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quite possible.. my logic though is we are in a very tough division that is loaded with top defensive play makers... we need top talent to block these guys.
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Because I think that they like their LT-RG right now, and because I think that they believe that money can be spent better elsewhere.
It's just what I happen to think is the direction they are heading. I don't see a huge G signing. I see an experienced WR, maybe a young RT,and probably some defensive help in free agency. I don't see them signing an inside OL or a RB in free agency. I think that we could go QB either through a trade, free agency, or early in the draft, but I do see us adding a guy of consequence at the position.
This will take a fair amount of money.
I just don't see Guard as anywhere near the same need, nor do I see us spending a huge amount of money on a high end signing when I think that the front office likes what they see out of the young OL they are developing.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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If you listen to the interview with Heckert on the official website ( here is the link) he says that he doesn't see the point in signing guys that will be passed their prime when the team is good. If the plan is to be a contender in 2013 that means Nicks would be at the end of his prime when we are finally good and then would have to be replaced. Also, I think that a line of Thomas/Pinkston/Mack/Lauvao/? can be very good in the future.
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That doesn't make any sense.
Homie and Heck said they were going to be active in FA.
Most guys enter the league at 21-22 years old and sign 4 year contracts.
Anybody worth a flip is going to be 25-26 years old. Nicks is 27....I don't see the big deal.
If that's the thinking we might as well dump Joe Thomas because he will be past his prime when we finally get good.
Maybe the thinking should be we need to bring in a few of these guys now, so we get good sooner??
Would that be called a plan??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I don't think that 27 is old for a free agent, especially a Guard. (the best of whom can play well into their mid 30s)
I do think that Guard will not be seen as a need, and especially not somewhere where we need to spend big dollars.
JMHO.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I can buy that as a legit reason, even if I disagree about the need aspect.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Yeah, I think Y is on the money. This FO was OK going into this season with 2 untested guards and a RT that was always injured and had to search the grocery stores and gas stations for a RT when Pashos couldn't answer the opening bell.All that with a QB that had started 8? games plus no training camp to speak of. I get the feeling they think any big body will do. I'd be really surprised if they spent big money on Nicks. Shoot happy, but surprised.
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Quote:
Yeah, I think Y is on the money. This FO was OK going into this season with 2 untested guards and a RT that was always injured and had to search the grocery stores and gas stations for a RT when Pashos couldn't answer the opening bell.All that with a QB that had started 8? games plus no training camp to speak of. I get the feeling they think any big body will do. I'd be really surprised if they spent big money on Nicks. Shoot happy, but surprised.
Any team that would let Hillis and dawson walk is capable of any number of bad personnel evaluations. Any team that felt its oline and wr corp were good heading into last season seems challenged. I have absolutely no idea what this "brain" trust is capable of doing.
When I heard the Heckert interview a few days back and he said he thought Shurmer did a great job as HC i wanted to vomit. A great job was done by harbaugh in SF. I realize spin is what herock has to do yet he gives fans little hope the front office is tuned in to reality. Oh and Shurmur plans no changes to the special team coach, heartwarming.
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Quote:
I am in favor of that as well.
Bad teams can't keep losing talent. They have to build on the talent they have.
While I agree with you, I'm pretty sure Hillis is gone.
I think everyone else on the list stays.
It would be nice, such as the case with Hillis, if for once we didn't dump every talent we have at the first sign of adversity.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Who is herock? You obviously are trying to make some sort of point that nobody understands. Quote:
Any team that would let Hillis and dawson walk
I hadn't got the news, are both these guys off the team? If they let Hillis walk they have a good reason (he quit on the team halfway through the season). I'm sure they want Dawson back, but they may have to use the franchise tag on D'Qwell Jackson. I think it is clear that Dawson doesn't want to be in Cleveland anymore, if he leaves that's on him, not the front office.
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Any team that felt its oline and wr corp were good heading into last season seems challenged.
What would you have them do differently? Sign TO? What offensive lineman was available that fit into our rebuilding plan?
Quote:
When I heard the Heckert interview a few days back and he said he thought Shurmer did a great job as HC i wanted to vomit.
What do you want him to say?
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Joe few thoughts on ur statements...
While the special teams was suspect early in the year...they really shored up by the end of the year. Yount stabilized what was a bizarre situation with our LS. We didnt have any breakdowns in coverage by the end of the year.
Tabor, for all his early warts, really turned it around...
As for if we were to let Hillis and/or Dawson walk being an epic error...
Eh...while Dawson has been great for us, he did have the least amount of TBs this year of any kicker (10 TBs in 59 KOs) which means he's not kicking the ball very deep which, in the new age of KOs he's struggling. If we got younger in the K department, with a guy like Jeff Wolfert who we had in preseason this year and I think the year before, wouldnt kill us, the guy did damn well.
If Hillis leaves...While it is a blow, its not the end of the world. We have a decent stable of RBs, though Hardesty is a bit of a question mark (because ACL injuries take over a year to regain their explosiveness) but he could respond and return back to the form that made him a 2nd rounder. If he doesnt he doesnt, Ogbonnaya was a lot better than anyone is giving him credit for, he went over 110 in a game and had 95 and a TD in another, in an offense that stunk. Between OGB, Hardesty, and Armond Smith (who with an offseason within the system could really add some burst to the offense) teaming them with 3rd down back Brandon Jackson who has shown an ability to spot start...we have 4 RBs that are decent, and could in commitee replace the production of Hillis, maybe not as successfully grinding out the tough yards, but OGB could replace that.
If you look at our late season rushing, it really improved, and that i think is a testament to the coming together of the OL, and the improvement of Owen Marecic in our scheme. Throw in the offseason and we'll improve in the run game.
While it looks as though we'd be creating a hole, its a hole that we can fill by committee of the guys we have here. And Dawson, is replaceable as Jeff Wolfert showed he can kick in Cleveland...he hasnt showed he can kick in the cold yet, but he kicked in bad weather twice in the preseason, once in the rain and once in a wind fest, and he did well.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Quote:
Any team that would let Hillis and dawson walk is capable of any number of bad personnel evaluations.
Well, it takes two to tango.. Hillis says he wants to be here. And if we offer him say 5 mill a year for 3 years to stay and he still leaves, how is that a reflection on the Browns? I don't believe they will do that, I also don't belive he's worth that. And I'd never advocate they pay him as if he's Walter Payton.. he's not.
As for Dawson, I think him selling his home here in Ohio last year sent a message, he doesn't want to be here.
What is it that the Browns should do...Hold a gun to his head?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Eh...while Dawson has been great for us, he did have the least amount of TBs this year of any kicker (10 TBs in 59 KOs) which means he's not kicking the ball very deep which, in the new age of KOs he's struggling. If we got younger in the K department, with a guy like Jeff Wolfert who we had in preseason this year and I think the year before, wouldnt kill us, the guy did damn well.
Dawson doesn't seem to have a problem kicking long field goals.
I've heard people say that he might purposely kick it a little higher giving our special teams a chance to go for fumbles on kickoffs. Just something for thought
That being said, I do think that eventually we're going to have to look to replace Dawson, period. If he doesn't want to play here, I don't see why we don't find someone else. The guy is 37.......... Unfortunately, replacing the experience he brings (with the Cleveland weather) might not be that easy. But there's gotta be other kickers out there in this league
EDIT: Regarding Damon's post: We could always hold a franchise tag to his head
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Regarding Damon's post: We could always hold a franchise tag to his head
We could and we did. If we did it again we would have to pay him the top five average for his position plus something like 20% because it is the second year we tagged him.
Also, we might have to use the franchise tag on D'Qwell Jackson if we can't get him signed to a long term deal.
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We could and we did. If we did it again we would have to pay him the top five average for his position plus something like 20% because it is the second year we tagged him.
I'm aware of that. But it's still not THAT much money. He is a kicker after all. The first franchise is what, the average of the top 10?
I mean, if there's no one out there we can get to replace him........ Why not.
Although a disgruntled kicker can be a dangerous thing.
My cousin was a great punter, invite to the combine and everything. He led the nation in punting his sophmore year, and he really wasn't that into it. He just didn't really like college football. He's at Univ of Texas now doing like Chemical Engineering Grad School. Ridiculously book smart kid.
Anyway, I always told him that it would be great if he went to the combine, said he'd only play for the Steelers. The Steelers draft him. And at a Browns vs Steelers game, Hines Field, right when it counts the most, receive a snap, hand it to a Browns player rushing him, wait for the TD. Rip off the Steelers jersey (have a Browns jersey underneath) and flip two birds in the sky while leaving the field. That would be epic. He'd probably win top 10 plays on espn, lol
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Quote:
Quote:
Regarding Damon's post: We could always hold a franchise tag to his head
We could and we did. If we did it again we would have to pay him the top five average for his position plus something like 20% because it is the second year we tagged him.
Also, we might have to use the franchise tag on D'Qwell Jackson if we can't get him signed to a long term deal.
Right, they could franchise him as was said, but he's getting pretty old in NFL years.. Not sure he's worth what would be between 3 and 4 million for a year..
As for DQ.. that's another issue.. they may have to use the tag for him. Who do you tag,,, DQ or Dawson.. it bums me to say this, but I'd go with DQ..
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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I agree that it wouldn't be too expensive to franchise Dawson again (I think I read somewhere $3.9 million). But I think saving the franchise tag for D'Qwell Jackson is more important.
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I agree that it wouldn't be too expensive to franchise Dawson again (I think I read somewhere $3.9 million). But I think saving the franchise tag for D'Qwell Jackson is more important.
How much will franchising Jackson cost? 10 million?
I doubt Jackson would cost more than 5 million a season on a two year contract...........
I'm thinking we'll be able to re-sign him. He's had injury issues and I mean, while he records a ton of tackles, he's not a superstar or anything. I just don't think we're going to have to resort to a franchise tag with him
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But if it comes down to that wouldn't you rather tag Jackson over Dawson?
Jackson was one the best middle linebackers in the league this past season.
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Question for the peanut gallery.. what if we are able to lock Jackson up for 4 years, since the FO seems to really want to keep him here... what then do we do with the franchise tag? Not use it? Dawson? Hillis?
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
But if it comes down to that wouldn't you rather tag Jackson over Dawson?
Jackson was one the best middle linebackers in the league this past season.
And Dawson was one of the best kickers in the league since 1999,...
for me, the difference is, Dawson doesn't have a lot left.. DQ does,, I'd tag DQ and find another kicker if that's what it came down to.
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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Please. sir! More Hillis!  
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Quote:
As for Dawson, I think him selling his home here in Ohio last year sent a message, he doesn't want to be here.
That, or in a bad housing market he was offered a fair price and jumped on it.
Cleveland's real estate market is down, and Dawson isn't planning on living there forever, so maybe he thought he was getting near the end of the career and maybe just needed to buy his home where he finally wanted to settle.
I kind of think that was the real motivation...buy the house in Galveston or wherever it is in Texas he wants to settle down, sell the Ohio home and rent wherever it is he ends up playing his last 2-3-4 years.
Sounds like a plan to me.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I'd be reluctant to pay Hillis the big contract he wants for no other reason than he hasn't proven he can stay healthy. He had big games this season, but he also played in only 10 games. I'd expect the guy to look fresh in that situation.
And, I don't think Hardesty is the answer. If we let Hillis walk, I have a feeling we'll be going for a RB early in FA or early in the draft (first couple rounds).
I won't be surprised if Dawson leaves. The guy's been clutch, no doubt. But, I'd rather tag DQ if we have to than tag Dawson again.
The other guys are important, but not as big a deal as Hillis, DQ and Dawson.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I have a feeling that Hillis is as good as gone.
Before I get the 10th degree from certain posters ...... it's just a feeling.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
I have a feeling that Hillis is as good as gone.
Before I get the 10th degree from certain posters ...... it's just a feeling.
Of course he is, I got a Hillis jersey Christmas before last. Heck, I'm surprised he lasted this long.
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J/C
How much does it take to sign Hillis? Didn't he turn down a 3 year $13 million dollar deal? That's 4.3 mil a year, how much higher do you go, with him playing only 10 games, did he earn more than 4.3 mil?
If it was up to me I would try really hard to sign Michael Bush if Oakland somehow doesn't franchise him. With Oak you never know what they are going to do.
Would you rather have Hillis or Bush?
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Petey, DQ will cost much more. Remember, they extended gocong at almost $7 million per during the season.
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3 Year 16.8 extension comes out to 5.6 per year assuming its not back/front loaded or what have you not...
Which based on my years of Madden isn't bad for a starting LBer, So I could see us getting DQ in the 7-8 per year range, depending on how he values himself, I'd also assume the contract would be very incentive laden...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Quote:
As for Dawson, I think him selling his home here in Ohio last year sent a message, he doesn't want to be here.
That, or in a bad housing market he was offered a fair price and jumped on it.
Cleveland's real estate market is down, and Dawson isn't planning on living there forever, so maybe he thought he was getting near the end of the career and maybe just needed to buy his home where he finally wanted to settle.
I kind of think that was the real motivation...buy the house in Galveston or wherever it is in Texas he wants to settle down, sell the Ohio home and rent wherever it is he ends up playing his last 2-3-4 years.
Sounds like a plan to me.
Maybe he also realizes that he is only going to play for a few more years and he has kids that are 10, 8, and 5.. and he wants them to get settled in to the place where he ultimately will retire instead of having to move them 3 or 4 years from now when they are more involved in sports, etc...
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Joe few thoughts on ur statements...
While the special teams was suspect early in the year...they really shored up by the end of the year. Yount stabilized what was a bizarre situation with our LS. We didnt have any breakdowns in coverage by the end of the year.
Tabor, for all his early warts, really turned it around...
As for if we were to let Hillis and/or Dawson walk being an epic error...
Eh...while Dawson has been great for us, he did have the least amount of TBs this year of any kicker (10 TBs in 59 KOs) which means he's not kicking the ball very deep which, in the new age of KOs he's struggling. If we got younger in the K department, with a guy like Jeff Wolfert who we had in preseason this year and I think the year before, wouldnt kill us, the guy did damn well.
If Hillis leaves...While it is a blow, its not the end of the world. We have a decent stable of RBs, though Hardesty is a bit of a question mark (because ACL injuries take over a year to regain their explosiveness) but he could respond and return back to the form that made him a 2nd rounder. If he doesnt he doesnt, Ogbonnaya was a lot better than anyone is giving him credit for, he went over 110 in a game and had 95 and a TD in another, in an offense that stunk. Between OGB, Hardesty, and Armond Smith (who with an offseason within the system could really add some burst to the offense) teaming them with 3rd down back Brandon Jackson who has shown an ability to spot start...we have 4 RBs that are decent, and could in commitee replace the production of Hillis, maybe not as successfully grinding out the tough yards, but OGB could replace that.
If you look at our late season rushing, it really improved, and that i think is a testament to the coming together of the OL, and the improvement of Owen Marecic in our scheme. Throw in the offseason and we'll improve in the run game.
While it looks as though we'd be creating a hole, its a hole that we can fill by committee of the guys we have here. And Dawson, is replaceable as Jeff Wolfert showed he can kick in Cleveland...he hasnt showed he can kick in the cold yet, but he kicked in bad weather twice in the preseason, once in the rain and once in a wind fest, and he did well.
Dawson knows how to kcik in the windy stadium better than any kicker and is a big advantage. Hills is Far superior to any back now on the roster. I stand by what I say.
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I'd be reluctant to pay Hillis the big contract he wants for no other reason than he hasn't proven he can stay healthy. He had big games this season, but he also played in only 10 games. I'd expect the guy to look fresh in that situation.
And, I don't think Hardesty is the answer. If we let Hillis walk, I have a feeling we'll be going for a RB early in FA or early in the draft (first couple rounds).
I won't be surprised if Dawson leaves. The guy's been clutch, no doubt. But, I'd rather tag DQ if we have to than tag Dawson again.
The other guys are important, but not as big a deal as Hillis, DQ and Dawson. [/quote
So losing two out of three is a bang up job for the front office.
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More or less what I am saying even though I didn't think of the kid factor.
I am sure buying the house in Texas is where he and his wife want to live.
I don't think it means he planned on playing for a Texas team.
He makes enough money he can maintain a rental unit of some sort and keep a few sticks of furniture in the place.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Quote:
I'd be reluctant to pay Hillis the big contract he wants for no other reason than he hasn't proven he can stay healthy.
Who has?
MJD missed a couple games last year... Arian Foster missed 3 games this year and some time last year... Fred Jackson missed 6 games this year... Darren McFadden missed 9 games this year and 3 last year... LeSean McCoy missed a game this year... Matt Forte missed 4 games this year... Marshawn Lynch missed 1 game this year and 4 games last year... Frank Gore has only played a complete season twice in 7 years...
In fact, the number of running backs that have proven they CAN stay healthy, is a mighty short list. If you get 13-14 games a year out of a running back, consider that about average.. so he was above average last year and a bit below average this year... He had a nagging hamstring problem, there is no reason to believe he won't come back 100% next year and yes, he will probably get dinged somewhere along the line and miss a couple games... that's why you need more than one.
Hardesty is a legit injury concern and Obie is new and its hard to tell what they think of him... letting Hillis walk doesn't create one position of need, it creates two... we already need a second back.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246 |
I understand what you're saying. Because all RBs get hurt, we should pay Hillis to stay.
I have no problem with him staying. I just don't want to break the bank on the guy. He's a valuable member of this team, but HOW valuable? That's the question. To me, I haven't seen it to say he's worth MJD or Adrian Peterson money. What's he asking for? I have no idea.
But, in the end, I think we're kind of saying the same thing. If Hillis does walk and we don't sign any FAs or draft anybody, then that means we're going with Hardesty, Obie and Jackson as our RBs. That is not a backfield that inspires a lot of confidence.
So, if we let Hillis go, then that means, to me at least, that we're going to pursue a no. 1 back in FA or in the early rounds of the draft.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280 |
Quote:
To me, I haven't seen it to say he's worth MJD or Adrian Peterson money. What's he asking for? I have no idea.
I don't know what he wants either. But let me lay out some reference points.
MJD is under his 2009 contract which was for 5 years and $30.95 million... and in 2011 the Vikings resigned Peterson to 7 years and $100 million... so you can't just say that Hillis isn't in either league as far as money goes because Peterson is in a league by himself.
I posted Michael Turners contract which, in 2008 was 6 years and $36 million...
Arian Foster is a restricted FA this year and the Texans are trying to lock him up.. Ray Rice, I believe is in the last year of his deal... it will be interesting to see how that goes as it could very well set a bar by which we can judge the Hillis money..
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Forte is up for a new contract as well. he is looking for Chris Johnson money (and probably deserves it more)
Will be interesting to see what the market is for Hillis. if we get either him or Michael Bush in FA though at a reasonable rate ($4-6mil/year), then I'll be happy.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
Quote:
Forte is up for a new contract as well. he is looking for Chris Johnson money (and probably deserves it more)
Will be interesting to see what the market is for Hillis. if we get either him or Michael Bush in FA though at a reasonable rate ($4-6mil/year), then I'll be happy.
I'm not totally sure but I don't believe Michael Bush is a strong receiver out of the backfield..I could be wrong but I don't think that is his strong suit and if so He will not fit into the Browns offensive game plan. RB and even Fullbacks in this offense have to be dual threat.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Cleveland Browns facing five
important free-agent decisions
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