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In the discussion about gun control I asked repeatedly what was the bed rock of freedom, and nobody could answer that question it's strange that in a “free society”, no one seems to be able to answer this basic question of all the freedoms we enjoy there is actually one freedom that cannot be taken from us and as long as that is true we can never be enslaved as a people.
Yet when you ask this question no one can answer, they don’t understand the foundation of freedom and what keeps and makes us free.
Some think that guns guarantee our freedom, but they don’t in fact its not even close.
In the following piece I have chosen the Romanian revolution as a prime example of what sets a people free and guarantees their freedom and ours as well, I will leave it to you all to connect the dots and I am very interested to see if some of you can connect the dots.
I made a few comments ( ) for clarity and highlighted certain events in bold as they were key events.
The purpose of using the Romanian revolution was that is took place over a very short time span (just over a week) and it is representative of the revolutions we have seen thru out Eastern Europe and North Africa.
Don’t get hung up on names it could be Bill, Frank, Bob, Tony that part doesn’t matter its why and what caused these events to take place.
Connect the Dots.
What is it that makes and keeps people Free
In 1981, Ceausescu began an austerity program designed to enable Romania to liquidate its entire national debt ($10 billion). In order to achieve this, many basic goods, including gas, heat and food were rationed, which drastically reduced the standard of living in Romania and increased malnutrition and the infant mortality grew to be the highest in Europe.[1]
(Ceausescu was starving his people in order to pay the national debt)
The secret police (Securitate) had become so ubiquitous as to make Romania essentially a police state. Free speech was limited and opinions that did not favor the Communist Party were forbidden. The large numbers of Securitate informers made organized dissent nearly impossible. The regime deliberately played on this sense that everyone was being watched in order to make it easier to bend the people to the Party's will.[2] Even by Soviet bloc standards, the Securitate was exceptionally brutal.
(The people were scared to speak to each other for fear the person they were speaking to would turn them in to the secret police)
The austerity program started in 1981 and the widespread poverty it introduced made the Communist regime very unpopular. The austerity met little resistance among the Romanians and there were only a few strikes and labour disputes, of which notable were the Jiu Valley miners' strike of 1977 and the Brasov Rebellion of November 1987 at the truck manufacturer Steagul Rou. In March 1989, several leading activists of the Romanian Communist Party (PCR) protested in a letter that criticized the economic policies of Nicolae Ceausescu, but shortly thereafter Ceausescu achieved a significant political victory: Romania paid off its external debt of about US$11 billion several months before the time that even the Romanian dictator expected. However, in the months following the announcement the austerity and the shortage of goods remained the same as before.
Ceausescu was formally reelected secretary general of the Romanian Communist Party—the only political party of the Romanian Socialist Republic—on 24 November at the party's XIV Congress. On 11 November 1989, before the party congress, on Bucharest's Brezoianu Street and Kogălniceanu Boulevard, students from Cluj-Napoca and Bucharest demonstrated with placards “We want Reforms against Ceausescu government."
The students – including Paraschivescu Mihnea, Vulpe Gratian, and the economist Dan Caprariu- Schlachter from Cluj – were detained and investigated by the Securitate at the Rahova Penitentiary, on suspicion of propaganda against the socialist society. They were released on 22 December 1989 at 14.00.
There were other letters and other attempts to draw attention to the economic, cultural, and spiritual oppression of Romanians, but they served only to intensify the activity of the communist police and Securitate.
(interesting side note)
Another factor in the revolution is the Decresei policy, a draconian policy banning contraception and abortion. This policy, beginning in 1967, resulted in a baby boom, but also resulted in high rates of poverty and child mortality. Steven Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner in the Freakonomics argue that the unwanted children that result from bans on abortion and contraception are much less well-adjusted and much more prone to both crime and rebellion against authority. By 1989, these children had all reached adulthood, and this cohort was the one that started the revolution that overthrew Ceausescu.
(Some explanation is due here. The Romanian people are deeply religious and tend to internalize their religious beliefs they are mostly Romanian Orthodox and during Ceausescu rein religion was not against the law but if you wanted to be a part of the communist party you could not display any religious traits [be seen attending church]. The church was allowed only because the Romanian people wouldn’t have it any other way.
The events that follow marked the beginning of the end of communism in Romania.)
On 16 December a protest broke out in Timisoara in response to an attempt by the government to evict a dissident, Hungarian Reformed church pastor László Tykés. Tykés had in July that year made critical comments against the regime's Systematization policy[4] to the Hungarian television,[5] and complained that the Romanians do not even know their human rights. As Tykés described it later, the interview, which had been seen in the border areas and was then spread all over Romania, had “a shock effect upon the Romanians, Securitate as well, on the people of Romania. […] t had an unexpected effect upon the public atmosphere in Romania.”[6]
The government then alleged that he was inciting ethnic hatred. At the behest of the government, his bishop removed him from his post—thereby depriving him of the right to use the apartment to which he was entitled as a pastor—and assigned him to be a pastor in the countryside. For some time, his parishioners gathered around his home to protect him from harassment and eviction. Many passers-by, including religious Romanian students, spontaneously joined in.
As it became clear that the crowd would not disperse, the mayor, Petre Mose, made remarks suggesting that he had overturned the decision to evict Tykés. Meanwhile, the crowd had grown impatient, and when Mose; declined to confirm his statement against the planned eviction in writing, the crowd started to chant anticommunist slogans. Subsequently, police and Securitate forces showed up at the scene. By 7:30 pm, the protest had spread, and the original cause became largely irrelevant.
Some of the protesters attempted to burn down the building that housed the District Committee of the Romanian Communist Party (PCR). The Securitate responded with tear gas and water jets, while the police beat up rioters and arrested many of them. Around 9:00 pm, the rioters withdrew. They regrouped eventually around the Romanian Orthodox Cathedral and started a protest march Riots and protests resumed the following day, 17 December.
The rioters broke into the District Committee building and threw Party documents, propaganda brochures, Ceausescu's writings, and other symbols of communist power out the windows. Again, the protesters attempted to set the building on fire, but this time they were stopped by military units.
Since Romania did not have riot police (Ceausescu, who genuinely believed that the Romanian people loved him, never saw the need for them), the military were sent in to control the riots, since the situation was too large for the Securitate and conventional police to handle. The significance of the army presence in the streets was an ominous one: it meant that they had received their orders from the highest level of the command chain, presumably from Ceausescu himself. The army failed to establish order and chaos ensued with gunfire, fights, casualties, and burned cars. Transportor Amfibiu Blindat (TAB) armored personnel carriers and tanks were called in.
After 8:00 pm, from (Liberty Square) to the Opera there was wild shooting, including the area of Decebal bridge, Calea Lipovei (Lipovei Avenue), and Calea Girocului (Girocului Avenue). Tanks, trucks, and TABs blocked the accesses into the city while helicopters hovered overhead. After midnight the protests calmed down. Ion Coman, Ilie Matei, and stefan Gusf (Chief of the Romanian General Staff) inspected the city, in which some areas looked like the aftermath of a war: destruction, ash, and blood.
The morning of 18 December the centre was being guarded by soldiers and Securitate-agents in plainclothes. Mayor Mos; ordered a Party gathering to take place at the University, with the purpose of condemning the "vandalism" of the previous days. He also declared martial law, prohibiting people from going about in groups larger than two people.
Defying the curfew, a group of 30 young men headed for the Orthodox Cathedral, where they stopped and waved a Romanian flag from which they had removed the Romanian Communist coat of arms. Expecting that they would be fired upon, they started to sing ("Wake up, Romanian!"), an earlier national song that had been banned since 1947. They were, indeed, fired upon and some died, and others were seriously injured, while the lucky ones were able to escape.
On 19 December, Radu Balan and stefan Gush; visited the workers in the city’s factories, but failed to get them to resume work. On 20 December massive columns of workers were entering the city. About 100,000 protesters occupied (Opera Square – today Victory Square) and started to chant anti-government protests: "Noi suntem poporul!" ("We are the people!"), "Armata e cu noi!" ("The army is on our side!")," ("Have no fear, Ceausescu is falling!").
Meanwhile, Emil Bobu (Secretary to the Central Committee) and Prime Minister Constantin were sent by Elena Ceausescu (Nicolae Ceausescu being at that time in Iran), to solve the situation. They met with a delegation of the protesters and accepted freeing the majority of the arrested protesters. However, they refused to comply with the protesters’ main demand (resignation of Ceausescu), and the situation remained essentially unchanged.
The next day, trains loaded with workers originating from factories in Oltenia arrived in Timisoara. The regime was attempting to use them to repress the mass protests, but after a brief encounter they finally ended up joining the protests. One worker explained: "Yesterday, our factory boss and a Party official rounded us up in the yard, handed us wooden clubs and told us that Hungarians and ‘hooligans’ were devastating Timisoara and that it is our duty to go there and help crush the riots. But I realized that wasn't the truth."
On 18 December 1989 Ceausescu had departed for a visit to Iran, leaving the duty of crushing the Timisoara revolt to his subordinates and his wife. Upon his return on the evening of 20 December, the situation became even more tense, and he gave a televised speech from the TV studio inside the Central Committee Building (CC Building), in which he spoke about the events at Timisoara in terms of an "interference of foreign forces in Romania's internal affairs" and an "external aggression on Romania's sovereignty."
The country, which had no information of the Timisoara events from the national media, heard about the Timisoara revolt from Western radio stations like Voice of America and Radio Free Europe, and by word of mouth.
A mass meeting was staged for the next day, 21 December, which, according to the official media, was presented as a "spontaneous movement of support for Ceausescu," emulating the 1968 meeting in which Ceausescu had spoken against the invasion of Czechoslovakia by the Warsaw Pact forces.
On the morning of 21 December Ceausescu addressed an assembly of approximately 100,000 people, to condemn the uprising in Timisoara. Party officials took great pains to make it appear that Ceausescu was still immensely popular. Several busloads of workers, under threat of being fired, arrived in Bucharest's Palace Square, now Revolution Square) and given red flags, banners and large pictures of Ceausescu. They were augmented by several bystanders who were rounded up on Calea Victoriei.
In a speech laden with the usual Marxist-Leninist "wooden language", spurting out pro-socialist and Communist Party rhetoric, Ceausescu delivered a litany of the achievements of the "socialist revolution" and Romanian "multi-laterally developed socialist society". He blamed the Timisoara uprising on "fascist agitators."
However, Ceausescu was out of touch with his people and completely misread the crowd's mood. The people remained unresponsive, and only the front rows supported Ceausescu with cheers and applause. Eight minutes into the speech, some in the crowd actually began to jeer, boo, whistle and utter insults at him—a reaction considered unthinkable for most of Ceausescu's rule. Workers from a Bucharest power plant started chanting "Ti-mi-soa-ra! Ti-mi-soa-ra!"—a chant that was soon picked up by others in the crowd. In response, Ceausescu raised his right hand in hopes of silencing the crowd; his stunned expression remains one of the defining moments of the end of Communism in Eastern Europe. He then tried to placate the crowd by offering to raise workers' salaries by 100 lei per month (about 9 US dollars at the time, yet a 5–10% raise for a modest salary) and student scholarships from 100 to 110 lei while continuing to praise the achievements of the Socialist Revolution. However, a revolution was brewing right in front of his eyes.
(The Romanian people secretly hated Ceausecu and especially his wife who Romanians viewed as ruthless.)
As he was addressing the crowd from the balcony of the Central Committee building, sudden movement came from the outskirts of the massed assembly, as did the sound of (what various sources have reported as) fireworks, bombs, or guns, which together caused the assembly to break into chaos. Initially frightened, the crowds tried to disperse. Bullhorns then began to spread the news that the Securitate was firing on the crowd and that a "revolution" was unfolding. This persuaded people in the assembly to join in. The rally turned into a protest demonstration.
The entire speech was being broadcast live around Romania, and it is estimated that perhaps 76% of the nation was watching. Censors attempted to cut the live video feed, and replace it with Communist propaganda songs and video praising the Ceausescu regime, but parts of the riots had already been broadcast and most of the Romanian people realized that something unusual was in progress.
Ceausescu and his wife, as well as other officials and CPEx members, panicked, and Ceausescu's bodyguard hustled him back inside the building.
The jeers and whistles soon erupted into riot; the crowd took to the streets, placing the capital, like Timisoara, in turmoil. Members of the crowd spontaneously began shouting anti-Ceausescu slogans, which spread and became chants: "Jos dictatorul!" ("Down with the dictator"), "Moarte criminalului!" ("Death to the criminal"), "Noi suntem poporul, jos cu dictatorul!" ("We are the People, down with the dictator").
In one notable scene from the event, a young man waved a tricolour with the Communist coat of arms torn out of its centre, while perched on the statue of Mihai Viteazul on Boulevard Mihail Kogs lniceanu in the University Square. Many others began to emulate the young protester, and the waving and displaying of the Romanian flag with the Communist insignia cut out quickly became widespread.
As the hours passed, many more people took to the streets. Later, observers claimed that even at this point, had Ceausescu been willing to talk, he might have been able to salvage something. Instead, he decided on force.[2] Soon the protesters – unarmed and unorganized – were confronted by soldiers, tanks, TABs, USLA troops ( anti-terrorist special squads), and armed plain-clothes Securitate officers. The crowd was soon being shot at from various buildings, side streets, and tanks.
There were many casualties, including deaths, as victims were shot, clubbed to death, stabbed, and crushed by armored vehicles (one TAB drove into the crowd around the InterContinental Hotel, crushing people – a French journalist, Jean Louis Calderon, was killed; a street near University Square was later named after him, as well as a high school in Timisoara).
Firefighters hit the demonstrators with powerful water jets and the police continued to beat and arrest people. Protesters managed to build a defensible barricade in front of Dunsrea ("Danube") restaurant, which stood until after midnight, but was finally torn apart by government forces. Intense continuous shooting continued until after 3:00 am, by which time the survivors had fled the streets.
Records of the fighting that day include footage shot from helicopters – sent to raid the area and to record evidence for eventual reprisals – as well as by tourists in the high tower of the centrally located InterContinental Hotel, next to the National Theater and across the street from the University.
It is likely that in the early hours of 22 December the Ceausescus made their second mistake. Instead of fleeing the city under cover of night, they decided to wait until morning to leave. Ceausescu must have thought that his desperate attempts to crush the protests had succeeded, because he apparently called another meeting for the next morning. However, before 7:00 am, his wife Elena received the news that large columns of workers from many industrial platforms (large communist-era factories or groups of factories concentrated into industrial zones) were heading towards downtown Bucharest to join the protests. The police barricades that were meant to block access to (University Square) and Palace Square proved useless. By 9:30 am, University Square was jammed with protesters. Security forces (army, police and others) re-entered the area, only to join with the protesters.
By 10 am, as the radio broadcast was announcing the introduction of martial law and of a ban on groups larger than five persons, yet hundreds of thousands of people were gathering for the first time, spontaneously, in central Bucharest (the previous day's crowd had come together at Ceausescu's orders). Ceausescu attempted to address the crowd from the balcony of the Central Committee of the Communist Party building, but his attempt was met with a wave of disapproval and anger. Helicopters spread manifestos (which did not reach the crowd, due to unfavourable winds) instructing people not to fall victim to the latest "diversion attempts," but to go home instead and enjoy the Christmas feast. This order, which drew unfavorable comparisons to Marie Antoinette's haughty (but apocryphal) "Let them eat cake", further infuriated the people who did read the manifestos; many people at that time had trouble procuring such basic foodstuffs as cooking oil
On the morning of 22 December sometime around 9:30 am, Vasile Milea, Ceausescu's minister of defense, died under suspicious circumstances. A communiqué by Ceausescu stated that Milea had been sacked for treason, and that he had committed suicide after his treason was revealed. The most widespread opinion at the time was that Milea hesitated to follow Ceausescu's orders to fire on the demonstrators, even though tanks had been dispatched to downtown Bucharest that morning. Milea was already in severe disfavour with Ceausescu for initially sending soldiers to Timisoara without live ammunition. The rank-and-file soldiers believed that Milea had actually been murdered, and went over virtually en masse to the revolution. The senior commanders wrote off Ceausescu as a lost cause and made no effort to keep their men loyal to the regime. For all intents and purposes, this ended any chance of Ceausescu staying in power.
Accounts differ about how Milea died. Milea's family and several junior officers believed he had been shot in his own office by the Securitate, while another group of officers believed he had committed suicide.[2] In 2005 an investigation concluded that the minister killed himself by shooting at his heart, but the bullet missed the heart, hit a nearby artery, and led to his death shortly afterward.
Upon learning of Milea's death, Ceausescu appointed Victor Stunculescu as minister of defense. He accepted after a brief hesitation. Stunculescu, however, ordered the troops back to their quarters without Ceausescu's knowledge, and moreover persuaded Ceausescu to leave by helicopter, thus making the dictator a fugitive. At that same moment, angry protesters began storming the Communist Party headquarters; Stunculescu and the soldiers under his command did not oppose them.
By refusing to carry out Ceausescu's orders (he was still technically commander-in-chief of the army), Stenculescu played a central role in the overthrow of the dictatorship. "I had the prospect of two execution squads: Ceausescu's and the revolutionary one!" confessed Stanculescu later. In the afternoon, Stenculescu "chose" Ion Iliescu's political group from among others that were striving for power in the aftermath of the recent events.
However, the seizure of power by the new political structure National Salvation Front (FSN), which "emanated" from the second tier of the Communist Party leadership with help of the plotting generals, was not yet complete. Forces considered to be loyal to the old regime (spontaneously nicknamed "terrorists") opened fire on the crowd and attacked vital points of socio-political life: the television, radio, and telephone buildings, as well as Casa Scânteii (the centre of the nation's print media, which serves a similar role today under the name Casa Presei Libere, "House of the Free Press") and the post office in the district of Drumul Taberei; Palace Square (site of the Central Committee building, but also of the Central University Library, the national art museum in the former Royal Palace, and the Ateneul Român (Romanian Athaeneum),
Bucharest's leading concert hall); the university and the adjoining University Square (one of the city's main intersections); Otopeni and Boneasa airports; hospitals, and the Ministry of Defence.
Its worth noting that just over 1,000 people died for Romania's freedom. Less then died in our revolutionary war by miles.
Well America can you tell me what is the single thing that makes us free and keeps us free………….A hint its not guns.
There are many other lessons to be taken from this as well, but figure out the main question I have posed if you can????
BTTB
BTTB
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Come on does anybody care to venture so much as a guess, think about this then... Here we are Americans and you can't define what truly makes you FREE... What is the bed rock of freedom? Come on people surely you should be able to answer this question with ease.... Once I point it out to you it will be obvious, why is it you can't define it. It's no wonder I have the opinion that most of you are out of touch.......  Sadly you are.. I'm certain that our founding fathers would be very disappointed...................... BTTB
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Without reading thru all of that, I'll say: We the People. There is power in numbers and I would guess if we could all get together, there is nothing that we could not do.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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Legend
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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
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Quote:
Without reading thru all of that, I'll say: We the People. There is power in numbers and I would guess if we could all get together, there is nothing that we could not do.
You would be wrong but I appreciate the try. You really should read what I put together I know its long but when I give you the answer it will be very clear to you.
It really is important that all Americans understand this right and without it all other rights are impossible. It's in this story and it is obvios as well.....You just have to think, it will come to you I promise. 
BTTB
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You would be wrong as well.
Remember we are talking the bedrock of freedom. Without it there is no freedom, in fact without it we are slaves.
BTTB
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I see, you're trying to say the media keeps us free. You obviously have not been very observant of the current state of our media.
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Since you are so sure that you know the absolute answer, why dont you enlighten us peons?
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Quote:
Since you are so sure that you know the absolute answer, why dont you enlighten us peons?
Your an American the same as me this should come easy to you......
Don't get mad at me and all huffy because I understand it and you don't..
Again your an American this should be easy....
It would be obvious to you if you read what I wrote and you can connect DOTS..
Before anyone else gets all huffy, this is not me looking down from up above its me making a point that Americans in general can't define the one thing that makes all other freedoms possible....
We are slaves without it. Come on guys this truly should be easy what single freedom do we have that make a free society possible. Every other freedom we enjoy comes from this one basic freedom, and no government can take it once people have it.
Think Think Think read that article I posted its in there and its obvious...
BTTB
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Information. Rather from the media or spread by mouth. The information people needed to take action was present, when before it was not. Just knowing that they were not alone in their thoughts and that others were willing to risk their lives for change sparked the rebellion.
I think this is what you are getting at.
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 Man your getting close you almost said it, good for you just one more DOT left to connect...... BTTB A Hint it's a 2 word ANSWER
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You boys need some more clues don't ya? Quote:
The secret police (Securitate) had become so ubiquitous as to make Romania essentially a police state. Free speech was limited and opinions that did not favor the Communist Party were forbidden. The large numbers of Securitate informers made organized dissent nearly impossible. The regime deliberately played on this sense that everyone was being watched in order to make it easier to bend the people to the Party's will.[2] Even by Soviet bloc standards, the Securitate was exceptionally brutal.
There were other letters and other attempts to draw attention to the economic, cultural, and spiritual oppression of Romanians, but they served only to intensify the activity of the communist police and Securitate.
On 16 December a protest broke out in Timisoara in response to an attempt by the government to evict a dissident, Hungarian Reformed church pastor László Tykés. Tykés had in July that year made critical comments against the regime's Systematization policy[4] to the Hungarian television,[5] and complained that the Romanians do not even know their human rights. As Tykés described it later, the interview, which had been seen in the border areas and was then spread all over Romania, had “a shock effect upon the Romanians, Securitate as well, on the people of Romania. […] t had an unexpected effect upon the public atmosphere in Romania.”[6]
The country, which had no information of the Timisoara events from the national media, heard about the Timisoara revolt from Western radio stations like Voice of America and Radio Free Europe, and by word of mouth.
It's all in there now come on figure it out 2 worlds? You can do it think think think
What is bed rock of freedom?
BTTB
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If the answer is close to information, and is two words:
My guess would be free speech. It comes up six times on this page.
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If I'm going down for an assault on my freedom, I'm going down fighting, not waving pamphlets and yelling slogans. I'm no martyr.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Free Speech?
We have a winner folks...
Free speech set off the revolutions in all of the Eastern block countries once they realized they ALL HATED the same thing it was days from dictator to freedom for Romania, and they had NO GUNS. In fact we could easily expand the discussion to try to figure out what likely would have happened had there been guns...
But look at all of North Africa they said the overthrow of the governments there was due to social media (facebook and twitter). What are people doing on facebook and twitter?
Look at Iran prime example here; they have had several uprisings over the course of the past few years in each instance they shut down the internet. They don't go door to door taking weapons they shut down the internet, you cannot be a slave unless you lose free speech its bedrock to freedom, and it can't be taken.
In the case of Romania a priest said it how it was and the Romanian people hated I mean hated Ceausescu, but they had secret police everywhere they trusted no one so they kept their mouths shut once they opened up their was no stopping them, not even bullets could stop them. In fact the military sided with them. Oh there were shootings but just over a 1,000 people died and they were free, and remain so..
This is the foundation of freedom, you can change laws and governments and as long as you have freedom of speech you can change anything.
Look at China and look at the world around them how much longer do you think it will be before they demand a say in their government, and when they do the government will be powerless to stop them, but it will take someone standing up and expressing what they all believe (free speech), and then its over.
Look at North Korea they don't have a clue what is going on outside their country they CANNOT speak their minds their slaves because they have no way to communicate with each other they have no power because they lack free speech.
But good for you cold you nailed it and hopefully now you all know how obvious it is go back and read the piece I put up and look at the world today and begin the process of connecting the DOTS and soon you'll begin to realize free speech means more to us then any other freedom and it makes all the other freedoms we enjoy possible...
IT IS BEDROCK LIKE I SAID.. Hopefully most of you understand it better, and as Americans its a question you should easily be able to answer....
Like I said before THINK, THINK, THINK!!!
It’s actually amazing how few truly understand the power of free speech, especially Americans:
BTTB
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Free speechwas limited and opinions that did not favor the Communist Party were forbidden. large numbers of Securitate informers made organized dissent nearly impossible. The regime deliberately played on this sense that everyone was being watched in order to make it easier to bendthe people to the Party's will....
Fear
Lack of Free Speech kept them slaves....................That is the true power of freedom.........
BTTB
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Free speechwas limited and opinions that did not favor the Communist Party were forbidden. large numbers of Securitate informers made organized dissent nearly impossible. The regime deliberately played on this sense that everyone was being watched in order to make it easier to bendthe people to the Party's will....
Fear
Lack of Free Speech kept them slaves....................That is the true power of freedom.........
BTTB
And let me guess, you think you'll be able to keep the First Amendment without the 2nd? I just spent 3 days arguing with a person that doesn't have a clue. I have to stop doing that.
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A couple questions for you, as you seem to have the answers.
1. Why did these countries fall into totalitarianism?
2. How did it become possible for those Eastern Block countries to start getting their rights back.
3. How long did it take?
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Legend
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That's your answer? Free speech is your answer?  Free speech? Really? You do know that "free speech" is being monitored, right? And no, I'm not talking about yelling "fire" in a movie theater. Free speech is nothing but a small part of freedom. Perhaps you should study history. 
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That's your answer? Free speech is your answer?
Free speech? Really?
You do know that "free speech" is being monitored, right? And no, I'm not talking about yelling "fire" in a movie theater.
Free speech is nothing but a small part of freedom. Perhaps you should study history.
Now I know why I try to keep from getting sucked into these ridiculous debates. Free speech is "the answer". Yay. I am now enlightened and can go on with my life.
#gmstrong
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I'm not Brown but I'll bite.
1. Why did these countries fall into totalitarianism?
Same reason a lot of countries do. There was a vast divide between the social classes. The rich were spoiled, corrupt, and lacked any sort of empathy for the lower classes.
2. How did it become possible for those Eastern Block countries to start getting their rights back.
Perestroika and Glasnost. Both were instrumental in loosening markets, knowledge was allowed to be brought in, and freedom of speech began to exist in the USSR.
3. How long did it take?
It took around a decade or so? People began wanting more freedom which became the catalyst for the dissolution of the USSR.
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I would argue freedom of information is more important than freedom of speech. You can be free to say whatever you want but if all you know is propaganda (think North Korea) then what good does it do you? If you have freedom of information, you are free to explore different philosophies/views and can make their decisions based on that.
Also, this entire thread is bizarre. I find it ridiculous that a person thinks there's a "right answer" for what an individual believes is their most important freedom.
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The average young Iranian probably has more information and education available to them than the average Egyptian, Syrian, or Lybian. That has not made them more successful in overthrowing their government.
The reason that many countries have thrown off oppressive governments is because the US and other free countries stood with those revolutionaries, standing up for them, and warning governments not to abuse their people. That's what happened in Egypt, and without the US warning Egypt not to take military action against the protesters, it could have been a completely different story.
As far as our own government, I am of the opinion that the Constitution, and specifically the Bill of Rights, was constructed in a way that the protections of rights overlap one another, and protect one another.
People have the right to free speech, to peacefully assemble, and petition for redress of grievances, to be armed, to be secure in their own home, to not be subject to unreasonable search and seizure, the right to trial by jury, and so on. All of these rights are intertwined to protect one another.
Freedom of speech is vitally important, however, without the other rights and protections, it could easily be taken away. Implying that freedom of speech alone is the key to anything is somewhat naive IMHO.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Absolutely if all of Eastern Europe and all of North Africa fell because people were able to express themselves YES I absolutely do and history says its so.......
All freedoms come about from 1 place free speech. You need to think about that, the sharing of ideas and swaying people to your thought process brings about action and it toppled Eastern Europe and North Africa.
Do you think guns make you free? Keep you free ?
Hell our revolution started with free speech without free speech there is no USA... It's ground zero to activism without it nothing happens...
For all the talk about history on this board and in many places in this country you all don't understand the bedrock concept that change is born from free speech without it we live like the North Koreans......
I think some of you really need to think of what comes from and branches out from free speech............
I know it puts a huge dent in the idea that guns make you free, but history says guns are a minor player compared to free speech....
Just suppose for a moment what would happen if all of the sudden the people of North Korea could speak their minds and express themselves to each other without the fear of reprisal? Do you honestly think they would choose the world they live in ?
History tells us what would happen; we don't even have to guess.
FREE SPEECH is the game changer in every society. If you have it your free, if you don’t you’re a slave. You find 1 oppressive regime in the history of the world and the one constant is controlling freedom of speech as its center piece. Controlling a people is only achievable thru suppression of free speech. That’s what you should have taken from the Romanian revolution piece, but its played out so many times especially over the past 30 years at some point don’t you ask yourself why? Or better YET how?
When you read a piece like this don’t you think to yourself why did this happen? what made it happen? and why did it get to the point where a people were willing to die to bring about change? Or do you read the piece and take it at face value? Don't you consider and question why and how?
Its not really even debatable IMO, history proves it in spades. Many people believe freedom is found at the end of a gun but freedom is at the tip of your tongue.
But there are so many things that the fog lifts away from if you understand that simple concept. Even in Afghanistan you don’t hear about us actually winning the war at the point of a gun you hear general’s tell you that the only way they can win is by gaining the confidence; the hearts and minds of the Afghan people.
BTTB
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Hell our revolution started with free speech without free speech there is no USA
That may be true, but the British didn't surrender because we talked them to death!
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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You're bordering on American exceptionalism but I do mostly agree. A lot of people want to paint Reagan as the hero of the fall of the USSR but I don't agree with that
China would be a much different place if their citizens had free access to all types of media.
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In order to remain free, you need it all. Freedom of information, freedom of speech, and most importantly.... the means and determination to defend it from those that wish to take it away. That's why the second ammendment was written.
This thread is a joke.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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What is it that makes and keeps people Free
Death...Yes death keeps us free from all ....
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As far as our own government, I am of the opinion that the Constitution, and specifically the Bill of Rights, was constructed in a way that the protections of rights overlap one another, and protect one another.
Absolutely but there beginnings are grounded in free speech. If you can't freely express yourself you can't formulate laws and bring about change. I said at the beginning it is the bedrock of freedom, it doesn't absolutely define it, it makes every other concept and law possible in a free society...
It makes change possible it sways public opinion and causes society to act....
In other words its not the end of the road but the beginning of the road, but all roads start with free speech in a free society.
Its not complicated in fact its down right simple, but it is the bedrock of free people.
BTTB
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You can be free to say whatever you want but if all you know is propaganda (think North Korea) then what good does it do you?
I don't get why we always associate propaganda with communist or totalitarian states as if those are the only environments where information ends up constricted. In the US, we've seen a steady downhill decline (particularly over the past 40 years) take place in large part because of a mislead electoral public making decisions off of a very limited criteria to make said choices off of.
I'm not sure who said it, but "propaganda is to democracy as the bludgeon is to the dictatorship". If you can't physically coerce a people into desired behavior, you'll have to manipulate them with the information presented. It's just done much more craftily and covert in this country.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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China would also be a different place if they had had a more free market based economy for the past 100 years ...... and if their citizens had all of the freedoms we enjoy in this country.
There are so many differences between the US and China that it's really difficult to say that one would have made the biggest difference. What if ordinary citizens had legal rights similar to ours in Communist China? What if they had the right to bear arms? What if they had the right of religious freedom? The Chinese people had none of these rights under the Communists. Much as in the Soviet Union, people could be disappeared for any reason at all.
As far as Reagan, he did 2 very important things. He rebuilt the military, which drove the Soviets into bankruptcy, and then stood on the border of East and West, encouraging the people of the East to come over the wall. That speech at the wall was historic, and it is no coincidence that the Berlin wall came down about 2 years after his famous speech.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Also, this entire thread is bizarre. I find it ridiculous that a person thinks there's a "right answer" for what an individual believes is their most important freedom.
Quoted for truth. I am totally perplexed that someone can think there is a "right answer" to this.
#gmstrong
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A couple questions for you, as you seem to have the answers.
1. Why did these countries fall into totalitarianism?
2. How did it become possible for those Eastern Block countries to start getting their rights back.
3. How long did it take?
If your asking a serious question I would be happy to tell you what I know about it.
If you have some other idea's I would be happy to talk with you about that as well...
I have a better question for you are you capable of not being angry? Because if your going to be irrational I would rather not.........
And I donØu mean that in a mean way either. It's your tone I guess ???
BTTB
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And I don't mean that in a mean way either. It's your tone I guess ???
The only tone you can get from letters.. is the tone of your own comprehension of which it is written...
No wonder why freedom of speech causes such a problem....or is it the interpretation of it ?
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Quote:
Also, this entire thread is bizarre. I find it ridiculous that a person thinks there's a "right answer" for what an individual believes is their most important freedom.
Quoted for truth. I am totally perplexed that someone can think there is a "right answer" to this.
Push back away from the monitor take deep breaths and think.
Thats all I ever set out to do was to get you to think, not like me but however you choose. But there are certain things you should understand before you speak. If you'll open up your mind a bit you may just learn something. And I in turn may learn something from you, and that will make us both better poeple...
I see people starting to open up and talk about other things like China, and North Korea, eventually will work our way home in fact some folks are talking about the media, and how it relates to free speech and our own society.
Their execising their free right to speech and it is how we learn from one another. The important thing you need to remember the conversation is an exchange of ideas, and sorry to say there never going to be exactly like I would like them to be nor are they going to be as you wish them to be.
We each in a civil rational exchange of ideas take what we wish from the conversation. I realize you think its crazy, but you know you have another right and that is don't take part.
I ask one thing if you want to take part do so respectfully and in a tone that is in keeping with rational debate...
In other words the conversation doesn't have to be confrontational it can be informative and we could all stand (hand rasied) to be less ignorant.
Part of the debate process is learning but based on your tone, I don't think your quite ready for that....
I know I don't have all the answers thats why I love debate so I can learn I think you need to embrass that, but do as you choose.
Peace to you
BTTB
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Thats all I ever set out to do was to get you to think, not like me but however you choose. But there are certain things you should understand before you speak. If you'll open up your mind a bit you may just learn something.
You should jump off of your high horse for a minute and realize just how arrogant that sounds.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
And I don't mean that in a mean way either. It's your tone I guess ???
The only tone you can get from letters.. is the tone of your own comprehension of which it is written...
No wonder why freedom of speech causes such a problem....or is it the interpretation of it ?
In this thread I wanted to talk about 4 things actually.
#1 What is the foundation of freedom. Where does it begin?
#2 I wanted to talk about countries that didn't have freedom and now do and how they gained their freedom.
#3 How some of the ideas we have about how freedom of speech relates to us in the 21st century.
#4 How it has changed? Internet facebook global instant messaging.
I thought I would just sort of let it take its own course but it will work its way thru all of these ideas and hopefully more. And I hope we can learn something thru the exchange of ideas that surround free speech..
Feel free to add something, I enjoy debate..........
BTTB
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Thats all I ever set out to do was to get you to think, not like me but however you choose. But there are certain things you should understand before you speak. If you'll open up your mind a bit you may just learn something. And I in turn may learn something from you, and that will make us both better poeple...
Perhaps I could have picked better words and of course you took my statement out of context thru the use of cut and paste.......
BTTB
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I'm not Brown but I'll bite.
1. Why did these countries fall into totalitarianism?
Same reason a lot of countries do. There was a vast divide between the social classes. The rich were spoiled, corrupt, and lacked any sort of empathy for the lower classes.
2. How did it become possible for those Eastern Block countries to start getting their rights back.
Perestroika and Glasnost. Both were instrumental in loosening markets, knowledge was allowed to be brought in, and freedom of speech began to exist in the USSR.
3. How long did it take?
It took around a decade or so? People began wanting more freedom which became the catalyst for the dissolution of the USSR.
Wow. You totally missed on this. The problem is your disreguard for history.
1. These countries falling apart and into totalitarianism was due to the misspent funds from the political elite. They build the lower classes into a rage due to class envy. This is happening right now, and it shouldn't in this country. This is the most class moble society that has ever existed. Strife then intentionally builds between different classes until violence happens, and then the governments (current or new) propose 'common sense solutions' all run by the government. Freedoms are given away for peace, security, or prosperity.
2. No. Perestroika and Glasnost were a by product of the US capitalism assault on the Soviets and other Eastern Block countries. We let them know how good we have it here, and that they could have it too. As their governments collapsed, they had no choice but to finally give into the peoples' will, as the governments political elite had finally finished spending other people's money. As they destroyed their people's will to produce and innovate through draconian government regulation, the take for the governments continue to get smaller. As the people get to the, 'we pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us' stage, that's when the government financially collaspes. This leaves the illegal, and formerly black market interests to quickly recover by becoming legal captialism, and hence the country recovers as a capitalist society. Ours has been the longest lived capitalist government in recent history. I'd prefer our government to be reformed before we get to the capitalist collapse stage.
3 Incorrect again. Poland, for example, lost their rights to the Soviets at the end of WWII. I calculate at to about 40 years before they were able to restore the limited rights they used to have. The Soviet Union had people under totalitarian control for 80 years. Even Russian papers have urged the US populace to not give up their guns, as they've seen the result of that governmental policy.
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