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Earlier this year, I was listening to the radio show (driven by Liberty Ford) and they were discussing Campbell and Hoyer, specifically the fan's attitude.
They pointed out that Campbell had outplayed Hoyer to that point, yet Hoyer seemed to be the clear favorite. They brought up one possible reason that never occurred to me.
They also discussed Hoyer's hometown boy story, and pretty much decided that was the reason.
My own theory is that Hoyer is more of a blank slate. Campbell has history, a track record of being fairly good though maybe a bit erratic. Not likely he could be the next great QB. Hoyer, as a complete unknown, has at least a chance of being the undiscovered diamond.
IMO, Campbell has matured, is the better QB, and good enough to go forward with. Hoyer looked good compared to Weedon, which is a bad yardstick. To me, this is the fans doing what my father used to call "Stumbling over a dollar to pick up a dime."
How these two guys are evaluated is HUGE going forward.
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Quote:
Earlier this year, I was listening to the radio show (driven by Liberty Ford) and they were discussing Campbell and Hoyer, specifically the fan's attitude.
They pointed out that Campbell had outplayed Hoyer to that point, yet Hoyer seemed to be the clear favorite. They brought up one possible reason that never occurred to me.
They also discussed Hoyer's hometown boy story, and pretty much decided that was the reason.
My own theory is that Hoyer is more of a blank slate. Campbell has history, a track record of being fairly good though maybe a bit erratic. Not likely he could be the next great QB. Hoyer, as a complete unknown, has at least a chance of being the undiscovered diamond.
IMO, Campbell has matured, is the better QB, and good enough to go forward with. Hoyer looked good compared to Weedon, which is a bad yardstick. To me, this is the fans doing what my father used to call "Stumbling over a dollar to pick up a dime."
How these two guys are evaluated is HUGE going forward.
remember as well, the time it took hoyer to release the ball was 2 secs faster than weeden, which in the NFL is straight up great. he doesn't have to be perfect, but getting the ball out quickly lets us know not only does he know the playbook, he can go through his reads fairly quick as well.
i think the only part of hoyers game that is questionable is his arm strenght. can he put zip on the ball 40-50 yards down the field.
and was that a plug for liberty ford? i don't like their damn trucks man. i'm a dodge kinda guy.
Last edited by Swish; 12/12/13 10:16 AM.
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lets us know not only does he know the playbook, he can go through his reads fairly quick as well.
+ 1 and a huge thing to add is his ability to make pre-snap reads on the defense and know before the snap, where he likely is going to throw the rock to.
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I think the biggest reasons that Hoyer was preferred are more simple than the hometown boy story:
(1) We were falling into another lost year and he briefly pulled us out from those thoughts with his play. It wasn't great, but it wasn't Weeden either.
(2) He is more of an unknown. We know what Campbell is and it is VERY unlikely he will be anything more. But, we don't know what Hoyer can be. That means he could end up being figured out and fall on his face, but it also means that he could end up being good. This unknown gets translated into hope pretty quickly when you are desperate.
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I don't think either is starter quality, so it doesn't matter that much to me which one eeks the other out by a hair.
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((2) He is more of an unknown. We know what Campbell is and it is VERY unlikely he will be anything more. But, we don't know what Hoyer can be. That means he could end up being figured out and fall on his face, but it also means that he could end up being good. This unknown gets translated into hope pretty quickly when you are desperate.
I totally agree with this.
Hoyer has had to wait for years, sitting behind Brady, and seeing how BB operates his team.
Campbell is what he is. The book is still out on Hoyer.
I think we were all blown away by his ability to come up with a GW drive late in a game, something we never see, and something Brandon Weeden has not done in 2 seasons despite having numerous opportunities.
He made a statement pretty early by doing that on the road. I know Minnesota is 3-9, but they really are a bit better than their record, and are always tough in the dome.
I don't care about the feel good story. He could be from the heart of Pittsburgh for all I care. Makes for good fluff articles the week after wins.
I was impressed with what little we saw, but that's also the problem. We didn't see enough of him. We didn't get to see the league adjust to him like they do every quarterback who gets a few starts under his belt.
I've said it many times, I'm fine with giving him the starting job in 2013, and having a rookie sit on the bench. Campbell can stay too. Why not if you're going to be that far under the cap? That's a great benefit to have 2 guys you can trust, and a third who you have enough faith in that you used up a high pick.
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I love the home town boy thing...I think their heart as a team leader has more to offer than a player brought in via FA on his 4th or 5th team??? I think 4th.
But that was not the reason.
As far as those expert analysis that claimed Campbell has out played Hoyer...its sort of refreshes myself why I call them BOZOS 
He didn't outplay Hoyer - he OUT STAT Hoyer...there is a big difference.
When Hoyer played there was a flow to the offense (OFFENSE NIRVANA IS TO GET THAT FLOW GOING) not seen before or since for that matter. Campbell would play NOT TO LOSE and guess what he has done nothing but lose well with the one exception.
While Hoyer might not have matched Campbell statistically he seemed to play to win - Without Fear.
Guess what win he did. 3-0 although Weeden actually came in relief and gets a lot of credit for that 3rd win.
Also all be it 2 games it was the fact the Viking game he got the win and it seemed a service able win. Then it was the next game against a divisional foe and the best team in our Division including the best Defense in our division...not counting us of course 
His game did not faulty but instead came more alive and he went from an OK nice job - Wow! This kid is something. I never got this impression from Campbell. I think he solidified the Back Up QB position but is way too scared and plays to NOT LOSE which 9 times out of 10 gets you a LOSS!
So basically it was from the BOZO'S - "We are so smart how come the fans disagree with us...aha it must be favoritism that he's a home town boy. So gosh know us BOZOS cannot be wrong about this one... 
JMHO
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I've said it many times, I'm fine with giving him the starting job in 2013, and having a rookie sit on the bench. Campbell can stay too. Why not if you're going to be that far under the cap? That's a great benefit to have 2 guys you can trust, and a third who you have enough faith in that you used up a high pick.
+1
I'm very good with this. Although, maybe there's a bit of a future problem with Hoyer knowing there's a fan-favorite first rounder on the bench. But whateva...I'm not ready to give up on Hoyer. Maybe he is the guy, maybe he's not. He earned the right to prove it next year (camp, preseason, regular season). And we still need to protect ourselves by drafting a QB high in case he isn't too.
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I do think Hoyer brought a "rah-rah" factor, but IMO much of that was just NOT being Weedon.
Interesting you say Weedon should get "much of" the credit for that third win. IIRC, Hoyer had done almost nothing in that game and I think our first first down of the game came on the scramble he was injured on. I'm not pimping Weedon, but I think only wishful thinking gives Hoyer any credit at all for that one.
Looking at Campbell fully healthy, IMO he has both out-stated And out-played Hoyer, so far. Campbell looks to be playing as a more mature version of what he was two or three years ago, surprise, surprise.
I think both can get the job done, I want to see Campbell the next three games, but right now if I had to pick just one for next year it would be him.
The show started me thinking about a bias without a basis, and am also curious if the other possible reason has occurred to anyone?
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All in all, Hoyer is still a very uncertain commodity. No one really knows what he will be, and become, if he becomes the starter. He is a risk, but he has shown some early ability. No one really know what we have with him. It would have been so much better if he would have been able to play the rest of the season, and culd have definitively answered the questions about him.
Campbell has had more exposure this season. He played through a difficult injury, and, when healthy, has been very impressive.
It will be an interesting, and difficult, decision facing the front office and coaches this off-season.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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The difference between them is that Campbell is a known quantity. Hoyer still carries Hope of being more, and nothing is more attractive to this fan base (or any?) than Hope.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Not sure if this will remain a thread considering there are other QB threads.
But my two cents:
Hoyer had a few major benefits. He directly followed Weeden whereas Campbell had to follow Hoyer's previous success. We won the games Hoyer played (an injured Bengal's secondary and Vikings defense). Hoyer had a quick release that was noticably faster than Weeden's. Hometown hero and Blank slate as previously mentioned. Race might be a factor for some. Hoyer targeted Cameron more than Campbell.
Campbell had to come in at the worst time against the Ravens. There was a report he was argumentative after that game. The team lost games where he played well. He had a spotty history on bad teams. He had a few stinker games with his ribs bruised. He was jumped by Hoyer on the depth chart.
Hoyer received a lot of hype because there isn't a lot of game tape on him. Everyone pretty much knows Campbell's abilities. Hoyer is getting the Matt Flynn love to some extent.
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The only downside to starting Hoyer and having a 1st round QB on the bench is that people will just be waiting for him to screw up so they can see whoever it is we draft.
That's obviously stuff that is outside the team's control, and I don't think the players will have that feeling, it's just something I personally don't want to see.
I'd rather have the approach the way Green Bay did having Favre and Rodgers at the same time (at least at the beginning of that whole thing). Obviously Hoyer isn't a hall of famer, but the point being that he's our guy, and the other quarterback will wait his turn. We're not going to go to the rookie when Hoyer throws a pick.
I don't think Chud would panic and switch QB's unless Hoyer morphs into Brandon Weeden, but again, he may have to if he feels his job is in question.
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tab I find your post amusing at best. Campbell HAS outplayed Hoyer. And another funny thing...... You insist on calling writers BOZOS. When in fact, it's often because they simply don't want to say what you want to hear. A lot of times the bozos are more accurate than the fan base is because we're more emotionally invested and we bring a lot of homerism into our thinking. But carry on......  Oh...... And Happy Birthday my friend! 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I didn't see enough of Hoyer to know if he's better or not. I do know that he's more fun to watch.
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Happy Birthday tab.  hope you have a great one. Man I wish that we could have seen even half a season of play from Hoyer. It would make decisions so much easier for the front office and coaches. However, I do think that Hoyer and Campbell have to give them confidence that they don't have to make any panic moves. Maybe if they cannot get the guy they like in this draft, they try to trade a 1st rounder for a future 1st and look at next year's draft instead, while rolling with what they have. Should be interesting.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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Interesting you say Weedon should get "much of" the credit for that third win. I'm confused Nelson that you were critical of that...was I incorrect in saying Weeden should get "MUCH OF"??? You mean I didn't word it like you would have???
The fact of the matter statistically Hoyer was the starting QB and we won...ergo his record was 3-0 I thought I was doing it justice by crediting Weeden with Much Of the win which would also mean MUCH NOT of the win for Hoyer???
Campbell to me is playing a SAFER game - as I stated before there was more FLOW with Hoyer in there. Who knows what would have happened with the Buffalo game...If Weeden whose play was not good-great or anything was able to bring us back maybe Hoyer would have too.
All I know is Campbell is 1-4??? And our defense for the most part has been playing their best. If you think those 4 yard pass plays on 3rd n 6 is what wins games???
The other thing I'd like to note...Campbell locks onto his WRs just as badly as Weeden does...I'm not that impressed and we will be losers if he starts next year. Hoyer we have a shot as being winners, whatever his stats were he was THE ONLY QB THAT PLAYED this year that made progressions....THE ONLY.
I don't think its even a debate and why I also got to laugh at the BOZOS for saying they are right so it must be the HOME TOWN KID THING 
JMHO
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j/c:
I think both guys have played well. I'm not sure why we have to take sides in this thing? Why not just play the guy who has the better camp?
I would draft a qb and let him sit behind Hoyer and Campbell. I would allow a fair competition between the latter two and roll w/that guy. I think backing one guy now over the other is premature and silly.
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I hate QB competitions. I can't remember the last time one turned out well.
It sucks that Cleveland is always in a position to have one.
What will it be like when we finally have 'The Guy'?
I don't think people will know what to do with themselves. LOL.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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My point there was that Hoyer did almost nothing at all, in very limited time, in that game. As I said, IIRC he got just one first down on the scramble he was hurt on, that may have been his only positive play of the game.
IMO he should get no credit at all for that one. Yet he does. Why?
Whether or not Campbell has outplayed Hoyer, it is very, very close. Yet the fan support does not reflect that. Hoyer gets much love, Campbell almost none.
I like them both, and want to keep both. I prefer Campbell, but want to see the next few games. Wish I could've seen a few more from Hoyer.
The possible reason mentioned on the radio show has been brought up here, but only once. Does anyone think race might be a factor?
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My point there was that Hoyer did almost nothing at all, in very limited time, in that game. As I said, IIRC he got just one first down on the scramble he was hurt on, that may have been his only positive play of the game.
IMO he should get no credit at all for that one. Yet he does. Why?
Whether or not Campbell has outplayed Hoyer, it is very, very close. Yet the fan support does not reflect that. Hoyer gets much love, Campbell almost none.
I like them both, and want to keep both. I prefer Campbell, but want to see the next few games. Wish I could've seen a few more from Hoyer.
The possible reason mentioned on the radio show has been brought up here, but only once. Does anyone think race might be a factor?
i wouldn't say campbell is better than hoyer and vise versa, but you could just FEEL the energy he brought to the team, and you could just FEEL the energy leave the stadium when he got hurt, and especially when the team and the fans realized that Weeden would be starting again.
stat for stat, he might not be any better than campbell, but the team just seemed to respond and play better when hoyer was starting. and, imo, that is just as important as anything else a QB should bring to the team.
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The possible reason mentioned on the radio show has been brought up here, but only once. Does anyone think race might be a factor?
Seriously?
It's a well known fact that Lombardi liked Hoyer all along. We needed a solid back up as everyone knew because I don't believe anyone was sold on Weeden. Hope from some? To some extent yes, but nothing more.
Hoyer was still on New England's roster when we signed Campbell. As soon as Hoyer became available, the FO signed him. It was also pretty commonly accepted that this was an evaluation year. To see what they had in Hoyer, they had to see him play.
Trying to bring race into this is a very silly thing. But I believe that in society today, any time anyone feels they can bring it up, they do. Even in situations that it's beyond ridiculous. Like this one...
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j/c
I havent weighed in on it all but have some thoughts...
When it comes to the QB position, they gotta do a few things well. They gotta be able to make presnap adjustments (either to the play, players, or in their own head at least adjust to what they see), have to make good decisions, and have to put the ball where the pass catcher can catch, run, and be the only player to catch it, as well as not get killed...
Hoyer did all of those things...Now he made mistakes, but you could tell on the INTs that he threw, that he'd made a decision, and just misread the defense. It wasnt a bad throw, it was a bad read, or a defender that wasnt seen or made a good play.
When he threw incompletions, they often were of the variety that no one had a chance except our guy to get it.
His best feature was his ball placement. It was fantastic. He put the ball on the guys hands every time he made a good play. Even his bad plays were decent decisions just a little iffy on the throw. But again it was a place where the D wasnt gonna get it, only our guy had a chance. Thats huge for a QB.
Our offense played with confidence, our QB played with confidence and energy...We looked like a real football team.
Get Hoyer a couple more consistent targets (draft Watkins and Marqise Lee in the first please) and a little better blocking (take Cyril Richardson in the 2nd please) and we're good as a franchise.
Campbell is a perfect Josh McCown backup. He'll go in and execute successfully when you need him to, and if he has more time in the system, he may even prove to be a capable starter. The guy had 3 offensive systems in Auburn, 4 in 5 years in Washington, 2 in 2 years in Oakland, and 1 in Chicago, and now ANOTHER one in Cleveland. If he can stay in one system for any amount of time, he will be successful in it.
He has the tools, has the smarts, and has the effort...let him be a part of the roster and insurance for Hoyer since he had limited exposure.
Then...go grab a late round QB with all of the measurables or intangibles that you want. Look for a guy that YOU like FO...and get him late in the game, and let him just be on the roster and not playing until his rookie contract runs up.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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The only downside to starting Hoyer and having a 1st round QB on the bench is that people will just be waiting for him to screw up so they can see whoever it is we draft.
Unless they draft one of the QBs who currently have injuries and will probably not be in a prime position to play much next year anyway, such as Murray or Mettenburger for example.
I actually think this becomes of a bit of an ideal situation. You have Hoyer to hold the reigns for the next 1-2 years and transfer his Brady/Belichick-grown knowledge to the young guy. Campbell remains the very serviceable backup. No pressure on the young QB to play yet.
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There are many reasons why Hoyer is thought more highly of than Campbell, and they are understandable, if flawed.
I put less stock in the "hometown boy" theory. Sure, fans want the local guy to succeed before someone else, but even for the dimmest of fans the bottom line is they want the best guy to help the team win games. That's a minimal factor.
There is a cause-and-effect factor here, where people were totally sick and tired of Weeden's poor play, demearnor, and mannerisms, both on the field and off of it. So he finally gets benched which resulted in an immediate "love at first sight" for whomever was coming in to play QB. That happened to be Hoyer. He comes in and does everything that Weeden doesn't...He gets the ball out quickly, he scrambles, and he gave the team a little energy boost.
The biggest two factors are more intertwined. He's a "younger" guy who is an unknown quantity who showed some positive traits in a very small sample size (which fans never react correctly to). So the holes in his game, such as not seeing defenders in his passing lanes, are overlooked. It's all about the positives, all about the upside. That's why Weeden got so much rope before he was sent up to hang...people loved his size, his arm, his guts, blah blah blah. All the problems he had in college were ignored because of the upside. Hoyer may have it in him to be great or it may have been a flash in the pan, but until the upside is proven to be a fairy tail, the upside will cause him to be beloved. It's human nature.
Then there's Campbell. A slow-developing, mild-mannered former 1st rounder who didn't live up to the promise. In spite of the fact that many QB's have developed later in their careers, Campbell is viewed as the opposite of Hoyer, where there's very little chance he can reach more upside. His resume doesn't scream "franchise QB" though neither does Hoyer, but because he's more known it removes the mental picture of "promise."
Hoyer was given the start over Campbell when Weeden was benched, so fans made all kinds of assumptions of why. From he's a bad teammate to a pouter to an inferior talent, people bought into all kinds of reasons. I believed it was painfully obvious that since Lombardi had been hot on Hoyer's heels for a while and really needed to see what the kid could do it was a slam-dunk that Hoyer HAD to be put into the game over Campbell since the season was essentially finished. It became an audition year for everyone so even I was for putting Hoyer in. That didn't mean Campbell wasn't the better QB. He is.
When it's all said and done, there are two primary reasons why people favor Hoyer which revolve around some success in a very small sample size, the other being he's imminently more likeable.
As for the question of race being a factor...sure, there are going to be some backwoods idiots who hate any idea of a black man playing QB for "their team" but in the big picture, no, race is not a factor.
I'm also going to throw out the garbage that says Hoyer won games while Campbell didn't. We held the Bengals to 6 points. Last week Campbell played far more than well enough to win, as it wasn't his fault the defense crumbled in the 4th quarter...again...and that the special teams couldn't recover an onsides kick, or that the guy on the other side of the field was HOF'er Tom Brady. That's just Homerism because I don't believe anyone buys into the failed idea that a guy "just wins games."
Bring both guys back next year. If there's a good bet QB sitting there when it's our turn to draft, go for it. If there's not, don't. We've reached on QB's several times since '99 and it's bitten us in the ass every, single, time. Buying into the theory that we absolutely MUST have a franchise QB and therefore we absolutely MUST come out with on in this draft is a recipe for failure. I wonder where this team might be today had we spent the picks on Weeden and Quinn and Frye and McCoy on other players. We didn't have to do it then and we don't have to do it now. Only if it's a smart bet.
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Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I actually think this becomes of a bit of an ideal situation. You have Hoyer to hold the reigns for the next 1-2 years and transfer his Brady/Belichick-grown knowledge to the young guy. Campbell remains the very serviceable backup. No pressure on the young QB to play yet.
+1
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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I would bring both back.
Even though it's unlikely, what if the Browns don't like any of these QB's? Myself, I think there is enough of a QB class that there has to be at least a few guys that they think could be really good in their offense.
Fans want someone put into this organization immediately. We all know we can't move forward with a playoff push until we get better, more consistent play. That also includes guys smart enough to avoid injuries by reading defenses better, and knowing when to get down. That all plays into it. Brandon Weeden gets hurt all the time because he doesn't know what he's doing. Jason Campbell got hurt because he couldn't pick up a guy that all of us saw on TV was coming in unblocked... Brian Hoyer got hurt because he didn't get down soon enough or even better, out of bounds, avoiding contact all together.
It just seems like good quarterbacks get hurt less often. I'm not saying they're immune, because we all know that isn't true. My opinion is that the odds go down when you have a guy who knows exactly what he's doing out there.
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Quote:
That also includes guys smart enough to avoid injuries by reading defenses better, and knowing when to get down. That all plays into it. Brandon Weeden gets hurt all the time because he doesn't know what he's doing. Jason Campbell got hurt because he couldn't pick up a guy that all of us saw on TV was coming in unblocked... Brian Hoyer got hurt because he didn't get down soon enough or even better, out of bounds, avoiding contact all together.
+1.
Really astute, great point.
It's funny when people are always lamenting to keep this guy and that guy because 'Cleveland QBs always get hurt' without thinking of the root cause of why that is.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Quote:
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That also includes guys smart enough to avoid injuries by reading defenses better, and knowing when to get down. That all plays into it. Brandon Weeden gets hurt all the time because he doesn't know what he's doing. Jason Campbell got hurt because he couldn't pick up a guy that all of us saw on TV was coming in unblocked... Brian Hoyer got hurt because he didn't get down soon enough or even better, out of bounds, avoiding contact all together.
+1.
Really astute, great point.
It's funny when people are always lamenting to keep this guy and that guy because 'Cleveland QBs always get hurt' without thinking of the root cause of why that is.
I've been a believer that it has nothing to do with curses or bad luck. QB is a really dangerous position. You've got 11 guys trying to kill you. At least with a running back, you're built usually with a low center of gravity and really you don't ever get blindsided. Quarterbacks get hung out to dry all the time.
That's what really amazes me about Russell Wilson. The way he carries himself on the field, his chances of getting hurt are less than most QB's. He knows where he's going, he knows what he can do and what he can't do. That's a smart guy.
Manning, Brady, Brees, etc... Those guys get rid of the ball so quick that it's really tough to knock them around. They all also get the most out of their OL.
Rodgers? I'm surprised he didn't get hurt sooner, because sometimes, he really asks for it...
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Pit, you may not have read my original post.
The possibility of race being an issue was not my original thought, it was brought up on Cleveland Browns Daily by Mr. Cherry, I don't know how to spell his first name.
SFAIK, he happens to be black, so does he get a pass?
He also has a Super Bowl ring.
He put this out there as a serious question, it was dismissed pretty quickly by the other two and Cherry did not press the point very much. He did insist that it Might be a factor.
Personally, I did not know or care that Campbell is black, although I do remember the first black QB who played for us and the fact that it was mentioned when he played. All I remember is that he was studying to be a dentist.
As for the Lombardi factor, SFAIK the decision on the 3rd string QB was the only one he is known to have made all by himself, I really don't think he has a whole lot of pull in the organization.
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Quote:
Pit, you may not have read my original post.
The possibility of race being an issue was not my original thought, it was brought up on Cleveland Browns Daily by Mr. Cherry, I don't know how to spell his first name.
SFAIK, he happens to be black, so does he get a pass?
He also has a Super Bowl ring.
He put this out there as a serious question, it was dismissed pretty quickly by the other two and Cherry did not press the point very much. He did insist that it Might be a factor.
Personally, I did not know or care that Campbell is black, although I do remember the first black QB who played for us and the fact that it was mentioned when he played. All I remember is that he was studying to be a dentist.
Oh I remember a time that having a black QB was big news. That was also a time that NFL salaries were smaller and thinking was different. What I think one needs to remember is Banner and McNabb in Philly. I have seen zero in the way of any tendencies from Banner regarding race ever being an issue with his players or coaching staff for that matter.
My explanation lines up with Toads. This is an evaluation year. This FO and coaching staff needed to know what they did and didn't have at the QB position going into the off season. As of now, they know that Campbell is competent and Hoyer has promise.
People wish to overvalue a small sample size. IMO when Hoyer was injured, they lost the ability to get a long enough of a look at him to reach any real conclusion except that he showed some promise.
While I don't see a home run in this draft, I would hope that the people in charge are better talent evaluators that we as fans are. I mean people seem desperate enough to promote a guy like Cutler who hasn't exactly set the world on fire. That's how desperate this fan base has become.
So no, I don't feel Lombardi so much had the option to decide to start Hoyer, as this entire organization needed to know what we did and did not have at the QB position.
The book was already pretty well written with Campbell, although I do believe he may be better than we saw before he came to Cleveland with some stability in a system. He's never really had that.
But Hoyer was an open book. The only way they had to see what was there was to play him.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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j/c:
A few points:
--I don't think race has anything to do w/it. I believe we are well past that era. Look at all the love guys like RGIII, Kapernick, Cam, and Wilson have received.
--I am hoping Hoyer wins the job because I just think he brings more fire to the team. Campbell is a little too laid back for my tastes, but that is personal opinion. I also kinda root for the underdogs and Hoyer has been an underdog for a long time.
--With that said, his playing sample size is too small. You absolutely can not hand him the starting job. Besides, Campbell has played very well. I think his injured ribs were more of a problem than any of us knew. YTown and myself have been saying that all along.
--While I prefer Hoyer, I am not going to get into one of these QB A is so much better than QB B thing. And I ask that you guys refrain from that. Let it play out. Let them compete. Allow the best man to win. Picking horses now is way too early. Let the coaches decide which QB is best for the team.
--I still like the idea of keeping both and drafting a guy as a developmental project, but I wouldn't reach on a qb. I think a lot of us have similar mindsets, let's just not turn this into another QB war. Trust the coaches on this one. It's what's best for the team.
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Quote:
--I still like the idea of keeping both and drafting a guy as a developmental project, but I wouldn't reach on a qb. I think a lot of us have similar mindsets, let's just not turn this into another QB war. Trust the coaches on this one. It's what's best for the team.
Holy crap, the end is near... Vers & I agree on something with QB's, lol!
My only amendment would be that I'm all for keeping both and drafting TWO.
I couldn't care less who ends up winning the spot next year as long as they actually earn the spot convincingly, and they back it up with play all season long that is worthy of holding onto the spot. Don't give us an inch of space to root for the backups.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Don't give us an inch of space to root for the backups.
That is the key! As I was typing my earlier reply, I was thinking about how devastating it would be if Hoyer/Campbell were playing poorly and we were losing. The masses would be calling for the rook. I don't think that would bode well for us.
Then again.........who knows what the heck the FO will do? They might trade a ton of draft picks and move up to draft Manziel or Carr first overall [shudder]. How would that be for irony? Just when a bunch of us perpetual "debaters" are agreeing, they go in a completely different direction. 
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My only amendment would be that I'm all for keeping both and drafting TWO.
+1
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Right now...I am all about giving Hoyer a shot next year.
In fact, after seeing the last few games...the New England game in particular...im not sure we should even use any of our 1st rders this year on a QB...im all about grabbing a QB in the 2nd round (I think there will be some decent ones there, Drew Brees was a 2nd rder remember)
The 1st and foremost priorty to get fixed on this team is:
1. The Offensive Line....outside of Thomas and Mack(we better resign him) our OL has been bad...Schwartz im willing to give a little more time to see if he can do something, or move Schwartz to RG, but Pinkston, Lavaou, and Grech just SUCK....those 3 guys need replaced like yesterday....those 3 guys are why we can't run the ball....and their pass protection is very shaky...one game its ok, the next game they suck....those 3 guys need replaced ASAP.
2. CB - We need another corner to pair with Joe Haden. The NFL is a passing league now, and it would be a very good idea to use our 1st rder on another corner...we get another Joe Haden type of corner on the opposite side, and move Buster Skrine to the nickel..we will have one of the best corner trio's in the NFL....
3. FS - we need an upgrade at Free Safety in the worst way...kee TJ Ward he's the hammer, but you gotta have finesse too, and we need a solid free safety whos good in coverage....it will help us tremendously.
4. WR - get someone to pair opposite of Gordon and move Little to the slot.
5. RB - we need a good ball carrier, hopefully we can get Ben Tate via FA, but if we can't we need to get somebody that can be a half way decent back.
So hopefully it shakes out as:
1. Hoyer
2. Campbell
3. 2nd rd pick
Im not sure any of the QB this year are worth a 1st rder...and you don't want to reach just for the sake of taking a QB when you can get much better talent value at other positions....I think better QB are coming out next year, so that may be the time....
don't get me wrong, if we draft a 1st rder, i will welcome him to cleveland....but i don't think its a good idea yet until we fix that offensive line....outside of Thomas and Mack, the rest of those guys blow chunks and need replaced...
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This new front office (Who scare the crap out of me buy the way) Brought in both QB's and both of them are better than any QB we have had for years. Once again I will chill out and watch & learn before I go off the deep end like so many of you guys do.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Quote:
--I still like the idea of keeping both and drafting a guy as a developmental project, but I wouldn't reach on a qb. I think a lot of us have similar mindsets
I believe we could see them draft a QB with the first pick we have and still not be reaching for a QB. Maybe I'm mistaken by your meaning here. If so I'm sure you'll tell me.
By 'developmental guy" are you suggesting a second round pick or later? Maybe that's not what you mean at all, not sure.
However, we have both agreed that it's very hard to evaluate QB's given the system they play in and how that will translate in the NFL. However, I do believe that this FO should be far better at that than we are.
So while I would question them giving up picks to move up, I wouldn't question them taking a QB with our first or second pick in the first round.
While you or I may see it as a reach, I would have to give them the benefit of the doubt in having a far better ability to evaluate QB's than we are. I believe it's best for any rookie QB to have the benefit of sitting for a year and if that works out for anyone who is picked anywhere in this draft I find it to be a positive.
So maybe I simply misunderstood what you meant in regards to being a "developmental QB". But I could see us taking a QB early and still not consider it a reach until we see what we have in the kid.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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One thing I have noticed which for me again makes it not even a debate. Campbell does not go through progressions. Even his Check downs most of the time seem predetermined. What I mean is the guy who is in there chip blocking and then right at the end breaks out for a wide open 3 yard pass with YAC is totally ignored and the RB who went out for a swing pass and has been standing there in a zone will bet targeted...thats not progression - thats a one read and lock on with a check down. What I would teach NEW QBs who are teenagers.
Campbell is a more mature version of WEEDEN...Hoyer and I can care less about stats was the only QB we had play this year that consistently went through progressions and moving his feet accordingly.
That is why if there is a discussion on who to start next year while our NEW Rookie QB develops...It should be Hoyer.
Not cause he is a Home town boy - although I perceive that as a Bonus
Not cause he is white I'm sure there are some out there that still are latent racists but thank goodness times have changed...I still am a little PO'd about Warren Moon as far as I'm concerned he's the Sachel Paige of football.
But thank goodness those days have come n gone!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Campbell is a more mature version of WEEDEN...Hoyer and I can care less about stats was the only QB we had play this year that consistently went through progressions and moving his feet accordingly.
Weeden isn't even in the same league as Campbell, which is middling starter. Weeden is a pure backup. The only question is he a #2 or a #3 in terms of quality.
As for Hoyer, I didn't see him go through progressions. I saw him got to his first read almost exclusively before going to the checkdown, which is where all his INT's and near-INT's came from. Now that's something one would expect from a guy with little experience, but again as has been talked about before, there's such a small sample size that it's impossible to accurately say much of anything about Hoyer other than he can scramble and gets the ball out quickly.
Since you stated the local boy winning would be a bonus, I'm going to make the leap of faith and just go ahead and call you a Homer
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Campbell and Hoyer
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