DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Can Hoyer Be the Guy?

I like Hoyer. He moves the team, and that is the only stat I really care about.

Personally, I like the one stat that matters most., and it doesn't relate to JUST the QB.

Wins and Losses....

Neither wins nor third down conversion percentage is an individual performance metric.

YPA and completion percentage are valuable for evaluating QBs because there are relatively few external influences that affect them. Drops do, but that's about it. TD:INT ratio is right behind that, but is slightly less telling because not all interceptions are the fault of the QB.

Completion percentage and yards per attempt are not dependent on others? LMAO

Quit while you are only a "little" behind.

Re-read this thread. I think that I might have even mentioned Weeden in this very thread.

Look hard and I bet you'll find it.

Some agenda corrections:

- Hoyer is 2-1 as a starter

- Hoyer has a 7/6 TD/INT ratio

Weeden DOES have a career 6.5yds/PA, by common math standard

Some consequences following your reasoning:

- Dilfer was the best QB in 2000

- Harbaugh was an idiot for benching A.Smith

Yds/PA is more directly tied to a QBs performance than bottom line wins, who are more of a correlation and directly tied to overalll team performance.

I certainly don't have some sort of agenda. I used the same argument regarding McCoy. Weeden improved, but not to the point I expect a starting QB to reach. Hoyer came in, and started out somewhat rough in his 1st game. (even with 3 TD passes) He looked much better in start 2. (ironically I have said this numerous times on this thread, , yet Vers somehow missed that)

I said that McCoy didn't seem like a guy who could win in the NFL because his average yards/attempt was about 5.9 after Mangini left. I honestly believe that to be the case. Would he have been better if Mangini had stayed? I don't know. It's well known that Mangini wasn't a McCoy fan, while that walrus faced SOB wanted to develop him. Over the course of one year McCoy went from being the future, to being the past .... even in the eyes of the very guy who originally pushed to draft him.

Anyway, I feel that the average yards/attempt is the one stat that encompasses many aspects of QB play. As I mentioned earlier, Tebow was a big throw QB, Out of 271 throws, he went 20+ 25 times. He had 6 throws that went 40+. Despite this, his average yards/attempt was rather pedestrian at 6.4. His completion percentage, which factors into average yards/attempt, was too low to allow him to reach and acceptable level.

If we want to talk generalities, I also happen to think that a stud QB should be able to hit the 20-25 TD range regularly. He should be able to do this without throwing 15 INT. I think that he should be able to hit 60% in pass completions, however some QBs playing in a deeper pass scheme will have a lower completion percentage. YAC for the receivers is important ..... and can reflect on both the receiver and the QB.

That's the way I look at it anyway.

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Harbaugh was an idiot for benching A.Smith

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This might end up being true.

Do we have a stat on how many game winning drives Weeden has been successful in? I'm talking touchdowns, too.

Hoyer shows promise in two game winning drives in his first two starts with us. I think many of you are missing that fact, honestly. Even DA had to have Phil bail him out a few times.

Interesting question.

I'd like to know a li'l something about this, as well.

SIXES, Dawgs.... not flameouts in the Red Zone that resulted in 3 points....

Actual TOUCHDOWNS.


Now THAT would be a telling stat....


just sayin'

Nah. The Niners lost Vernon Davis and lost Ted Ginn to free agency ..... and their defense gave up 28, 29, and 27 in their 1st 3 games.

Know how many times they gave up as many as 28 points in any game last year? Twice in the 2012 regular season.

They also are not running the ball like they did last year. They ran for 2491 yards last year. This year they are on pace for about 400 fewer rushing yards.

They have never been a huge passing team. (Under Harbaugh) They threw for 300+ yards one time last year .... including the playoffs. IN their 1st 4 games last season they ran for 186, 148, 89, and 247 yards. This year? 90, 110, 115, and 219. Guess which was their most dominating win so far this year. In their 2 losses this year they allowed 172 and 184 yards rushing. They only allowed 100 yards rushing in 6 games last year, including the playoffs and Super Bowl.

They are a run the ball and play defense, and take advantage of situations in the passing game type of team. This year they have had trouble playing defense and running the ball.

The 49ers didn't lose Vernon Davis. They lose Delani Walker.

They gained Anquan Boldin but lost Michael Crabtree to an Achilles injury.

Out of time, gotta run.

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They also are not running the ball like they did last year. They ran for 2491 yards last year. This year they are on pace for about 400 fewer rushing yards.

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Their run game started really slow but has been on fire the last 2 weeks.

Week 1 Gore had a bad week. 21 carries for 44 yrds and a 2.1 avg/carry but 49ers Beat GB
Week 2 Gore only has 9 carries for 16 yards 1.8/carry 49ers lose to Seattle
Weeks 3 Gore is averaging 7.5 yards/carry but only gets 11 carries! 49ers lose to Indy
Week 4 Gore has 20 rushes for 153 yrds. 7.6/carry. 49ers beat StL

As I was typing out those stats I noticed that regardless of how productive their run game is, in the 2 games Gore had around 20 carries (one productive, one not) the 49ers won. In the 2 games that Gore got only around 10 carries in the game (again one productive, one not) they lost.

And those extra carries in the wins were not from running down the clock at the end of the game which could skew this stat if we aren't careful. Seems to me Harbaugh needs to take note.

Man, from what you're saying, it sure sounds like they could use a low risk QB that knows how to manage games well, and doesn't allow the defense to sell out against the run...

Been reading this thread since it started but with so many good comments I didn't really feel I had anything to add. Probably still don't. But there is the following gem...


Watching Browns Red Zone last night on Sports Time Ohio Mary Kay brought up something interesting. That most NFL players have lived and breathed football all their lives from an early age but that Weeden hasn't really played a lot of football or for all that long.

She thought maybe that's why he struggles with some things.

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Do we have a stat on how many game winning drives Weeden has been successful in? I'm talking touchdowns, too.

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Considering he's only won 5 games, how long could it take to look that up?

Man, I consider myself a pretty objective dude when it comes to the Browns, but I don't find that to be accurate at all. If I give the "game-winner" to any Browns player in that game, it's Sheldon Brown.

Nope, because Weeden's TD gave us a score (27) higher than the Bengals ended up with (24). Had the Bengals scored even a FG to tie, and thus taking the decision away, then Sheldon would get it. In this case, he was just the final nail in the coffin.... but, they were already put away based upon score.

I suppose you are correct as far as official stats go, but I think I'm going to carry Diam's battle standard on this one. I can't speak for everyone, but I think I felt the game was officially won when Sheldon made the pick 6.

I suppose the drive to put the score ahead was on Weeden, but the Bengals sure had a good chance to catch up. If anything, I'd say it was more of an indictment against Dalton (how awesome is it that he's lost 2 straight to the Browns!?!?!?).

Honestly, if anything, I'd give much more credit to Brandon for what he did in Dallas as opposed to what he did against Cincinnati. IIRC, the Refs/Defense were a lot more culpable in the Cowboys game last year. There was a lot more pressure for Weeden to get it done, with a lot less time, and he excelled in that situation.

I was just explaining how he would have gotten credit for a game winning drive.... and there it is. His drive gave us a score that was higher than their final score. Sheldon's TD was just icing on the cake. It isn't even about Diam's mantra or even looking at stats... .it is simply how and when points were put on the board.

No different than deciding which pitcher in a game gets credit for the win, or save, or not save, or whatever else it is they track in that goofy game.

The Dallas game is the only one where I thought to myself that he could be a solid NFL starting QB...

...and then he threw the coaching staff under the bus after the loss.

We're all wasting our time talking about the guy. He's done here. Throw him on the pile with all the other failed QB's.

Thought this was a good read and belonged here:

web page

Brian Hoyer living true Hollywood tale with Cleveland Browns

By Michael Silver


Ultimately, he couldn't bear to watch.

Released on the final cut-down day by the New England Patriots, the franchise that had employed him as a backup quarterback for three seasons, Hoyer had tuned in weekly to view pro football's equivalent of the classified ads, trolling for a team that might desire his services. By mid-November, Hoyer was fed up: Instead of torturing himself by staring at the tube all day, he and his wife, Lauren, took their infant son, Garrett, to a park near their Avon Lake, Ohio home.

"You're sitting there just waiting for an opportunity, and it really drives you crazy," Hoyer, now the league's most surprising starting quarterback, recalled earlier this week. "You watch and watch and watch ... and you get frustrated. So finally, one Sunday, I couldn't take it anymore. Instead of watching, we went to the park."

As if conveniently conceived by a Hollywood screenwriter, Hoyer's professional life was about to take a dramatic turn. The following day, Hoyer got a call from the Pittsburgh Steelers, whose starting quarterback (Ben Roethlisberger) and backup (Byron Leftwich) had been injured in consecutive weeks. Released by Pittsburgh in early December, Hoyer finished the season in Arizona, making his first career start in the Cardinals' season-ending defeat to the San Francisco 49ers.

Eventually, the road circled back to its origin: On Thursday night, when the Cleveland Browns host the Buffalo Bills on NFL Network, Hoyer will try to lead his hometown team to its third consecutive victory, a streak that began after he replaced the injured Brandon Weeden and energized a moribund offense reeling from the stunning trade that sent halfback Trent Richardson to the Indianapolis Colts.

In guiding the Browns (2-2) past the Minnesota Vikings and Cincinnati Bengals in consecutive weeks, Hoyer has exhibited a fiery persona that is the antithesis of couch potato.

"He's been a take-charge guy," said Joe Thomas, the Browns' perennial All-Pro left tackle. "He's very confident, and he's back there delivering the ball decisively. It's been really impressive."

Though Weeden, who missed the previous two games with a sprained right thumb, returned to practice this week, Hoyer seems to have usurped the 2012 first-round draft pick as the Browns' starter. Coach Rob Chudzinski says he will evaluate the position on a week-to-week basis, but it's clear that Hoyer -- elevated from third string in the wake of Weeden's injury -- will get every chance to seize the position.

As he tries to complete the unlikely climb from unemployed afterthought to legitimate NFL starter, Hoyer has a lot of people in his corner. For starters, he has the support of a frustrated fan base eager to see a local kid who grew up idolizing Bernie Kosar lead the Browns into relevance.

Hoyer's fan club also includes some of the NFL's most prominent players, from Tom Brady to Larry Fitzgerald, the Cardinals' star wideout.

"That's my boy," Fitzgerald said of Hoyer, who became expendable in Arizona in May, after the team traded for Carson Palmer. "He was a great teammate. I miss having him with us.

"He is meticulous and pays attention to all the details. He would stay after practice and throw routes with me and study film. He understands coverages and has the arm strength to make all the throws."

Not long ago, Hoyer thought he'd have a chance to throw to Fitzgerald in 2013. Last March, two months after Bruce Arians took over as the Cardinals' head coach, the team retained Hoyer's rights by using a second-round tender worth $2.02 million on him. Less than one week later, Arizona signed free agent Drew Stanton, whom Hoyer once had backed up at Michigan State, to a three-year, $8.2 million contract.
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"I thought the Arizona situation was going to be a good one for me," Hoyer said. "I thought I'd have a chance to compete. Obviously they signed Drew, and I've known Drew since college, so I was feeling good about it. Then they made the trade (for Palmer), and I realized it wasn't gonna work out the way I planned."

At that point, Hoyer dreaded the prospect of another post-training-camp release that would leave him without options. The Patriots, after all, had given him a second-round tender in March of 2012, only to cut him (and go with just two quarterbacks, Brady and Ryan Mallett) shortly before the start of the season.

"When I got released at the end of camp like that, I was really all alone," Hoyer recalled. "I had no connections throughout the rest of the league. That was the only place I'd been. None of the coaches I'd been with had fanned out to other places. No one really knew about the times when Tom was out the whole week of practice and I was running the whole team."

With that in mind, Hoyer (through his agent) asked the Cardinals to release him in the wake of the Palmer trade -- and general manager Steve Keim granted the player's wish.

"I just wanted to get out of there quicker rather than later," Hoyer said, "and they kind of did right by me. I'd rather go somewhere where maybe I was a little more wanted."

That place turned out to be Cleveland, the city where Hoyer sometimes attended Browns games as a kid -- including the old incarnation of the franchise's final game at Cleveland Municipal Stadium in 1995, before the move to Baltimore (and name change to Ravens) the following season.

Once that happened, Hoyer said, "I really didn't follow any football, college or pro. They didn't have a team here, so I just didn't get into it. I kind of got caught up in my own games."

Now, Hoyer's performances and those of his home team have intersected -- but he's not getting caught up in the sentiment of the experience. Instead, he's focused on not looking too far ahead, and compelling his teammates to do the same. Earlier this week, Hoyer broke down the Browns after practice and reminded them not to get caught up in their recent success.

"You can tell he was influenced by his time in New England," right tackle Mitchell Schwartz said of Hoyer. "He told us that we can't start feeling too good about ourselves or looking too far past this, that we need to take care of this game, and nothing else is important."

Well, almost nothing: As fate would have it, Lauren Hoyer is due with the couple's second child on Oct. 21, just as her husband's responsibilities at the workplace have markedly increased.

"When you take on the starting role, it's so time-consuming," Brian Hoyer said. "She kind of realizes it's the chance I've been waiting for my whole life, and she's been really cool.

"I don't want to complain about this in any way, because we were lucky enough to get pregnant, when I know some people have a hard time with that. But it's obviously not the best timing. Yet of course it's an incredible opportunity."

And after having endured all those Sundays last autumn as a forlorn couch potato, Hoyer has no intention of taking it lightly.

Good enough for Joe, good enough for me.

Fitz isn't a bad endorsement either

beat me to it... I was thinking the same thing.

Wow! Great article. Got me pumped up.

I admit I didn't think much of this kid when we signed him. I wasn't thrilled when he was named the starter. But, his play is winning me over. I think he is gutsy. I think he's smart. I think he is a leader. I could be wrong. It could be wishful thinking. Still not sure.

But, I have to say that I am really starting to root for him. Not only would it be the best case scenario for the Browns [can you imagine the talent we could acquire in the draft w/all those picks] but also because Hoyer is the kinda guy that is easy for me to root for.

He's the underdog. Maybe the guy w/enough talent and brains to be a guy, but the guy who never got a fair shot because of his physical measureables. I felt bad for him when I read parts of that article. I rooting for the guy.

Oh..........and it finally came to me who he reminds me of. We've been comparing him to all kinds of guys. None of those clicked w/me, but I think I have it now.

Kurt "Freaking" Warner.

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Kurt "Freaking" Warner.

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I actually thought the same thing earlier today. I'd like to see some old tape of Warner next to Hoyer. That would be interesting.

I doubt anyone here has anything but the highest hopes for BH. I know I'd love to see him keep on winning. But we've all been down this road before so it's hard to believe something great like this can happen to a Browns fan.

The question is if we win tonight:

Will I have to give my tickets to my brother-in-law every week? (He's there tonight)

Should I wear these same clothes every week without washing them?

Will Bernie have to get a DUI every week? (too soon?)

Will I have to drink the same beer every game?

I'm willing to do my part.....

Cool. We agreed on something. Maybe there is something in the stars for the Browns this year.

I agree that it is so hard to believe that something so good could happen to us Brown's fans. We've all been burned so many times and it is probably the biggest reason why we are always at each others' throats.

Great sacrifice on the beer decision. I think I'll make the same sacrifice. LOL

Btw----------how cool is it that Hoyer's dad has season tickets and his family is tailgating at the game?

Well, I make my own beer so I can help everyone sacrifice if need be.

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Will I have to drink the same beer every game?

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Same brand yes, the actual same beer no.