|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445 |
Quote:
youre delusional...
Delusional???...I can think of better words I can't use for this comment...
Quote:
If the Browns don't trade the farm for RGIII,
Go Browns!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Quote:
Quote:
a2d and FL, the point was that someone was trying to use the Giants as a reason to keep our picks. It seemed like the worst possible choice as an example, as they gave up two firsts, a third, and a fifth for the guy that led them to two 4th-quarter comeback Super Bowl wins and really magnificant playoff performances.
I am fully aware of what the point was and my post was to counter that argument. If you want RG3, your chances that he's the guy is legit if you get him at #4 rather than taking him at #2 and giving up a bunch of high draft picks for him.
Yes! I agree with this, too!
Maybe I should start a "Mr. Manning goes to Washington" billboard campaign. Then after his career is over he can run for Senate.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,431
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,431 |
Quote:
youre delusional...
At the very least. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
I never said I wanted it done now ... just that the Rams want it done so they can guarantee the picks for the reasons you already mentioned.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,212
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,212 |
j/c
we would be morons to do a trade now.
Only bad things can happen.
The #2 pick value is at an all time high. Well, unless for some reason the Colts fall in love with RGIII and sign him. Only then would the number two have more value.
Injuries are a huge reason i wouldn't touch a trade until draft time. Injuries could happen to either Luck or RGIII. That would leave a wasted trade an a bust of a number two pick.
Once these free agent Qb's start signing, the dominos will fall and things should become alot clearer. Sure, the skins might want to know what to do in freeagency, but Snyder isn't going to get his way on this one. The value for #2 will drop if the skins sign a marquee freeagent QB.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
Once again. I never said I WANTED to do the trade now. But for the reasons you listed the Rams WILLLLL want to do it now.
And if this is the point when Griffin's value is at the highest, then why would the Rams hold onto it any longer?
So... yeah?
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
And if this is the point when Griffin's value is at the highest, then why would the Rams hold onto it any longer?
because the team that has the assets they want refuse to deal until the draft?
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
lol I feel like I'm being misunderstood. Which means it's my bad.
We assume that neither Cleveland nor Washington (nor anyone else) WANTS to make the trade now.
We assume that St. Louis does because it's when his value is highest.
We then know that if there is only one suitor ... that suitor has power.
Example: St. Louis says "we want the deal now" Cleveland/Washington says "Shove it"
The power is in the hands of the buyer because the seller wants to unload.
But in this case we have the power in the hands of the seller because the buyers are bidding against each other.
If St. Louis says "we will make a deal by Friday" then it forces panic in a sense.
Cleveland knows they either make that deal OR they will essentially HAVE to get a guy like Flynn unless they want another year of McCoy. Maybe it makes them bid a little more.
Washington knows they either have to get Griffin OR they will get to go after Manning / Flynn - and either spend all of that money ... again ... on free agents or they will get to put Sexy-Rexy behind center all year.
Even if the buyers control what they will give up ... the seller controls the timeline. If St. Louis says "we are trading him by Friday so get your best bid in" then Cleveland can't say "wait until March" because St. Louis just turns to Washington and essentially hands off Griffin.
Obviously there is a chance that both Cleveland and Washington tell them to wait ... but there is also the prisoner's dilemma in that each team will wind up working against each other.
Cleveland and washington talk and both say "we won't deal with St. Louis until March." Well how good is that deal? If one believes it then the other turns around and gets Griffin uncontested.
And also ... who isn't to say that Miami doesn't come in and say "wow ... you want to unload Griffin and Cle/Was won't take him? We got this...how much you want?"
So yes the buyer always has power to accept / reject a deal. But if there a lot of bidders and not a lot of supply ... the Rams have absolutely no reason to delay dealing the pick.
For the same reasons you mentioned (Free agency - Griffin tearing an ACL at his pro-day - a report coming out that Griffin cheated on his SAT's and had saturday detention) ...any little thing only hurts his value at this point. St. Louis wants to sell high ... and if we truly want this guy we MIGHT have to be willing to buy him now or let him go to another team.
That's my point.
Last edited by PStu24; 02/29/12 01:04 PM.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
fair enough. misunderstood was part on me too. i have it in my mind that Washington also wants to make a deal now (so they know what to do in FA), while Cleveland doesn't.
that's just my impression though and it biased how I read your post. sorry.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
Quote:
fair enough. misunderstood was part on me too. i have it in my mind that Washington also wants to make a deal now (so they know what to do in FA), while Cleveland doesn't.
that's just my impression though and it biased how I read your post. sorry.
This is my take as well. Maybe we want to wait because the one we want is to be found in FA and our 2nd choice is in the draft?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445 |
I didn't get that...Say that again... 
Go Browns!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
Nah no worries lol ...
I'm probably even thinking into to far. But I also keep thinking whatever we think would be the "best case scenario" is for us ... there are about 31 other clubs (or at least a few) who would rather it go THEIR way than ours.
I would LOVE for St. Louis to still have the pick when free agency gets here.
Either A. We grab Flynn - then who cares.
or B. Washington takes Flynn ... and we basically say "here's a 3rd rounder - give us the number two and still get the guy you want or deal with Miami and drop to number 9"
or C. Washington signs Flynn, Miami signs Peyton and St. Louis says "we either ask cleveland for a fourth and take who we want ... trade all the way down to #12 with Seattle ... or we take the guy we want now and watch Griffin slide to #4 while Cleveland doesn't give up a thing."
So while that would be the best option for us ... it's the worst for St. Louis and it's the reason I think that they will try to unload it now before the value drops.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,104
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,104 |
I don't see Flynn going to Washington, if anything its Miami, Cleveland or Seattle. Manning is a Washington possibility but if hes a FA I doubt he chooses to go there in favor of a team like the Seahawks who could contend right away.
If Cleveland wants #2 its gonna cost us our 1st rounders, I have little doubt about that.
The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
Curious ... why do you believe those things?
If anything - wouldn't Flynn be the better choice for Washington?
He will cost less. He has a lot longer time to be there and not just a 2 to 3 year band aid. He doesn't have the star power or the ego to compete with Shanahan. If Peyton goes there he is a short term stop gap who might only be successful if HE calls the plays and they run HIS offense.
Flynn is the better deal long term.
I'm also not sure why you think Seattle has a better shot of contending right away. Yes they might have a better shot of winning their division but that disapeared the minute San Fran just went to the NFC title game. Plus, the Cardinals are right in the division hunt if they can get Kolb on solid footing (though that is no guarantee). And if St. Louis gets Bradford back and healthy ... that division could be real tough real soon.
Yes in Washington you would need to play Dallas Philly and the Giants 2x per year each ... but Dallas has been soft the past few years and the Eagles are a feast or famine team the last two years. It might be a better place to go if you are a young guy.
Not sure I am right- I just don't see any reasoning in what you say.
I also don't buy into the fact that we WILL have to give up our 2 first rounders. I wouldn't be surprised if we did ... but I also think it could be a lot less.
For weeks everyone said Matt Cassel would command a TON in free agency. He (paired with Vrabel) netted a second. And he was coming off of an 11 win season.
In the end ... I would be a little surprised .. but not by much ... if St. Louis says "we want your #4 and a pair of seconds) and we take that. Because in order for Washington to beat it they would probably need their 1st, 2nd (which doesn't beat our first and second) plus another pick to make up for the fact that St. Louis might lose Blackmon / Kalil to go to 6, so maybe another 3rd. Then also another pick next year to match our 2nd.
I think St. Louis takes our #4, #37 and 2nd rounder in 2013 before they take Washington's 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 1st/2nd next year...
Just me though.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
"Good", I say the skins and rams need to Get 'er Done, so we can restore some sanity among Browns fans...
Ya really think thats gonna happen mac.... 
Wait till the other half finds out RG3 was never a choice, just a smoke screen...Wow are we gonna hear the screaming now.... 
Clay...I doubt the insanity suddenly goes away...
If RGIII becomes Redskin, our cheerleaders will go back to blaming everything that has happened to the Browns since 1999, on Colt McCoy.
If the Browns don't trade the farm for RGIII, the cheerleaders will find a way to blame McCoy for that too.
Your hyperbole can't hide the fact that while fan discontent can somewhat be dismissed, the lack of non-denials by the organization itself cannot be.
I'm trying to decide if you're being pro-Mccoy, or if you're being anti-fan. Regardless of your stance here, youve been adamant that whomever the organization puts their faith in you're going to support. Since its obvious to anyone not blinded by their own beliefs that the Browns are ready to upgrade the position, I think its time to admit that the majority opinion that its time for a different qb has been justified.
There are scenarios where we end up with mccoy as the guy who lines up under center to start the season, but that won't mean he's the guy the organization believes in.
So...Mac...riding the fence is easy. Time to make a tougher statement. Do you believe in Mccoy or not? It's a simple question with a simple answer. It's either yes, or no. "maybe" isn't an answer. You either believe in him or you don't. If you don't, who would you want?
It's time to stop taking a shot at the fans and time to be one...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Quote:
Your hyperbole can't hide the fact that while fan discontent can somewhat be dismissed, the lack of non-denials by the organization itself cannot be.
I'm still trying to figure out how many negatives are in there 
In dumbspeak, that sounds to me like
"Fans are going to complain when the team doesn't win, so their opinion can't really be used to judge whether or not the team will try to improve the QB.
However, what is more important {itself cannot be} is the fact that the owner/GM/coach {by the organization} has not issued {the lack of} statements which do not refute {non-denials} the current tradewinds."
Am I reading that right? 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,520
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,520 |
I love sprited debates..  So while some of the fans are on the fence and say what we did/will do/have done is always wrong. And some are saying we are CRAZY to give away picks to move up and dump Colt so soon with no team around him. And some say we should do what ever it takes to try and get what most people think is an upgrade at the QB position thru the draft or FA. So Toad.... I'm not sure we've heard your position, your "best case" senerio for who plays QB this year. And no.. no far fetched dreams or schemes allowed, keep it realistic..
You want to trade up if necessary for RGIII if the asking price is reasonable ?
You want Flynn if it doesn't break the bank ?
You want to stay with Colt and "build around" him ?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
Your hyperbole can't hide the fact that while fan discontent can somewhat be dismissed, the lack of non-denials by the organization itself cannot be.
I'm still trying to figure out how many negatives are in there
In dumbspeak, that sounds to me like
"Fans are going to complain when the team doesn't win, so their opinion can't really be used to judge whether or not the team will try to improve the QB.
However, what is more important {itself cannot be} is the fact that the owner/GM/coach {by the organization} has not issued {the lack of} statements which do not refute {non-denials} the current tradewinds."
Am I reading that right?
What, you expect me to be able to decipher the nonsense I fired off there? What's wrong with you? 
Short version:
Fans complain about a player = some legitimacy but taken with a grain of salt.
Organization refuses to fully back a current player by flat-out denying interest in a possible draftee = a vote of no confidence for the incumbent starter.
The Browns have had ample opportunity to deny they are interested in anyone other than McCoy at the QB position. That's a smidgeon short of saying they no longer believe he's capable of being the man. Would they love to catch lightening in a bottle the way the Niners did with Smith in spite of the fact they spent a 2nd rounder on a guy? Absolutely, but they aren't banking on it. Besides, they'd be idiotic if they alienated McCoy because there's a possibility they'll get left out in the cold with Griffin, Tannehill, or Flynn.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
I think it could also be that they don't know. Maybe they like McCoy but don't love him. However ... if the opportunity presents itself they could conceivably go for a different QB ... but if worst comes to worst they could always give him one more year. Or .. (and this is just because it's Silly Season) .. I think if they are hush hush on it then it shows more questions. If we look like we are committed to Colt, Washington doesn't NEED to trade up with St. Louis. St. Louis takes 1/3 of Claiborne / Kalil / Blackmon and Minnesota gets the 2/3. We are "stuck" with only one of those three guys. But maybe if we aren't interested in Griffin we essentially force a team to trade up for him by being quiet and acting like we are in the bidding. That would allow one more prospect to drop to us. Just speculating like it's my job! 
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Quote:
Organization refuses to fully back a current player by flat-out denying interest in a possible draftee = a vote of no confidence for the incumbent starter.
The Browns have had ample opportunity to deny they are interested in anyone other than McCoy at the QB position. That's a smidgeon short of saying they no longer believe he's capable of being the man. Would they love to catch lightening in a bottle the way the Niners did with Smith in spite of the fact they spent a 2nd rounder on a guy? Absolutely, but they aren't banking on it. Besides, they'd be idiotic if they alienated McCoy because there's a possibility they'll get left out in the cold with Griffin, Tannehill, or Flynn.
lol, ok that's what I thought you would have meant. For some reason my brain wants to word that as "the lack of denials cannot be dismissed" or "the non-denials cannot be dismissed."
Either way, thanks for translating.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
I love sprited debates.. So while some of the fans are on the fence and say what we did/will do/have done is always wrong. And some are saying we are CRAZY to give away picks to move up and dump Colt so soon with no team around him. And some say we should do what ever it takes to try and get what most people think is an upgrade at the QB position thru the draft or FA.
So Toad.... I'm not sure we've heard your position, your "best case" senerio for who plays QB this year. And no.. no far fetched dreams or schemes allowed, keep it realistic..
You want to trade up if necessary for RGIII if the asking price is reasonable ?
You want Flynn if it doesn't break the bank ?
You want to stay with Colt and "build around" him ?
You made a key statement that allows me to say without a doubt what my "best case" scenario is:
Quote:
You want to trade up if necessary for RGIII if the asking price is reasonable ?
If the asking price is reasonable, Griffin is my best case scenario.
Flynn brings a ton of risk for a guy that hasn't actually proven anything, and building "around McCoy" is doing nothing more than building a team while leaving the QB position for later. Sure, there's an outside chance McCoy can become a legit starter, but he's proven less than guys like Campbell and Orton, and they are changing teams every two or three years now. While in the past I've said I can make a case for taking a middle-of-the-road guy and using the picks to build the team, we're in a very VERY rare position where we can get an elite-level prospect at the QB position, and has been proven over and over in recent years, if you don't have an elite NFL QB, you don't have a shot at the Super Bowl.
I can walk the fence many ways here, as we stand to get markedly better no matter which direction we go, but we're in a fortuitous position to grab a talent like few teams have ever seen. That's tough to pass up.
Keep in mind that I didn't believe Griffin would come in as large as he did. That has swayed me more to him and away from Richardson.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Just speculating like it's my job!
That is your job as a fan.
And Steve, if you thought that's what I thought when I said what I thought, that makes you just ask cracked as I am. Congrats!
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
Quote:
The Browns have had ample opportunity to deny they are interested in anyone other than McCoy at the QB position. That's a smidgeon short of saying they no longer believe he's capable of being the man.
While I primarily agree with your assessment there is still the possibility that pre-draft with such a high pick they may be trying to keep their intentions unknown in case a trade scenario pops up for them.
Meaning = Even if they loved Colt to an absurd extreme, still, they don't want to say they won't take a QB in hopes of getting a QB seeking trade partner who will make them an offer they can't refuse for that #4 pick.
You know. Silly season and all. I don't put any stock into anything they're saying or not saying. That pick is too valuable to leak any true intentions without a diversion accompanying it. 
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
The Browns have had ample opportunity to deny they are interested in anyone other than McCoy at the QB position. That's a smidgeon short of saying they no longer believe he's capable of being the man.
While I primarily agree with your assessment there is still the possibility that pre-draft with such a high pick they may be trying to keep their intentions unknown in case a trade scenario pops up for them.
Meaning = Even if they loved Colt to an absurd extreme, still, they don't want to say they won't take a QB in hopes of getting a QB seeking trade partner who will make them an offer they can't refuse for that #4 pick.
You know. Silly season and all. I don't put any stock into anything they're saying or not saying. That pick is too valuable to leak any true intentions without a diversion accompanying it.
95 times out of 100 I would fully agree with that, but he's such an elite prospect and there's so much desire for him that it's not a question of whether or not he's going to go at #2, it's a question of who's going to pay the price. Because of that, I believe there isn't a team in the league that believes he'll fall to 4.
Thanks, 'Dub. Now my head hurts.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
A head like that oughta hurt.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,581
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,581 |
He does have a pretty big head....I've seen it.
Just kidding Toad.
I thought about starting a thread on this, but I'll just add it here because this is where I am and it seems to fit.
People say they don't want RGIII, but none have really said why.
Some have said cost of moving up, but I discount that. QB is the most important position so cost isn't really a issue if you are thinking long term. If cost is the reason, I don't even want the opinion as it's coming from someone who can't see beyond tomorrow.
So, what makes some of you think RGIII shouldn't be drafted by us and why he won't be a clear upgrade and top player in the league??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 832
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 832 |
Quote:
While in the past I've said I can make a case for taking a middle-of-the-road guy and using the picks to build the team, we're in a very VERY rare position where we can get an elite-level prospect at the QB position...
I would like to point out, for the record, I have been a part of the message board in one form or another since 2001. (Yes, pre-dating this board when we were all on that 'other site'.)
I can recall virtually EVERY year someone proclaiming how we were in a RARE position to nab our elite player of the future and we should mortgage the farm to trade up. I still fondly recall the Robert Gallery debates. *sigh*
Year # Player
1999 1 Tim Couch
2000 1 Courtney Brown
2001 3 Gerard Warren
2002 16 William Green
2003 21 Jeff Faine
2004 6 Kellen Winslow II
2005 3 Braylon Edwards
2006 13 Kamerion Wimbley
2007 3 Joe Thomas & 22 Brady Quinn
2008 — No Pick — —
2009 21 Alex Mack
2010 7 Joe Haden
2011 21 Phil Taylor
Seven times in the past 12 years we have had a top 10 pick. We should have had MORE top 5/10 picks than that. However, our FO has traded away first round picks (and others) to get that "special elite player". The reality is (based on team history) that we will likely be picking in the top 5 again in the next year or two.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Besides Winslow, Quinn, and to a point Mack... Who have we in the passed 12 years ever REALLY WENT AFTER?
Winslow we got duped to give up a 2, Quinn was next years 1st (and I assume extra?) and Mack we were on the receiving end of getting jipped out of more picks...
You act like we've traded away multiple first rounders every other year or something...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 832
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 832 |
Quote:
Besides Winslow, Quinn, and to a point Mack... Who have we in the passed 12 years ever REALLY WENT AFTER?
You act like we've traded away multiple first rounders every other year or something...
We have, by your count traded away picks (high picks - potential starters) in 3 of the past 7 or 8 years. That really wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point... Over suggested we are in a RARE position to get a top player/qb. I was attempting to make the point that, for the Browns, drafting in the top 5 really is not all that rare.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,532
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,532 |
j/c
Sign Flynn, Draft RG3, keep McCoy...and let them battle it out in camp....one of these guys have to step up right? LOL
I have been watching some old games on DVR, and there are times when Colt looks legit, then there are other times when he looks BAD. Growing pains, or just bad QB? I am glad its not my call. Part of me wants it to work out for him, part of me wants to get either Flynn, or RG3.....but all of me just wants to have someone under center I think can win us ball games. Out of the 3 RG3 brings the most hope. The guy is flat out fast, has a great arm, is smart, and mature for his age. He doesnt seem like a thug, or a locker room problem.
I honestly dont know enought about Flynn to give much of a opinion on. What I saw of him I have liked. But he could be another DA, or Holcomb. Being that he looked great in spot duty cause there wasnt much tape on him to find his weaknesses. If we decide to go this route they better do their homework on him, one of his upsides is, that he has been schooled in the WCO, so he should be able to come in day one and know the playbook.
Then there is the option of keeping McCoy and bringing in a vet. I brought up Chad Henne a few months back. I also like Jason Campbell. But the fact that I like either of these guys shows that I am just not that comfortable with Colt. Ugh either we go all in and try to fix this position, or we slap another band-aid on it and hope for the best.(Dilfer, Garcia, Delhomme) I so dont want to go that route again.
So as I am typing this I come to the conclusion I would offer 4, and 22....and next years 1, and go after RG3. that would be my best offer. If they dont take that then I go BPA at 4, and 22 Either way its going to be a fun time with FA, and the draft coming!
Go Browns!
#brownsgoodkarma
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,825
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,825 |
Your hyperbole can't hide the fact that while fan discontent can somewhat be dismissed, the lack of non-denials by the organization itself cannot be.
toad...I certainly dismiss the opinions of those fans trying to lay the blame for everything that was wrong with the Browns offense on McCoy...I don't believe I named you but if you feel you fall into that category, so be it.
As for the non-denials by the "organization"...what non-denials are you referring to?
I'm trying to decide if you're being pro-Mccoy, or if you're being anti-fan.
toad...pro McCoy?...
It is true that I refuse to jump on the bandwagon or become a follower of those wanting to lay blame on McCoy for the dismal offensive performance turned in during the 2011 season.
If that makes me Pro McCoy in your mind...fine. But I am the one who started the thread about signing Flynn and considering Campbell...guess that makes me Pro McCoy in your mind too, right?
As for your "anti-fan" comment...if I disagree with you or someone else about any issue, does that make me anti-fan, in your opinion?
Regardless of your stance here, youve been adamant that whomever the organization puts their faith in you're going to support.
toad...yep, regardless of what the Browns do in this draft, I will support whomever is the QB.
Since its obvious to anyone not blinded by their own beliefs that the Browns are ready to upgrade the position,
toad...can you provide the evidence that leads you to believe in this comment, that the Browns are ready to upgrade the position?
Who said the Browns were ready to upgrade the position and when did they say it?...got a link to the quote you are referring to?
I think its time to admit that the majority opinion that its time for a different qb has been justified.
toad...do you really believe your opinion matters to Holmgren?
Do you have any idea how much weight, this "imaginary majority opinion" you speak of, carries within the franchise?....try zero !
This majority opinion you manufactured is "meaningless" to those running this franchise.
There are scenarios where we end up with mccoy as the guy who lines up under center to start the season, but that won't mean he's the guy the organization believes in.
toad...this, I totally agree with.
Whether or not McCoy is the guy this organization believes in...won't be determined by who lines up behind center at the start of the season.
Whether or not McCoy is the guy this organization believes in...won't be determined by "fan opinion", either.
It will be determined on the football field and judged by those who are well qualified to make the judgement...not by any of the fans.
So...Mac...riding the fence is easy. Time to make a tougher statement. Do you believe in Mccoy or not?
toad..riding the fence?...I have laid out several different scenarios as possible options the Browns might consider, if they decide to add a QB.
NO, I'm not on your bandwagon that wants to give away the farm for the #2 pick in the draft...
...and NO, I'm not on the bandwagon that wants to blame McCoy for everything that was wrong with the offense in 2012.
Do I believe in McCoy or not...too soon to tell.
It's time to stop taking a shot at the fans and time to be one...
toad...those who are unrealistic about the state of the Browns supporting cast on offense and looking to lay most of the blame on our QBs, will get called out...with the facts.
Here are some of the facts I'm referring to...
Reasons the Browns didn't have a winning team in 2011?
Just year two of the rebuilding process
Rebuild might be at 50%
New, "first time" HC/OC
New playbook, the WCO
NFL lockout, no contact with coaching staff
No formal workouts in the offseason
Hillis strep throat
Steinie down and out
Rookie LG,
RG inexperienced, second year in the NFL
RT Pashos, Hicks, Cousins, nuff said
39 sacks and 83 qb hits
43 dropped passes..Browns receivers ranked #1 in the NFL in dropped passes
Browns 31st in NFL rushing for 3.7 yds per carry
Ryan Pontbriand
Even with this excellent supporting cast
...the Browns passing game ranked 24th in the NFL
...McCoy ranked 22nd in total passing yds
...McCoy ranked 25, tied with Josh Freeman in QB rating
...McCoy ranked 26th in completion percentage, just behind Flacco
...McCoy ranked 22nd in TD passes
...the Browns rushing game ranked 28th in the NFL
toad, you tell me, is it all McCoy's fault?
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Quote:
So...Mac...riding the fence is easy. Time to make a tougher statement. Do you believe in Mccoy or not?
toad..riding the fence?...I have laid out several different scenarios as possible options the Browns might consider, if they decide to add a QB.
NO, I'm not on your bandwagon that wants to give away the farm for the #2 pick in the draft...
...and NO, I'm not on the bandwagon that wants to blame McCoy for everything that was wrong with the offense in 2012.
Do I believe in McCoy or not...too soon to tell.
You must have really good balance to be able to stay on the fence this long...
Way to dodge the question btw...
It's fun not putting your opinion out there, so that you can't actually ever be wrong, isn't it?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,874
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,874 |
Quote:
Quote:
So...Mac...riding the fence is easy. Time to make a tougher statement. Do you believe in Mccoy or not?
toad..riding the fence?...I have laid out several different scenarios as possible options the Browns might consider, if they decide to add a QB.
NO, I'm not on your bandwagon that wants to give away the farm for the #2 pick in the draft...
...and NO, I'm not on the bandwagon that wants to blame McCoy for everything that was wrong with the offense in 2012.
Do I believe in McCoy or not...too soon to tell.
You must have really good balance to be able to stay on the fence this long...
Way to dodge the question btw...
It's fun not putting your opinion out there, so that you can't actually ever be wrong, isn't it?
i think he did put his opinion out there.. he's saying he wants to stay with mccoy but NO, he's not totally sold on him.. he feels he needs more time to know..
can you tell me what's wrong with that
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
He said... Quote:
Do I believe in McCoy or not...too soon to tell.
and you got...
Quote:
he's saying he wants to stay with mccoy but NO, he's not totally sold on him..
How?
Quote:
he feels he needs more time to know..
Which is the exact opposite of stating your opinion...
Quote:
can you tell me what's wrong with that
Theres nothing WRONG with it...
If he wants to sit here and burn people at the stake for their opinions without ever really giving his, that's his thing, he seems pretty good at it...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,431
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,431 |
Quote:
If he wants to sit here and burn people at the stake for their opinions without ever really giving his, that's his thing, he seems pretty good at it...
Exactly.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,546
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,546 |
My 2 cents...
I'd bet we don't even make a play for Flynn. At this point, and against what I feel would be best, I think we either trade up for the #2 and get RG3 or Luck (If Indy has bought into the RG3 hype) or we try to move down and get Tannehill.
However, Flynn makes the most since to me IF we're going for a QB. Personally, I'd like to see us upgrade the WRs in the draft more than anything. Two #1 quality WRs would change everything.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
toad...I certainly dismiss the opinions of those fans trying to lay the blame for everything that was wrong with the Browns offense on McCoy...I don't believe I named you but if you feel you fall into that category, so be it.
I've no idea how you got that out of what I said. Quote:
As for the non-denials by the "organization"...what non-denials are you referring to?
Every single team that is TRULY content with the QB they have will flat-out deny any interest in another guy.
Every single team that is TRULY content with the QB they have will flat-out deny any interest in trading up for another QB.
To this point, I've yet to see any denials by anyone associated with the Browns organization that they are interested in any guy but McCoy.
Quote:
I'm trying to decide if you're being pro-Mccoy, or if you're being anti-fan.
toad...pro McCoy?...
It is true that I refuse to jump on the bandwagon or become a follower of those wanting to lay blame on McCoy for the dismal offensive performance turned in during the 2011 season.
So just say you're anti-fan. It's not hard to say.
Quote:
If that makes me Pro McCoy in your mind...fine.
Quote:
As for your "anti-fan" comment...if I disagree with you or someone else about any issue, does that make me anti-fan, in your opinion?
Nope, but when you seemingly lump an entire percentage of the fan-base into the hater-category, THEN you're becoming anti-fan.
Quote:
Since its obvious to anyone not blinded by their own beliefs that the Browns are ready to upgrade the position,
toad...can you provide the evidence that leads you to believe in this comment, that the Browns are ready to upgrade the position?
Yup. There are no denials that they are interested in other QB's, nor are there any adamant stances from anyone in the organization that they are fully behind McCoy as the unquestioned starter. In today's NFL, when you fully believe in your guy, you support him 100% by aggressively denying any interest in other QB's.
By their silence the Browns are making their stance crystal-clear.
Quote:
toad...do you really believe your opinion matters to Holmgren?
Quote:
Do you have any idea how much weight, this "imaginary majority opinion" you speak of, carries within the franchise?....try zero !
This majority opinion you manufactured is "meaningless" to those running this franchise.
Mac, you have a gift unique to yourself. You have the unparalleled ability to fabricate an imaginary point that nobody is making and argue against it. 
Quote:
toad..riding the fence?...I have laid out several different scenarios as possible options the Browns might consider, if they decide to add a QB.
I didn't ask for your analysis. I asked where you stand on McCoy.
Quote:
NO, I'm not on your bandwagon that wants to give away the farm for the #2 pick in the draft...
I didn't ask that, either, and you still haven't answered the question.
Quote:
...and NO, I'm not on the bandwagon that wants to blame McCoy for everything that was wrong with the offense in 2012.
I didn't ask that, either, and you STILL haven't answered the question.
Quote:
Do I believe in McCoy or not...too soon to tell.
So you have absolutely no opinion one way or another. You cannot decide whether you believe he is the man or if he needs to be replaced.
I cannot imagine that there is another fan on this board who isn't leaning one way or another.
That, almost by pure definition, is fence-riding.
I'll tell you what I think...I think you absolutely have a feeling, but that you're having way too much fun playing fence-rider to say it 
When you're purely withdrawn from any specific opinion on a topic, you can become a mediator, a moderator, and hold the gavel. You're enjoying holding the gavel. If you give your honest opinion, you lose that ability.
I probably should apologize for putting you on the shrinks couch, but I've watched this angle you've taken for quite a while, and I just had to get you talking about it so that you'd reveal where your mind really resides.
I get it now.
Quote:
toad, you tell me, is it all McCoy's fault?
I never said it was.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,431
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,431 |
I think the word is non-committal. They have not committed to anything as far as the QB position goes ...... but I would be surprised if 32 out of 32 teams don't expect them to, at the very least, take a long hard look at the top QBs in this draft.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Hmmm....Yeah, I can see that angle, but only because they kinda have to take that stance IF they don't believe in McCoy.
If they love the guy, you don't screw around. You say he's your guy and you give him your unquestioned support to get the most out of him.
If they don't love the guy, and see several scenario's where they cannot upgrade and may get stuck with the guy they have, they absolutely cannot come right out and say they are looking for someone else.
So where does that leave the franchise? They have to sit on their proverbial hands with Colt.
Everyone knows what's happening, including McCoy. The really sad part is that while we all know how the organization feels now, there remains a very real chance he's the guy by default. If that's the case, let the rebuilding process continue...
Oh...and Ytown...why are you blaming McCoy for all of the Browns offensive woes?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,431
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,431 |
Well, because obviously the rest of the team are all All Pros, except for McCoy. We couldn't possibly upgrade any of the other positions .... except QB. That's why I'd be perfectly fine with trading all of our draft picks this year and next for RG3. **You know that someone is going to take this obvious sarcasm as serious, and I'll be reading a post in a few days that says that I think we should trade all of our draft picks for the next decade for RG3 or some other such nonsense ........ or that I don't think that we need to upgrade any positions ............ and they'll seriously think that ......... and it'll be all your damn fault. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Green Bay not expected to tag
Flynn
|
|
