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Legend
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Just clicking....
Are we seriously arguing over the Browns KEEPING talent for once? The fact is we managed to keep one of the game's best centres for the next two years. We had loads of cap room and we used some of it. And, for that matter, still HAVE loads of cap room.
He's a probowler....he's worth it. Glad we finally made a commitment to KEEP talent for once rather than go for cheap, 2nd grade replacements.
Like-minded, I am.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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All Pro
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We need 1 more stud on the OL and we are set..
GO BROWNS!
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NRTU
One thing many people are not realizing is we are just starting the mandatory spending of Cap $$ and factoring in that the Rookies under the new CBA are not getting 60 million dollar contracts ala Jamarcus Russel.
So we are just starting to hit the period where the proven vets, especially probowlers, are going to see the average contracts for the position to rise.
Mack's agent with Jacksonville did a good job to achieve the increased salary and tried to price it to where possibly the Browns wouldn't match. They knew it was a slim chance but they had nothing to lose.
In a few years with the increase in Cap every year and with the mandatory spending of cap dollars Mack's contract is going to be in line. All of the other top paid centers were signed a few years ago. The next good center (Pouncey??) hitting Free Agency will be using Macks contract as a starting spot in his negotiations.
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Legend
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Some people simply don't get it as of yet. Four years ago people were complaining about signing rookies to huge contracts and wanted to see proven players make the money. Now we are at the point that proven players are starting to cash in on the big money and people still complain.
There is a salary cap and teams have to on average spend 89% of that allotment. The rookies aren't getting the money anymore, so it has to be spent somewhere.
That's a very simple and accurate way to describe it. Rookie contracts went down and veteran contracts, especially those in their prime will go up. It's not rocket science but some people simply haven't wrapped their minds around the concept yet.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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I was mocking Anarchy for saying that, you misinterpreted the context of what I wrote. To be fair it wasn't very clear, but it sounded good in my head. 
What it should have said was "But Anarchy saying that his deal is 40% more than any other center?"  "
Mock me any way you want, but anyone that thinks this was really a good deal for the Browns are fooling themselves.
http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/center/limit-25/
Mack's deal just blew them out of the water.
I am not mocking you. I just think you don't understand the new pay structure. You, or to be exact, the article is comparing dollars, but Mack might be the first center to cash in off a rookie contract at the position under the new rules..
Give it a few years and he will be right in line with all the top centers with veteran experience.
I suppose a team could just decide they are going with a center on a rookie contract and let him loose after 3-4 years.....and it could come to that. These are uncharted waters, but as of today or the next year, I don't see any real problem. We have a solid center who can help us win games.
Do you want to win more games or do you want to count other peoples beans?
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I find it amusing that so many on here are not liking how this played out, whereas listening to multiple shows on nfl radio the talking heads say we are the blueprint on how to use the transition tag and how more teams will be doing this in the future.
I like the deal and am happy to keep Alex.
#gmstrong
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~ Legend
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tbh this contract will probably cost the Steeler's Pouncey after next year. So not only do we get an all-pro center, we'll make the Steelers lose theirs or make an even bigger pay day for theirs.
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j/c:
I like the deal. Contracts go up. That is a fact. Comparing his to others is short-sighted.
I say keep the good players and let others walk.
I am very happy that we decided to keep Mack and let Ward walk. The new FO just gained more trust from me.
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Legend
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j/c
The nfl is probably headed towards what nascar is now dealing with: too expensive.
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I was mocking Anarchy for saying that, you misinterpreted the context of what I wrote. To be fair it wasn't very clear, but it sounded good in my head.
What it should have said was "But Anarchy saying that his deal is 40% more than any other center?" "
Mock me any way you want, but anyone that thinks this was really a good deal for the Browns are fooling themselves.
http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/center/limit-25/
Mack's deal just blew them out of the water.
Why are you only looking at base salary? That site has many options but you chose to limit it to just a base salary comparison? Why and how is that meaningful in anyway? Not mocking... seriously don't understand what you are doing..
Use whatever metric you want. I just listed salaries by position (in this instance, center).
But, let's say that you take the total numbers of the contracts, he still is higher than them all this year. Is he worth it?
Look at the cap hit metric then.
Maybe you want to look at the guaranteed money owed.
Want to look at the average salary metric? He still comes out on top.
He doesn't come out on top with the length of the contract (which we all know won't be the full 5 years) because it's only guaranteed in the first 3 years (with his option to void at any point after the 2015 season). No trade and no tag clauses. So, the team is on the hook for $18 million for two seasons, minimum and possibly on the hook for the full amount whether his level of play trails off or not. The team cannot void the contract at all and he can void it anytime after year 2.
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By no means do I consider myself a cap or contract guru. So, I'm asking... when you say the team can't void the contract you are not saying that he can't be released, are you? Also, if he were to opt-in and play here in year 3 of the contract after that season isn't the cost on our cap negligible?
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Legend
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j/c
The nfl is probably headed towards what nascar is now dealing with: too expensive.
I don't think so Arch.
The NFL will reach it's point, but it's price elasticity is far greater than NASCAR.
NASCAR is nearing or at the point of diminished returns.
A big part is you only have 1-2 races a year at a track. You don't get the true diehards buying season tickets and club seats.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I think that he can only void the contract after 2 years. If he doesn't then the rest of the contract is enforced (from what I understand, not having actually seen the contract).
Then if he doesn't void the contract, he is guaranteed $8 million in year 3 but no guarantee in year 4 or 5. Again from what I have read, not seeing the actual contract.
So I do not believe as you said that he can void the contract any time after year 3. And I do believe that the team can cut him and void the contract without paying him a dime after year 3 should his level of play trail off.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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So, the team is on the hook for $18 million for two seasons, minimum and possibly on the hook for the full amount whether his level of play trails off or not. The team cannot void the contract at all and he can void it anytime after year 2.
Again, no idea where you get your information.
link 1 link 2
Mack has a player option for 2016, which he has to decide before April 5, 2016 when the $8 mil becomes guaranteed. This is the only time Mack can "void" the contract.
On the Browns side, Mack's contract is guaranteed in 2016 for injury only. So if Macks play drops off he can be cut and won't have anything coming to him. He could also be cut before 2017 or 2018 with no dead money.
LIbertatem Defendimus!!
2010 Dawgtalkers NCAA Bracket Challenge Champ!!
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Legend
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j/c
The nfl is probably headed towards what nascar is now dealing with: too expensive.
I don't think so Arch.
The NFL will reach it's point, but it's price elasticity is far greater than NASCAR.
NASCAR is nearing or at the point of diminished returns.
A big part is you only have 1-2 races a year at a track. You don't get the true diehards buying season tickets and club seats.
Nascar has reached the point of diminishing returns. MIS has torn down grandstands, Bristol used to be the hardest ticket in motorsports - now, walk up on race day - buy a ticket, or 20.
I will give you that "die hards" in nascar can still only reasonably attend a few tracks per year.
But, I am seeing empty seats at all nascar tracks..........and I'm seeing empty seats at most nfl stadiums. I do think the nfl is pricing itself out of attendance. Attendance. At this point - let's talk cleveland - tickets still get sold - but people don't show up. That's probably true for each nfl team.
Players salaries are skyrocketing, concessions increase constantly, .......and many people are saying "hell, I can watch the game at home, not drive 50 miles, or 500 miles, not pay for parking, I can get a 12 pack for what a single beer costs at the stadium, I don't have to deal with traffic, or drunken fans, my bathroom is open and available and within 15 feet of me......" etc etc.
I love going to games, just as I loved going to races - but it's not about me - it's about the cost value. Nascar lost it - and I think the nfl is headed that way, soon. In their pursuit of getting bigger and bigger - they forgot what got them to this point - the paying fan.
Maybe they can make it all up in t.v. revenue, I don't know - but stadiums are getting emptier and emptier - teams are hitting cities for more money for new stadiiums - etc.
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Most of the NFL's revenue is via TV/Radio so them not having fans in attendance won't really hurt them that badly or as drastically as NASCAR. You also have to look at demographics. Nascar is performing badly because it's not breaking down into any new markets, while the NFL is trying to explore a lot of them.
Last edited by CHSDawg; 04/14/14 10:22 PM.
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Legend
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Most of the NFL's revenue is via TV/Radio so them not having fans in attendance won't really hurt them that badly or as drastically as NASCAR. You also have to look at demographics. Nascar is performing badly because it's not breaking down into any new markets, while the NFL is trying to explore a lot of them.
Most of nascars money comes from media, and sponsors. The butts in the seat really only helped the track owner.
Do you remember CART?
Do you remember IRL?
CART is gone - no one showed up to watch the races. Sponsorship money disappeared, and so did the media money. IRL thought they won, and they decided to bring in the CART fans by having more road races/street races. Have races in Japan, Mexiceo, Grow the brand, right?
IRL is in dire straights now as well. Nascar is headed down the same path.
Money. Too much for not enough. I see the nfl headed down the same path - pricing themselves out of existence. Might take 10 years, but it will probably happen. They do have a plus in that there are only 32 teams - 16 games a year. But, we hear talk about bad teams, and even some established teams, threatening to move if they don't get this, or that, etc.
Problem is, where do they move to? Everyone says "L.A." Huge market.
Huge market that doesn't care anymore than Jacksonville.
Ah, I hope I'm wrong. I love the Browns. But I just can't afford to go to 3 games a year anymore. I'll catch them on t.v. - until it becomes a pay per view thing (and it will, IMO)
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Legend
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Thought this would go here ...... Browns' moves -- hiring Farmer, handling Mack -- good for change - CBSSports.com http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/pat-...good-for-changeThe Browns have taken their fair share of criticism, but 2014 has been very positive, and three factors have played a major role in the uptick. 1. Hiring Ray Farmer: Installing Farmer as GM and vice president of player personnel puts a solid football man at the top, and his actions speak volumes about the direction of this team. Farmer has put good football people like Bill Kuharich around him and decisions this offseason will translate to better results in the fall. 2. Using the transition tag on Alex Mack: The decision to use a transition tag instead of a franchise tag was a very good move. The transition tag is seldom used, though more teams should consider it for the reasons Farmer used it. The Browns let the market set Mack's value and let another club negotiate for them. When the NFL eliminated "poison pills" from transition tags it made it much tougher for agents and competing clubs to write a contract the home team couldn't match. For the Browns, Mack was not signable to a long-term deal and while the franchise tag would have prevented him from leaving Cleveland for this season, using that tag for a second year wasn't realistic. It would have cost the Browns more than $12 million to franchise tag him in 2015, or $4 million more than the contract they now have in place for Mack, thanks to the Jacksonville Jaguars. The Browns likely will need the franchise or transition tag next year on cornerback Joe Haden or even nose tackle Phil Taylor (if Haden's deal is done in time). Also, if the Browns were repeatedly tagging Mack they would be stuck when emerging star WR Josh Gordon needs a new deal before his rookie deal expires after 2015. They most certainly will want a tag available for him. Farmer looked at top players coming up for extensions and knew getting Mack signed was critical, so he used the Jaguars to get it done. When teams like the Raiders let quality young players go in free agency we heard the player "doesn't want to be here." The Browns heard the same about Mack but employed the transition tag instead letting him go. Now they have Mack, who turns 29 in November, under contract for two seasons. And I believe Mack will think long and hard about voiding his contract heading into the 2016 season as a 31-year-old center with $8 million guaranteed on the table. 3. Not engaging in QB pro day chase: The Browns need a quarterback, but their predraft process is not driven by chasing young candidates around at their pro day workouts. The Browns aren't buying the dog-and-pony shows run by agents and QB gurus. Farmer and his evaluators are working out candidates on their own terms, giving them a better where to take the guy they want with two first-round picks and the ability to wait until a later round on a QB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Let me just say I am just as high on the Farmer promotion as I was BEFORE they did it, and once they announced it, BUT he still has a long way to go to prove himself.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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By no means do I consider myself a cap or contract guru. So, I'm asking... when you say the team can't void the contract you are not saying that he can't be released, are you? Also, if he were to opt-in and play here in year 3 of the contract after that season isn't the cost on our cap negligible?
Yes, only Mack can void the contract after year 2. He has that option, the team doesn't.
As I understand it, the contract is fully guaranteed for the first three years. That is, if he opts to stay. The thing about that third year is that he has to has to execute the option by April 5th, 2016. I'm not clear if that's when free agency starts in 2016 or not but it would seem that it is well into free agency which started March 11 this year. If he doesn't execute the option, he will automatically stay with the Browns. He maintains the option to void the remaining contract years in the final two years of the contract as well.
So, he will get to decide (not the team) whether he stays here 2 years or up to 5 years. The Browns are only assured that he is here for two - and they pay him very well to do it.
The final years, he will have salaries of $8 million each season. Hardly negligible because he is the one with the option, not the team. I don't think that the dates for the league year have been set for 2017 or 2018 yet so they don't know yet the dates by which he must execute the options.
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I think that he can only void the contract after 2 years. If he doesn't then the rest of the contract is enforced (from what I understand, not having actually seen the contract).
Not having seen the contract either, but from the information gleaned, he has the option from the year 2016 through 2018. If he executes it in 2016, then 2017 and 2018 don't matter. If he doesn't and then plays for the Browns in year 3, he can then execute the option in year 4 (in 2017) and void the final two years. He can do so in 2018 if he hasn't done so in 2016 or 2017 and void the final year. If he executes the option in any of the years 2016 through 2018, he becomes a free agent when the free agency period starts or whenever he executes the option (up to April 5 in 2016 - which would seem to be well into free agency).
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Then if he doesn't void the contract, he is guaranteed $8 million in year 3 but no guarantee in year 4 or 5. Again from what I have read, not seeing the actual contract.
He's not guaranteed anything in year's 4 and 5 because he may execute the option in year 3. If he doesn't execute the option and plays for the Browns, he will get paid $42 million by the club over that 5 year span (averaging $8.4 million over that span) if he doesn't execute the option.
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So I do not believe as you said that he can void the contract any time after year 3. And I do believe that the team can cut him and void the contract without paying him a dime after year 3 should his level of play trail off.
Okay, well, I hope your right. I don't think that you are but that's not how I understand the contract to be structured.
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So, the team is on the hook for $18 million for two seasons, minimum and possibly on the hook for the full amount whether his level of play trails off or not. The team cannot void the contract at all and he can void it anytime after year 2.
Again, no idea where you get your information.
link 1 link 2
Mack has a player option for 2016, which he has to decide before April 5, 2016 when the $8 mil becomes guaranteed. This is the only time Mack can "void" the contract.
On the Browns side, Mack's contract is guaranteed in 2016 for injury only. So if Macks play drops off he can be cut and won't have anything coming to him. He could also be cut before 2017 or 2018 with no dead money.
Okay. I must have misunderstood the contract details. (I'm not good at them.  ) So, he decides to execute the option in 2016, then he earns $8 million. He gets paid for that 2016 season only if he plays or if he gets injured (presumably only if it's an NFL injury suffered on the field). If his play falls off and the team cuts him after 2016, he gets nothing more.
So then, he gets $18 million fully guaranteed and $8 million more guaranteed for 2016 if he plays or gets hurt playing (or otherwise in conjunction with team-related activities). In 2017, the team can cut him without paying him anything more?
Okay, that's better, but still a bad deal.
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Legend
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I was mocking Anarchy for saying that, you misinterpreted the context of what I wrote. To be fair it wasn't very clear, but it sounded good in my head.
What it should have said was "But Anarchy saying that his deal is 40% more than any other center?" "
Mock me any way you want, but anyone that thinks this was really a good deal for the Browns are fooling themselves.
http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/center/limit-25/
Mack's deal just blew them out of the water.
Why are you only looking at base salary? That site has many options but you chose to limit it to just a base salary comparison? Why and how is that meaningful in anyway? Not mocking... seriously don't understand what you are doing..
Use whatever metric you want. I just listed salaries by position (in this instance, center).
But, let's say that you take the total numbers of the contracts, he still is higher than them all this year. Is he worth it?
Look at the cap hit metric then.
Maybe you want to look at the guaranteed money owed.
Want to look at the average salary metric? He still comes out on top.
He doesn't come out on top with the length of the contract (which we all know won't be the full 5 years) because it's only guaranteed in the first 3 years (with his option to void at any point after the 2015 season). No trade and no tag clauses. So, the team is on the hook for $18 million for two seasons, minimum and possibly on the hook for the full amount whether his level of play trails off or not. The team cannot void the contract at all and he can void it anytime after year 2.
All I'll say is that you are trying way too hard at not liking this deal.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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All I'll say is that you are trying way too hard at not liking this deal.
It appears that I'm wrong about some of the terms of the deal, but I still think that the deal is a bad one.
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I was mocking Anarchy for saying that, you misinterpreted the context of what I wrote. To be fair it wasn't very clear, but it sounded good in my head.
What it should have said was "But Anarchy saying that his deal is 40% more than any other center?" "
Mock me any way you want, but anyone that thinks this was really a good deal for the Browns are fooling themselves.
http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/center/limit-25/
Mack's deal just blew them out of the water.
Why are you only looking at base salary? That site has many options but you chose to limit it to just a base salary comparison? Why and how is that meaningful in anyway? Not mocking... seriously don't understand what you are doing..
Use whatever metric you want. I just listed salaries by position (in this instance, center).
But, let's say that you take the total numbers of the contracts, he still is higher than them all this year. Is he worth it?
Look at the cap hit metric then.
Maybe you want to look at the guaranteed money owed.
Want to look at the average salary metric? He still comes out on top.
He doesn't come out on top with the length of the contract (which we all know won't be the full 5 years) because it's only guaranteed in the first 3 years (with his option to void at any point after the 2015 season). No trade and no tag clauses. So, the team is on the hook for $18 million for two seasons, minimum and possibly on the hook for the full amount whether his level of play trails off or not. The team cannot void the contract at all and he can void it anytime after year 2.
All I'll say is that you are trying way too hard at not liking this deal.
no kidding... I wish all of our contracts looked like this with team options. Time to get the other players locked up.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Legend
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If a player signs a 5 year deal with a $10 million bonus, then $2 million ($10 million/5 years) will count against each year of the cap until it is all accounted for,
Correct me if I'm wrong - I thought the new CBA had the Cap Spread of the signing bonus cut down to 4 years not 5.
That is why in an article describing Klahil's contract the signing bonus was just shy of 16mil and they wrote that 3.86 (something like that) would be added to his salary to show the cap hit.
Use to be 5. Pretty sure on this but not 100% sure
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Let me just say I am just as high on the Farmer promotion as I was BEFORE they did it, and once they announced it, BUT he still has a long way to go to prove himself.
I like Farmer thus far. I think he has made some good moves. I liked that he replaced Ward w/Whitner. I think Dansby is a bit of an upgrade over DQ. I like that he really wanted Mack and wisely let Ward walk.
I am iffy about the Tate and Hawkins' moves.
I do like the Burleson signing.
Keeping Mack is huge.
I do not like that he didn't secure a guard or two in free agency. There were three decent guys available who would have been good in our zone blocking scheme.
I guess how he handles this upcoming draft, and especially the QB situation, will go a long way in telling us what we have in Farmer. Hopefully, this Farmer will have a bountiful harvest.
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I think he's done a good job of getting guys we know were upgrades.
I can't look at any of the guys he brought in and say they aren't upgrades over what we have??
- Hawkins - Bess
- Whitner - Ward (maybe a wash, maybe)
- Dansby - Jackson
- Tate - Baker??
- That Fullback - no one
- McQuinstan - Pinkston?
and some special teams guys.
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At the risk of sounding like Braylon Edwards (his 'they don't like me cuz I went to Michigan comment lol)...
The only reason Whitner is considered an upgrade over Ward by our fans is because he played at Ohio State.
Whitner is a downgrade. Not a HUGE downgrade, but a noticeable downgrade, IMO.
Other than that, I agree with your post.
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong - I thought the new CBA had the Cap Spread of the signing bonus cut down to 4 years not 5.
Still 5 years as far as I know.
Kalil restructured base salary into signing bonus so maybe that's what you're thinking of.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Hall of Famer
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Do not agree at all, but I think we've been down this road a few times. Wards coverage skills are below league average. Whitner is an upgrade, but we'll agree to disagree.
Not a huge upgrade but one none the less.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,796 Likes: 158 |
We'll have to talk about Whitner after we see him play a bit.. but at first glance, worst case, it's a wash. I don't see it as downgrading.. And I liked Ward and wanted us to keep him.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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Legend
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Pretty much every expert I've read about our offseason seems to agree, swapping Ward for Whitner improved us in the passing game but might have cost us a little in the run game...
yebat' Putin
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
Pretty much every expert I've read about our offseason seems to agree, swapping Ward for Whitner improved us in the passing game but might have cost us a little in the run game...
However the swap of Dansby for Jackson may have improved our run defense.
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Legend
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Legend
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With our beefy front seven, I'll take it... I'll sacrifice putting more pressure on the front seven to handle the run to help the backend be more stable against the pass. It's no secret, the pass game is what our defense allowed offenses to attack us with. Keep in mind, Dansby will help stuff the run game.
I liked TJ too, wish him all the best - but we're better off with Hitner. Still have an extremely physical safety and he'll be able to cover and help the cornerbacks and linebackers in coverage. Maybe with the coverage holding up in the backend - our front seven will be able to blitzkrieg QB's and we can have sick sack numbers...
jmo
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Legend
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I agree. Wish we could have put Dansby beside Jackson but alas, that was not financially viable.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
I agree. Wish we could have put Dansby beside Jackson but alas, that was not financially viable.
I wonder if they didn't try to do just that by reworking DQ's deal? Maybe that's why things went south so quickly.. Dunno
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Seems I recall that being the case, and the two sides couldn't agree on the adjustment.
Either way it doesn't matter.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
If a player signs a 5 year deal with a $10 million bonus, then $2 million ($10 million/5 years) will count against each year of the cap until it is all accounted for,
Correct me if I'm wrong - I thought the new CBA had the Cap Spread of the signing bonus cut down to 4 years not 5.
That is why in an article describing Klahil's contract the signing bonus was just shy of 16mil and they wrote that 3.86 (something like that) would be added to his salary to show the cap hit.
Use to be 5. Pretty sure on this but not 100% sure
I believe you are right.
It figures that I got hung up on the simplest detail. lol
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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So what was your wonderlic score 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Alex Mack continued.....again.
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