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LOL Love Joe's comments on Kickers .......  As talk of roster uncertainty builds, Cleveland Browns' veterans ready to ride with youth in 'today's NFL' | cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._special-reportBEREA, Ohio – Eleven years and “about 60 pounds” ago, Joe Thomas was a high-school placekicker. He could convert field goals from roughly 40 yards using the straight-on kicking style favored by Browns legends of yore. “Me and Lou Groza,” Thomas said laughing. The six-time Pro Bowl left tackle isn’t auditioning for the team’s opening at kicker today or losing any sleep about the lack of depth at running back, receiver and cornerback or the youth of the roster. “It’s hard for people to believe it, but it’s not something we really worry about,” Thomas said. “Maybe the coaches or the guys who have to shuffle people around do, but if you look at the top 25 guys, the guys who are going to be playing the most, it’s been set since April 1. There wasn’t a lot of consternation over who is going to be the starting right tackle. It’s the guys at the bottom who are being shuffled around.” While roster uncertainty and a heavy reliance on first- and second-year players are major talking points outside the Browns locker room, the team’s veterans are, at least publicly, downplaying such concerns in advance of Sunday’s season opener against the Miami Dolphins. The club is the second youngest in the NFL behind only the St. Louis Rams and features nine undrafted rookie free agents. Twenty-seven players on the 46-man active roster are in their first or second NFL season. As Browns fans focus on their team's greenness, several veterans said it exemplifies life in the post-2010 NFL with its collective bargaining agreement that includes a rookie salary cap. The Dolphins come to Cleveland sporting 20 players on their active roster with less than two years of service. No team in the AFC North has fewer than 17 players fitting the description. Still, these aren’t the Browns of Eric Mangini, who reshaped the lineup with veterans. Only the Rams have more players (28) in their first or second years. “That’s today’s NFL to be honest . . . the value of rookies and their entry contracts is a lot higher,” Thomas said. “You are getting the same performance or near the same performance and you don’t have to pay them anything versus your vets which you have to pay what they are worth on the market.” Browns safety T.J. Ward observers the same trend. He will play alongside Tashaun Gipson, a second-year undrafted free agent. Gipson’s path to the starting free safety’s job was cleared in part when the club released veteran Usama Young in the offseason. “I definitely think we are going to see more of it,” Ward said. “If there is a close competition between a rookie and an older vet the rookie is probably going to get the nod.” Prior to the 2011 collective bargaining agreement, offseasons were rife with stories of “salary-cap casualties.” As of Monday, nearly a third of the teams were at least $10 million under the $123 million cap, according to data from the NFL Players Association. The league average is $9.1 million with the Browns sitting a whopping $27 million below the bar. “With a team like we are on right now with a new GM and new coach and owner they are going to want to bring in as many young guys as they can and put together a good core nucleus,” Thomas said. “That’s just the nature of the NFL” Linebacker D’Qwell Jackson, playing for his fourth coach in eight years, said he’s come to “expect the unexpected” with the Browns. He expressed disappointment in losing “ a lot of good guys,” but voiced his confidence in CEO Joe Banner’s ability to assemble a team. Jackson believes the “foundation is set.” Center Alex Mack said many of the 2012 rookies performed well and that most league rosters represent a “wide spectrum” of players from first rounders to undrafted free agents. “It doesn’t matter where you start but where you finish,” Mack said. Ward was a walk-on at Oregon who transformed himself into a 2010 second-round draft pick. He’s not troubled by the fact the Browns have 17 undrafted players in their first or second seasons. “Those guys are totally capable of helping us,” he said. The kicking situation is becoming a public-relations nightmare given the popularity of Phil Dawson, who was allowed to leave via free agency despite coming off a Pro Bowl season. Thomas has tremendous respect for his former teammate but, unlike many fans, he isn’t worried the club is trying out kickers five days before the opener. His point is Dawson’s replacement doesn’t need to absorb a playbook to succeed on Sunday. “The special teams coach is probably pulling his hair out, but most of us realize you can trade kickers like chairs,” Thomas said. “It’s not like there is any game plan . . . You certainly can bring a guy in off the street and have him kick it through the uprights.” As uncertainty abounds, Browns veterans are ready to ride on a roster filled with youth. Maybe it is emblematic of “today’s NFL,” but it won't allay fans' fears of another losing season.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I don't like when people spin "youth" as a good thing. It usually just means you're not a good football team.
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I would feel a whole lot better about our youth movement for our cap situation if the FO would have signed Mack & Ward to contract extensions this offseason.
#gmstrong
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So Joe, tell us how you really feel about kickers, lmao.
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I've been saying the same thing about kickers. I guess I don't have the same credibility as our 6-time Pro Bowl left tackle.
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Never get a 4th down, and always go for 2.
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At least that would be exciting. Better than Shurmur punting down four with 30 seconds left and no timeouts on the other teams 30 yard line (I know he didn't actually do that, but you have to admit it's at least possible that he might have done it given the opportunity.)
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Practice Squad
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yeah the game plan for kicking isnt too difficult, and doesnt vary too much form one team to another.
1. Stand
2. Adjust your stance to look a little more awkward.
3. Step forward and kick ball AFTER it is placed in front of you.
the toughest step is #3, gotta remember to wait till the ball is on the ground in front of you............ pretty tricky to grasp.
These guys literally do one thing, kick a stationary object. They have done so probably 20,000 times.
as for the youth, i dont think its a concern. When youre a perennial playoff team, and all of a sudden youre replacing veterans who have had a ton of success, yeah, that may be a bit concerning. When you are a team that hasnt hit 6 wins in the past 5 years, you arent going to see a huge dropoff in production by employing a younger team than the 5 years prior. We've replaced mediocre old players with youthful players who have upside.
Phil dawson, yeah, theres a drop off there, but its my belief that phil would not have come back, he either was going to a winner for a chance at a ring, or retiring. ben watson and sheldon brown were two old guys with waning skills, who were replaced for younger guys with upside. this happened across the board.
we have a good foundation to build on. o line and d line are solid if not spectacular, thats the most important foundation, which is also made up of players who have twice the shelf life of skill positions. so we have that locked up on both sides. We have youth and skill at linebacker. we have some skill and youth at WR.
really, we only have a handful of question marks at starting positions. QB, TE, CB2, FS, ILB. im certain atleast ONE of those 5 starting spots will end up shining. So even if we have to replace 4 of those 5, i think we can do so in next years draft when we have 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7. Hell, those can be address with our first 4 picks. Throw in some FA additions and all of a sudden all 22 of our starters are either solid, FAs, or high pick rookies.
Our biggest struggle has been due to coaching, imo. i think were on the right path and im not concerned that our roster lacks the ability to compete in this league, at all.
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Quote:
“That’s today’s NFL to be honest . . . the value of rookies and their entry contracts is a lot higher,” Thomas said. “You are getting the same performance or near the same performance and you don’t have to pay them anything versus your vets which you have to pay what they are worth on the market.”
I get exactly what he's saying. The FO is inept and has no plan. 
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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At least that would be exciting. Better than Shurmur punting down four with 30 seconds left and no timeouts on the other teams 30 yard line (I know he didn't actually do that, but you have to admit it's at least possible that he might have done it given the opportunity.)
Something similar to this is why we saw this reaction from Haslam:
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Yeah! Kickers don't matter at all. I mean really, I don't evern remember who our previous kicker was. They don't score points or need to be reliable or nothing.
It surprises me how many are calm about our kicking situation. Just wait until the first missed fg. With our fans heckling him on the sidelines, that kicker's head will never be right again.
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Yeah! Kickers don't matter at all. I mean really, I don't evern remember who our previous kicker was. They don't score points or need to be reliable or nothing.
It surprises me how many are calm about our kicking situation. Just wait until the first missed fg. With our fans heckling him on the sidelines, that kicker's head will never be right again.
It surprises me that anyone is still worrying about it anymore., Dude, it's over, done. That's it..
As for heckling him from the sidelines,, Only jerkwad fans would do that.., Only damn fools would do that. the rest of us know that Dawson missed FG's also. And there was a time, maybe 4 or 5 years ago that the very fans that are yelling and screaming about dawson being gone are some of the same ones saying the FO we have are fools for letting him get away..
What the hell, the other front office had 3 freaking years to get him under contract here and didn't accomplish it.. What the hell was the problem. Dawson, or what.
In three years, if both sides want a deal done it WILL get done. and it didn't..
So whats that say? It says that two different regimes didn't get a long term deal done with Dawson,,, you do the math,, it's DAWSON that didn't want to be here IMO.
That is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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In three years, if both sides want a deal done it WILL get done. and it didn't..
So whats that say? It says that two different regimes didn't get a long term deal done with Dawson,,, you do the math,, it's DAWSON that didn't want to be here IMO.
Well said, but it still won't stop what some guys "want to" believe.
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Quote:
Quote:
In three years, if both sides want a deal done it WILL get done. and it didn't..
So whats that say? It says that two different regimes didn't get a long term deal done with Dawson,,, you do the math,, it's DAWSON that didn't want to be here IMO.
Well said, but it still won't stop what some guys "want to" believe.
No it won't stop them from being fooled by the media, who likes to fuel controversy.
One thing for sure, if there isn't something compelling to talk about, they'll create a crisis.. Guaranteed..
I feel bad for those that fall for the medias attempt to twist anything..
Man, I'm in a bad mood tonight.. LOL Not a good night to TICK ME OFF
Last edited by Damanshot; 09/03/13 08:28 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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As for heckling him from the sidelines,, Only jerkwad fans would do that.., Only damn fools would do that.
It's not like it will only be a select few individuals. Unfortunately, I witnessed a large portion of the crowd stupidly chanting "Elway sucks" right before the drive.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Trust me I am not trying to beat a dead horse but mark my words everybody will be missing Phil by the end of the season.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I miss him right now. But it is what it is...
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Trust me I am not trying to beat a dead horse but mark my words everybody will be missing Phil by the end of the season.
We definitely will.
But at this point, I think there's pretty much a consensus that what's done is done. The two sides got together to talk, he wanted something long-term, we didn't. It wasn't in the cards, best of luck, Phil. Everyone handled it with class. It's a business, not a family.
I'm upset about it myself, but I've moved on.
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~ Legend
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Can you really move on from a true love? 
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Can you really move on from a true love?
I would have felt a lot more comfortable with Carpenters stats that Cundiffs. I just hope it doesn't end up costing us.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Can you really move on from a true love?
Fair enough.
The guy's going to get all the love in the world when Cundiff misses a field goal that could've won it, and I'll probably moan, too.
But the new FO didn't want to dish out a long-term deal. I disagree with it, but what's done is done.
Ideally, we have a great year, are poised for the playoffs next year, and Phil comes back for one last go around. It's a pipe dream, but why not, eh?
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Trust me I am not trying to beat a dead horse but mark my words everybody will be missing Phil by the end of the season.
I wish he was here but if the guy didnt want to play here then good luck to him....
<><
#gmstrong
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Quote:
In three years, if both sides want a deal done it WILL get done. and it didn't..
So whats that say? It says that two different regimes didn't get a long term deal done with Dawson,,, you do the math,, it's DAWSON that didn't want to be here IMO.
I guess you haven't been paying attention. It's been well documented on the interwebs (meaning on this board) that the reason Dawson isn't here is because the new regime let him go.
I guess Dawson doesn't pay attention either, because he acts like it was his choice to move on. He might be too busy to follow that story on here, but still no excuse. Get it straight, Phil.
When the previous regime couldn't sign him long term and franchised him twice instead ... never mind. That's irrelevant. That's apples to ... other apples.
I do admire the evil genius of the current regime. They hate old players so much that after kicking Dawson to the curb against his will they signed Graham just so they can boot him out at the last cuts. That will show those geezers. This front office will not bring in anyone over 30. Ignore Jason Campbell an Billy Cundiff. Irrelevant.
And, finally, ... anyone who is still hurt is a punk.
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Two years were Holgrems fault, one year was Banner's fault.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Everyone handled it with class.
This important point seems to be lost in the discussion. There's been no ill will spewed from either side, leading me to believe both sides were OK with what happened.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
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Yeah! Kickers don't matter at all. I mean really, I don't evern remember who our previous kicker was. They don't score points or need to be reliable or nothing.
It surprises me how many are calm about our kicking situation. Just wait until the first missed fg. With our fans heckling him on the sidelines, that kicker's head will never be right again.
It surprises me that anyone is still worrying about it anymore., Dude, it's over, done. That's it..
As for heckling him from the sidelines,, Only jerkwad fans would do that.., Only damn fools would do that. the rest of us know that Dawson missed FG's also. And there was a time, maybe 4 or 5 years ago that the very fans that are yelling and screaming about dawson being gone are some of the same ones saying the FO we have are fools for letting him get away..
What the hell, the other front office had 3 freaking years to get him under contract here and didn't accomplish it.. What the hell was the problem. Dawson, or what.
In three years, if both sides want a deal done it WILL get done. and it didn't..
So whats that say? It says that two different regimes didn't get a long term deal done with Dawson,,, you do the math,, it's DAWSON that didn't want to be here IMO.
That is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Whoa there guy. I guess you are a bit touchy tonight. I never mentioned Phil Dawson. My reference was solely intended for the way the front office seems to have very little success in remedying the current/future kicking situation. My reference to the fans is simply fact. Get enough drunk Browns fans in one place and have the "after thought" kicker we signed screw up and see what happens.
As far as Dawson goes, I completely understand what transpired with him. A deal couldn't get done for one reason or another. While I would have loved to see him retire a Brown, you can't fault a guy for wanting to win a Super Bowl.
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As for heckling him from the sidelines,, Only jerkwad fans would do that.., Only damn fools would do that
...which constitutes roughly a quarter of the stadium.
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Two years were Holgrems fault, one year was Banner's fault.
THREE years were HECKERTS fault. 2010, 2011, 2012. that's just a fact.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
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Two years were Holgrems fault, one year was Banner's fault.
THREE years were HECKERTS fault. 2010, 2011, 2012. that's just a fact.
Or an opinion...you know...those exist too 
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Quote:
Quote:
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Two years were Holgrems fault, one year was Banner's fault.
THREE years were HECKERTS fault. 2010, 2011, 2012. that's just a fact.
Or an opinion...you know...those exist too
2010 was contract year. heckert never talked to him. that's why he sold his house and moved. just a fact.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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It is good to have a kicker. All the other clubs have one. We are told we are all set, so we must be. I miss Dawson, and I may REALLY mis him with Cundiff's toe. Pressure is a measure of kickers caliber IMO. Has shown he chokes at times. I will pull for him because he is a Brown. We had wins because of Dawson, seldom in spite of Dawson. It remains to be seen if "best available leg" is good enough. It is obvious we settled. I am not confident in this guy; I was with Phil. But we have moved on. Go, Billy; don't suck. If we put up points, this is a non-issue. Lame FO handling though, IMO, regardless of JT's truth. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Cleveland Browns' fans can learn a lot about the organization's expectations from the roster cutdown -- Bud Shaw's Sports Spin September 03, 2013 CLEVELAND, Ohio – Thin to win is a popular expression in golf. Not so much in the NFL ... As the Browns finalize their roster for the season opener Sunday against the Miami Dolphins, their decisions have begged many questions. None is more obvious than this: Giorgio Tavecchio: place kicker or men’s fragrance. This kicker quandry is not the smell of losing in the air, just the whiff of a team that’s not built to win this season and knows it. John Hart, the old Indians’ GM, used to say closers grew on trees. The Browns could be accused of believing the same about kickers but under closer roster scrutiny it’s obvious they instead believe putting lots of money (or even a draft pick) into finding Phil Dawson’s replacement would be like shopping for a bow tie to go with a flannel shirt. They’re not ready to win. Their youth screams it. Their depth at critical spots – secondary, running back – second the motion. So we have a Tuesday kickoff before the Sunday kickoff -- a competition between the Italian darkhorse Tavecchio and Billy Cundiff. Cundiff was declared the winner. From Joe Banner to Mike Lombardi to head coach Rob Chudzinski, the Browns are super casual about the pursuit of a kicker. There's always the two-point conversion, I guess. And, for kickoffs, the T-shirt cannon. Not making a hard run at Dawson is one thing. His age doesn’t fit their rebuilding demographic. But there’s a lot of middle ground between deciding to move on from Dawson and not settling on a dependable replacement before now. Other teams – not necessarily teams on the brink of the playoffs – have used the middle rounds to draft a kicker. Like the Dolphins, who picked Caleb Sturgis in the fifth round. The Browns used the middle rounds to get higher picks in better middle rounds next season. That was another indication of the rebuilding underway. In the meantime, they brought in one kicker who never kicked in the NFL before (Brandon Bogotay) and another (Shayne Graham) whose leg left much to be desired on that pesky part of the game – kickoffs. “In places I’ve been before and situations I’ve been before, we’ve had kickers throughout the course of the season,” Chudzinski said in announcing the cuts last weekend. “It’s probably the one position where a guy can come in, and it’s unique in that way. There’s not a lot of interaction with teammates and getting to learn systems. It’s pretty much an individualized skill, so I’m not concerned about it. I feel like between the pool that’s there and the guys who have been here, we’ll find the guy that we need.” Chudzinski might be right. But Chud, Banner and Lombardi should understand if it around here it has the sound of famous last words. web page
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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LOL If it's negative about this regime, you can bet it will get posted by Mac...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Sorry, yes, I was ticked at everything the other night.. not you.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
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As for heckling him from the sidelines,, Only jerkwad fans would do that.., Only damn fools would do that
...which constitutes roughly a quarter of the stadium.
1 fan, 5000 fans,, doesn't matter.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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run forest, run...
close your eyes, plug your ears and start chanting loudly...la, la, la, la...can't hear you... 
Heaven forbid, should someone have an opposing viewpoint...independent thinking not allowed here?  
The Browns front office is in dire need of leadership with experience on the "football side" of an NFL franchise.
There is a common denominator to most of these latest moves...see if you can figure it out.. 
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Posts: 15,015
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Only in Cleveland can position of kicker, except for one responsible for missing a chip shot FG to win a SB, get this much press. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,867
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,867 |
Quote:
run forest, run...
close your eyes, plug your ears and start chanting loudly...la, la, la, la...can't hear you...
Heaven forbid, should someone have an opposing viewpoint...independent thinking not allowed here?
The Browns front office is in dire need of leadership with experience on the "football side" of an NFL franchise.
There is a common denominator to most of these latest moves...see if you can figure it out..
Hey,, have any point of view you want,, no problem to me,, Just saying, if it's negative about the current regime, you'll find it.
Most of us aren't as big of Negative Nancys as you are..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,620
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,620 |
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LOL If it's negative about this regime, you can bet it will get posted by Mac...
Wow, I didn't notice that was from mac. Didn't use his normal color of text and it was kind of in stealth mode.
eh ... it was an article. I have no issues with him posting it. Just another guy in the press who doesn't realize that when it comes to new contracts the player has a say in it as well.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
But there’s a lot of middle ground between deciding to move on from Dawson and not settling on a dependable replacement before now.
Other teams – not necessarily teams on the brink of the playoffs – have used the middle rounds to draft a kicker. Like the Dolphins, who picked Caleb Sturgis in the fifth round.
From what I could find, 8 of the top 10 field goal kickers by percentage made last season were undrafted. One of the others was Sebastian Janikowski... maybe we should have taken a kicker in the first round.
yebat' Putin
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Joe Thomas on the Young Roster,
and Kickers .....
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