|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 560
All Pro
|
OP
All Pro
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 560 |
I listen to WKNR 850 as I'm sure many of you do. They constantly bash the Browns for not finding our franchise QB. I do agree that if we had found one, the Browns fortunes would have been much better. I wondered where we went wrong finding one. I'm sure we could have traded up in the draft, or found one in free agency, but which ones did we just pass on in the first round? I excluded the 1999 draft with D. McNabb, Akili Smith, D. Culpepper and C. McNown because all of these guys are now washed up and wouldn't have helped us now. I was surprised to find that in the last 12 years we only passed on 2 guys (Roethlisberger and Rodgers) that would have drastically helped us. Ironically, these two HUGE mistakes netted us two pro bowlers (KW2 and Braylon). Mark Sanchez or J. Freeman might have helped but again netted another pro bowler (Mack). I would have to argue, that as incompetent as the Browns seem, I think they just have not been horrible enough to land great prospects in the draft like Atlanta (M. Ryan), Detroit (M. Stafford) and soon Indy (A. Luck). These teams all had to be the worst to get that franchise changing QB. Looking again at our biggest mistakes, in 2004 Butch had J. Garcia at QB and passed on Ben. In 2005 Phil Savage had Trent Dilfer and passed on A. Rodgers to grab Braylon.  And there you have it. Phil screwed us the most. 2000 C. Pennington 2001 None 2002 Patrick Ramsey 2003 R. Grossman 2004 B. Roethlisberger and JP Losman 2005 A. Rodgers and J. Campbell 2006 None 2007 None 2008 None 2009 M. Sanchez, J. Freeman 2010 T. Tebow 2011 J. Locker, B. Gabbert, C. Ponder Again, I only included 1st rounders that we passed on.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,063 Likes: 1113
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,063 Likes: 1113 |
Quote:
Phil screwed us the most.
Agreed.
After watching Ben destroy my High School alma mater and my college alma mater, I really REALLY wanted him to be picked by us, even though he's on record as having never been a Browns fan.
As I look at the rest of that list, I see only one other name that inspires envy in me. I guess it really does show how rare a "Franchise QB" really is... wherever he's selected in the draft.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
Quote:
even though he's on record as having never been a Browns fan.
He's on record for worse things.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,186
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,186 |
Butch Davis was far worse than Savage in my opinion. At least Savage brought Joe THomas here. Butch always went for raw talent, that had questionable character as well. The guy passed on Ladanian, Ed Reed, Big Ben. Don't even get me started on the 2003 draft. He should've been fired for that draft alone.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
No offense meant but, do we really need a thread talking about QBs we haven't picked?
Unless someone has access to a time machine this effort is really pretty pointless, don't you think......
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,799 Likes: 158
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,799 Likes: 158 |
Quote:
No offense meant but, do we really need a thread talking about QBs we haven't picked?
Unless someone has access to a time machine this effort is really pretty pointless, don't you think......
I was kinda wondering the same thing.. Maybe it's just a Biatch session..
You know fans,,, a bunch of witchy little girls
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,212
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,212 |
2004 ticks me off the most. Gave a pick to Detroit for Winslow. Could of just stayed put, and if Winslow went, just drafted Ben. I still shake my head at it.
But H and H could easily make this list-- all they need to do is draft RGIII.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 560
All Pro
|
|
OP
All Pro
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 560 |
Quote:
No offense meant but, do we really need a thread talking about QBs we haven't picked?
Unless someone has access to a time machine this effort is really pretty pointless, don't you think......
My point was to figure out why we don't have a franchise QB. The old saying 'those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it'. What I learned was that if you don't have a franchise QB, you better suck bad enough to grab the elite like the Colts are doing this year. 4-12 and 6-10 every year get you nowhere.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,799 Likes: 158
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,799 Likes: 158 |
Quote:
Quote:
No offense meant but, do we really need a thread talking about QBs we haven't picked?
Unless someone has access to a time machine this effort is really pretty pointless, don't you think......
My point was to figure out why we don't have a franchise QB. The old saying 'those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it'. What I learned was that if you don't have a franchise QB, you better suck bad enough to grab the elite like the Colts are doing this year. 4-12 and 6-10 every year get you nowhere.
Except that isn't entirely accurate. You can find QB's lower than the top picks.. Rodgers was picked in the 20s, Rothlesburger was picked 11th I think... Brees was in the second round, Favre was a second rounder for the falcons and traded for by the Packers. Brady was a 6th rounder.
Then you have Couch, Klingler, Smith, maddox, Pennington (good player, couldn't stay healthy), David Carr, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, Byron Leftwich, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, JP Losman, Alex smith who most would have considered to be a bust until this season, Jason Campbell who again, just hit his stride this season until he was injuryed, Vince Young, Matt Lienart.... ETC ETC..
I could go on and on but my point is, picking high isn't any guarantee that you will get a guy that will end up being the next Marino, Manning, Elway, Brady etc.
The reason is simple and Alex Smith may be the biggest example, if you take a QB, ask him to do things he's not good at, I don't give a damn how talented he is, he will probably fail.
But you take a guy like Tom Brady who was passed over 198 times in the draft, but hits the right system with the right OC and the right HC with the right guys supporting him and a starting QB that got injured.. and BOOM,, 3 rings later, he's a sure HOFer
Saying you need a High 1st round QB to win is like saying you need a $210.000 Bentley Contenental GT Speed to go to the grocery store...
It's amazing, it's great and it's wonderful and a ton of fun,, But not mandatory.. you can get by with a Chevy or Ford.... and you will have change left over to go to McDonalds for a snack.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,515 Likes: 21
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,515 Likes: 21 |
Quote:
No offense meant but, do we really need a thread talking about QBs we haven't picked?
Unless someone has access to a time machine this effort is really pretty pointless, don't you think......
No,we don't need another qb thread.What we need are more people to tell us what we really need,such as you and Daman.
I found this interesting,and not quite as bad as I had originally thought.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Since I don't live here, I don't listen to WKNR, but I did today. It's great conversation. Some of it makes me think, while some of it makes me think they are whiny board members 
I'm chiming in because of Jeff Garcia and Butch. There's no telling how good for how long Garcia would have been, had Butch not renegged on his promise to bring Walsh in to help implement the WCO.
As for other QB's we could have drafted, we had chances to get guys but elected to either stand pat with bums, or weren't willing to move around to get a guy. Really, we just had the wrong guys picking the wrong guys. Lucky us. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979 Likes: 83
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979 Likes: 83 |
Quote:
David Carr, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, Byron Leftwich, Kyle Boller, Rex Grossman, JP Losman, Alex smith who most would have considered to be a bust until this season, Jason Campbell who again, just hit his stride this season until he was injuryed, Vince Young, Matt Lienart.... ETC ETC..
We don't need any Spurgeon Wynn clone in the 4th round or later, and we don't need a Klinger or Akili Smith, but I'd sure rather see them take a chance on someone like Any of these guys and get it halfway wrong.
Here's why, Carr, Ramsey Harrington, Leftwich, Boller, Grossman, Losman, A. Smith, Campbell, Vince Young, and Leinart, have something in common.
Arm Strength.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,799 Likes: 158
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,799 Likes: 158 |
Quote:
Here's why, Carr, Ramsey Harrington, Leftwich, Boller, Grossman, Losman, A. Smith, Campbell, Vince Young, and Leinart, have something in common.
Arm Strength
And where did that get them in the NFL.. big arms don't mean success.. Derrick Anderson has one of the biggest arms ever to put on a Browns Uni.. how did that work out long term?
Arm strength is important, you need enough to make the throws required in whatever system your in. But that's it. the rest is instinct and smarts and most of all, the right system with the right guys surrounding you.,
Maybe the dumbest argument ever
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,768 Likes: 169
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,768 Likes: 169 |
Quote:
I listen to WKNR 850 as I'm sure many of you do. They constantly bash the Browns for not finding our franchise QB.
Looking again at our biggest mistakes, in 2004 Butch had J. Garcia at QB and passed on Ben. In 2005 Phil Savage had Trent Dilfer and passed on A. Rodgers to grab Braylon. And there you have it. Phil screwed us the most.
chin...imo, your first mistake is taking what is said on WKNR seriously.
The people you are listening to, are "talking heads"..."shock jocks"...they are not FOOTBALL PEOPLE!
It's not just KNR either...the FAN is not any better when it comes to throwing out thoughtless opinions, meant to stimulate the listeners emotions...rather than stimulate the brain. They don't want listeners to think...they want listeners to react to their opinions without thinking...the radio stations want Browns fans to follow and support the opinions of their talking heads.
Hindsight is always 20-20, woulda, coulda, shoulda...as long as the media is talking about what happened in the past and judging based on their "hindsight", they have a great chance of judging correctly, "now"...
But what were their opinions before draft day?
Take Aaron Rogers for example...how many of the talking heads, spouting their 20-20 hindsight today, believed Rogers was going to be a top QB before the 2005 draft? 23 teams passed on picking Aaron Rogers in the first round as he dropped down the draft board. Yet today, talking heads want you to believe they would have taken Aaron Rogers with the 3rd pick in the 2005 draft. There were questions about Rogers, well founded too.
I wonder how many realize, Aaron Rogers was worse than Colt McCoy at the end of his second season with the Packers. Had Aaron Rogers been picked by the Browns at #3 of the 2005 draft, the radio talking heads here would have been criticizing the Browns front office for picking Rogers and they would be declaring him a "bust".
But Rogers was chosen by the Packers, who were much more patient with Rogers...surely more patient than Cleveland's radio and tv talking heads. Rogers began to show signs that he might be the QB the Packers front office thought he would be, in the "12th" game of his 3rd season. It was not a game that Rogers started either...he relieved Favre and did a good job bringing the Packers back but ultimately the Packers lost the game.
The team that Rogers was playing on, in his 3rd season with the Packers...they were loaded with talent, which gave Rogers every advantage he needed to succeed...they were 13-3 and missed going to the Super Bowl losing to the Giants in OT of the NFC Championship game...Favre's last game as a Packer.
In Roger's 4th season with the Packers, he finally became the QB the Packers front office thought he would be when the drafted him with the 24th pick of the 1st round of the 2005 draft...the draft where the Browns passed on Aaron Rogers to draft Braylon Edwards.
Any of the radio talking heads or the fans that follow them have that much patience?...Patience enough to wait until a 1st round picks 4th season before making him the starter?
BTW, those talking heads declaring they would have picked Rogers over Braylon Edwards...they are "lying".
Obviously, hindsight is still 20-20 in Cleveland.
Last edited by mac; 01/10/12 10:40 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
Quote:
Quote:
Here's why, Carr, Ramsey Harrington, Leftwich, Boller, Grossman, Losman, A. Smith, Campbell, Vince Young, and Leinart, have something in common.
Arm Strength
And where did that get them in the NFL.. big arms don't mean success.. Derrick Anderson has one of the biggest arms ever to put on a Browns Uni.. how did that work out long term?
Arm strength is important, you need enough to make the throws required in whatever system your in. But that's it. the rest is instinct and smarts and most of all, the right system with the right guys surrounding you.,
Maybe the dumbest argument ever
Not only that but I believe Spergeon Wynn had the strongest arm of all of them..So I am not sure what any of that means.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
Quote:
chin...imo, your first mistake is taking what is said on WKNR seriously.
The people you are listening to, are "talking heads"..."shock jocks"...they are not FOOTBALL PEOPLE!
It's not just KNR either...the FAN is not any better when it comes to throwing out thoughtless opinions, meant to stimulate the listeners emotions...rather than stimulate the brain. They don't want listeners to think...they want listeners to react to their opinions without thinking...the radio stations want Browns fans to follow and support the opinions of their talking heads.
Hindsight is always 20-20, woulda, coulda, shoulda...as long as the media is talking about what happened in the past and judging based on their "hindsight", they have a great chance of judging correctly, "now"...
But what were their opinions before draft day?
Take Aaron Rogers for example...how many of the talking heads, spouting their 20-20 hindsight today, believed Rogers was going to be a top QB before the 2005 draft? 23 teams passed on picking Aaron Rogers in the first round as he dropped down the draft board. Yet today, talking heads want you to believe they would have taken Aaron Rogers with the 3rd pick in the 2005 draft. There were questions about Rogers, well founded too.
I wonder how many realize, Aaron Rogers was worse than Colt McCoy at the end of his second season with the Packers. Had Aaron Rogers been picked by the Browns at #3 of the 2005 draft, the radio talking heads here would have been criticizing the Browns front office for picking Rogers and they would be declaring him a "bust".
But Rogers was chosen by the Packers, who were much more patient with Rogers...surely more patient than Cleveland's radio and tv talking heads. Rogers began to show signs that he might be the QB the Packers front office thought he would be, in the "12th" game of his 3rd season. It was not a game that Rogers started either...he relieved Favre and did a good job bringing the Packers back but ultimately the Packers lost the game.
The team that Rogers was playing on, in his 3rd season with the Packers...they were loaded with talent, which gave Rogers every advantage he needed to succeed...they were 13-3 and missed going to the Super Bowl losing to the Giants in OT of the NFC Championship game...Favre's last game as a Packer.
In Roger's 4th season with the Packers, he finally became the QB the Packers front office thought he would be when the drafted him with the 24th pick of the 1st round of the 2005 draft...the draft where the Browns passed on Aaron Rogers to draft Braylon Edwards.
Any of the radio talking heads or the fans that follow them have that much patience?...Patience enough to wait until a 1st round picks 4th season before making him the starter?
BTW, those talking heads declaring they would have picked Rogers over Braylon Edwards...they are "lying".
Obviously, hindsight is still 20-20 in Cleveland.
Patience! +1 
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Quote:
Huh?
my reaction, too.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,799 Likes: 158
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,799 Likes: 158 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Here's why, Carr, Ramsey Harrington, Leftwich, Boller, Grossman, Losman, A. Smith, Campbell, Vince Young, and Leinart, have something in common.
Arm Strength
And where did that get them in the NFL.. big arms don't mean success.. Derrick Anderson has one of the biggest arms ever to put on a Browns Uni.. how did that work out long term?
Arm strength is important, you need enough to make the throws required in whatever system your in. But that's it. the rest is instinct and smarts and most of all, the right system with the right guys surrounding you.,
Maybe the dumbest argument ever
Not only that but I believe Spergeon Wynn had the strongest arm of all of them..So I am not sure what any of that means.
LOL I keep forgetting about Wynns arm.. yikes that guy had a CANNON LOL
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979 Likes: 83
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979 Likes: 83 |
It means you don't just go get another Spurgeon Wynn because he has arm strength, but any of those guys, any of them even JP losman, would have been worth something because even if it is a gamble you have to have a qb who can put the ball all over the field.
If the other teams can exploit that your team can't deliver a pass upfield or overtop of a pass rush and beat them deep, then you will have no success.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
Al Davis is back from the dead.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum 1st round quarterbacks the Browns
have passed on since 2000
|
|
