which policies will benefit everyone, and perhaps they seek the common good, rather than selfish ends, when deciding which policies to support.
"But we tend to doubt it."
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,371 Likes: 456
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,371 Likes: 456 |
The reason why threr is a growing income gap is because the rich have more money to risk during down economic times, and they do so. When the stock market dumped pack in 2007-2008, there was a massive sell off by ordinary people. People with money waited till the maarket was near the bottom, and bought like crazy. The government was desperate to bring the market back, and dumped tons of money into it, which brought us to record heights.
Those who can afford to take financial risks always win, whether the market is trending up, or down. The simple fact of having more money to risk is the key. It has continued the expansion of the wealth divide. When we add in that many people lost their jobs, or had to make concessions financially, and it hurts the middle class even more. Then add in inflation from pressure upward with minimum wage raises, and the middle class is squeezed even more. Inflationary forces force stagnant, or even lowered wages to go even further. We are becoming more of a 2 class society, and this is accelerating because of these factors.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,486 Likes: 743
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,486 Likes: 743 |
Quote:
dumped tons of money into it,
^This 85 Billion a month the FED is creating out of thin air and dumping into the stock markets is nothing more than a bail out of the 1%! I don't understand why anyone (not wealthy) would support this!
Do you have any idea what $85 Billion a month dumped into education, infrastructure, programs to support small business and assistance the poor would do in this country!
But the way they are doing it, it only helps the stock market, banks and the wealthy elite while devaluing the dollars the rest of us work hard to earn! These CROOKS are the reason we are in this mess and they are the ones the FED is bailing out! NUTS.
I served in the Military and would still lay down my life to defend my county home and family. However I do not recognize this country any more... It is not the country I loved as a kid, or believed in as a young man... It is rotten at the core and I am at a loss for what any average person could do to affect change. I would never fight for this government and feel completely disenfranchised by it.
Would I support a revolution? I don't think I would be against it. I do know that I don't think this government can be fixed. There are too many variables, bad policies and players at the table to turn it around effectively. I think only a return to government issued money (ie: colonial currency pre-FED), removal of the international banks and fractional banking system, a complete redistribution of wealth and installation of a true democratic government "Of the People for the People" will fix things. But that will never happen in our life times. /end rant
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,285 Likes: 633
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,285 Likes: 633 |
Impulse purchases are under control as well my wife and I keep the same amount of CASH out of each paycheck to live on for two weeks,
and nope no pension, they don't even offer a 401K
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280 |
Good find gage.. it's really hard to argue with anything that article says...
I refer you to my post in the political ads thread stating that I'm finding it harder and harder to care who I vote for because it just doesn't matter.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 742
All Pro
|
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 742 |
I don't think the FED has nearly that much to do with it. I'm surprised we don't hear Cantor and Boehner praising the Fed for enabling our Almighty (job) Creators to prosper. Remember, when the Almighty Creators do well, America does well. They are thriving, so we just need to wait for their abundant mercy to trickle down.
Corporate profits are at an all-time high, same with revenues and GDP. These corporations are sitting on over $2 Trillion. They are getting more productivity out of workers. I believe these fundamentals are more of a reason why people are investing in American Corporations.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Why We're in a New Gilded Age
|
|