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#602946 07/06/11 10:41 PM
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I watched this documentary on HBO the other night, and I have to say it made my blood boil. The one story that really got me was about a 19 year old girl who worked for Halliburton.

She was offered a position in Iraq, and she was reluctant to take it unless she would be bunking with other women. The company promised her women's only quarters with separate bathrooms; when she got there she was bunked with a bunch of men. The harassment started immediately, and she reported it to no avail. She was brutally gang raped eventually, and had to have reconstructive surgery it was so bad.

To make a long story short, the contract she signed with Halliburton included a clause that she would agree that any grievance would be handled in private arbitration rather than taking the story public in a court case. These private arbitrations are handled by arbitration companies who do business with the big companies, and accordingly, they rule in favor of the business about 95% of the time. Worse, they prevent any accountability or bad PR for these incidents as the findings are supposed to remain sealed.

Original story: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=3977702&page=1

This woman has had to fight for 4+ years, and she finally will have her day in court this summer.

I have to admit complete ignorance to these arbitration clauses, which isn't good b/c I know I've signed stuff with them in it. I don't believe this arbitration system should be allowed, especially for large criminal offenses. I could see not allowing everyone to sue b/c their car got dinged by another employee or another employee stole your stapler, but rape after she had repeatedly reported serious harassment to company officials?

Oh yeah, a private security company administered a rape kit, and then gave it to Halliburton security. Wonder if you can guess what happened to it?

Last edited by tjs7; 07/06/11 10:47 PM.
tjs7 #602947 07/06/11 10:45 PM
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Not sure where this is headed - but as to the title of the thread: I make my own coffee, at home. I have one of those "fancy" coffee makers that I can set the timer on, and it's brewed before I get up. Then I pour a cup. And since I don't like coffee super hot, I put a few ice cubes in it. Let them melt, then I drink it.

archbolddawg #602948 07/06/11 10:46 PM
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Sorry, it was the title of a documentary. It is a little misleading. I will change the title.

archbolddawg #602949 07/07/11 08:42 AM
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If I'm not mistaken, it's a documentary about atrocious legal battles in America.... the title coming from the absurd McDonald's hot coffee ruling.


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PrplPplEater #602950 07/07/11 08:43 AM
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Quote:

If I'm not mistaken, it's a documentary about atrocious legal battles in America.... the title coming from the absurd McDonald's hot coffee ruling.




Everyone has their own opinion, but I have known several people who thought the whole McDonald's thing absurd, but once they learned the facts of the case, etc., they strongly believed the lady should have won like she did.

JMHO


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That's fine.... I call them completely absurd.

JMHO.


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PrplPplEater #602952 07/07/11 08:50 AM
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That's fine.... I call them completely absurd.

JMHO.




You're completely absurd.


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You aren't the first to tell me that, probably not the last, either


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Quote:

Quote:

If I'm not mistaken, it's a documentary about atrocious legal battles in America.... the title coming from the absurd McDonald's hot coffee ruling.




Everyone has their own opinion, but I have known several people who thought the whole McDonald's thing absurd, but once they learned the facts of the case, etc., they strongly believed the lady should have won like she did.

JMHO



That is typically the case because these juries tend to be made up of people just like you and me who aren't total idiots and they generally have a pretty decent reason for deciding the way they did.. It's not always a "let's just stick to the big corporation" mentality...


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I haven't seen it yet, but my Dad has, and he said the whole part on the Chamber of Commerce's pushing judge candidates was what really made his blood boil.


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Quote:

Quote:

If I'm not mistaken, it's a documentary about atrocious legal battles in America.... the title coming from the absurd McDonald's hot coffee ruling.




Everyone!has their own opinion, but I have known several people who thought the whole McDonald's thing absurd, but once they learned the facts of the case, etc., they strongly believed the lady should have won like she did.

JMHO




A few months back this case came up in a work meeting....the people that were calling it absurd turned out to not know any details other than "lady spilled coffee in her lap and sued for millions". I brought up the wiki page and reviewed the details and most flipped their opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants

Burn incidentOn February 27, 1992, Stella Liebeck, a 79-year-old woman from Albuquerque, New Mexico, ordered a 49-cent cup of coffee from the drive-through window of a local McDonald's restaurant. Liebeck was in the passenger's seat of her Ford Probe, and her nephew Chris parked the car so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. Liebeck placed the coffee cup between her knees and pulled the far side of the lid toward her to remove it. In the process, she spilled the entire cup of coffee on her lap.[10] Liebeck was wearing cotton sweatpants; they absorbed the coffee and held it against her skin, scalding her thighs, buttocks, and groin.[11] Liebeck was taken to the hospital, where it was determined that she had suffered third-degree burns on six percent of her skin and lesser burns over sixteen percent.[12] She remained in the hospital for eight days while she underwent skin grafting. During this period, Liebeck lost 20 pounds (9 kg, nearly 20% of her body weight), reducing her down to 83 pounds (38 kg).[13] Two years of medical treatment followed.

[edit] Settlement offersLiebeck sought to settle with McDonald's for $20,000 to cover her actual and anticipated expenses. Her past medical expenses were $10,500; her anticipated future medical expenses were approximately $2,500; and her loss of income was approximately $5,000 for a total of approximately $18,000.[14] Instead, the company offered only $800. When McDonald's refused to raise its offer, Liebeck retained Texas attorney Reed Morgan. Morgan filed suit in New Mexico District Court accusing McDonald's of "gross negligence" for selling coffee that was "unreasonably dangerous" and "defectively manufactured". McDonald's refused Morgan's offer to settle for $90,000.[5] Morgan offered to settle for $300,000, and a mediator suggested $225,000 just before trial, but McDonald's refused these final pre-trial attempts to settle.[5]

[edit] Trial and verdictThe trial took place from August 8–17, 1994, before Judge Robert H. Scott.[15] During the case, Liebeck's attorneys discovered that McDonald's required franchises to serve coffee at 180–190 °F (82–88 °C). At that temperature, the coffee would cause a third-degree burn in two to seven seconds. Stella Liebeck's attorney argued that coffee should never be served hotter than 140 °F (60 °C), and that a number of other establishments served coffee at a substantially lower temperature than McDonald's. Liebeck's lawyers presented the jury with evidence that 180 °F (82 °C) coffee like that McDonald’s served may produce third-degree burns (where skin grafting is necessary) in about 12 to 15 seconds. Lowering the temperature to 160 °F (71 °C) would increase the time for the coffee to produce such a burn to 20 seconds. (A British court later rejected this argument as scientifically false finding that 149 °F (65 °C) liquid could cause deep tissue damage in only two seconds.[16]) Liebeck's attorneys argued that these extra seconds could provide adequate time to remove the coffee from exposed skin, thereby preventing many burns. McDonald's claimed that the reason for serving such hot coffee in its drive-through windows was that those who purchased the coffee typically were commuters who wanted to drive a distance with the coffee; the high initial temperature would keep the coffee hot during the trip.[5] However, this contradicts the company's own research that showed customers actually intend to consume the coffee while driving to their destination.[17]

Other documents obtained from McDonald's showed that from 1982 to 1992 the company had received more than 700 reports of people burned by McDonald's coffee to varying degrees of severity, and had settled claims arising from scalding injuries for more than $500,000.[5] McDonald's quality control manager, Christopher Appleton, testified that this number of injuries was insufficient to cause the company to evaluate its practices. He argued that all foods hotter than 130 °F (54 °C) constituted a burn hazard, and that restaurants had more pressing dangers to warn about. The plaintiffs argued that Appleton conceded that McDonald's coffee would burn the mouth and throat if consumed when served.[18]

A twelve-person jury reached its verdict on August 18, 1994.[15] Applying the principles of comparative negligence, the jury found that McDonald's was 80% responsible for the incident and Liebeck was 20% at fault. Though there was a warning on the coffee cup, the jury decided that the warning was neither large enough nor sufficient. They awarded Liebeck US$200,000 in compensatory damages, which was then reduced by 20% to $160,000. In addition, they awarded her $2.7 million in punitive damages. The jurors apparently arrived at this figure from Morgan's suggestion to penalize McDonald's for one or two days' worth of coffee revenues, which were about $1.35 million per day.[5] The judge reduced punitive damages to $480,000, three times the compensatory amount, for a total of $640,000. The decision was appealed by both McDonald's and Liebeck in December 1994, but the parties settled out of court for an undisclosed amount less than $600,000.[19]


She originally only wanted enough money to cover her medical expenses for the 3rd degree burns and lost wages. McDonalds lowballed her with an $800 offer. Come on....they are a billion dollar company and they can't find it in their pockets to pay for a lady's medical bills? Again.....re-read the part about 6% of her body had 3rd degree burns and skin grafts were needed to repair it. She spents weeks in the hospital. Do you acutally think you'd (not pointing to anyone specicfically) just eat all the cost yourself?


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Punchsmack #602957 07/07/11 09:23 AM
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Since this thread is likely to turn into a "tort reform" thread, I guess I'll say my $0.02.

Everyone talks about ending frivolous lawsuits. And I agree. Frivolous lawsuits should be discouraged.

The problem is, the way that's used to combat them is to put caps on tort verdicts. And, by doing that, you're saying "your injuries (or your life or the life of a loved one) is only worth x."

So, imagine (god forbid) your child is killed or injured seriously and you bring suit. Because of tort reform statutes, you are only going to be able to recover a sum certain.

Say your kid is 6 and you are able to recover "only" a million dollars. Is that going to be enough to cover your child, with possibly major medical expenses, for the rest of his/her life?

And who are those legislators to say my child's life is only worth that much?

I think a lot of people look at lawsuits the way they look at congressmen and lawyers.

"Everyone else's are bad, but mine is good." Until they file a lawsuit and are burned by tort reform.

And, there are already rules in place regarding frivolous lawsuits. If an attorney signs his or her name to a lawsuit and it's totally frivolous, there is the possibility of sanctions.

And, we're basing a lot of this on the cases that make it into the media. A lot of "frivolous" lawsuits are dismissed early, IMO, and never get the chance to make it to the papers.

Like I've said before, everyone has their own opinions, and that's fine. My opinion is that "frivolous lawsuits" do exist, but the scope and quantity is greatly overestimated.

JMHO


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Punchsmack #602958 07/07/11 09:25 AM
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That's what you get for wearing sweat pants in public.......

I bet she was fat too......


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Punchsmack #602959 07/07/11 09:26 AM
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I never would have put a hot cup of coffee between my knees to begin with.


It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
Tyler_Derden #602960 07/07/11 09:27 AM
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I for one have never put a hot liquid between my legs to remove the lid, always off to the side. Spilled enough cold or luke warm liquids to know the chances of spillage are higher than normal, especially with those coffee lids.


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I see your point 79... my biggest complaint with lawsuits are the class action suits where an attorney gathers up 10,000 people to sue XYZ drug company for something and in the end, wins a $6,000,000 judgement against the drug company and after whatever expenses and what not are taken out the lawyer keeps $3 million and each of the people who were wronged get a check for $3.50..


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I agree 100%. The class action ones are usually lawyers looking for a payday.

The biggest problem class actions used to be against cruise lines. If the class won, the cruise line would pay each of the people in, guess what, cruise line coupons and vouchers. Meanwhile, the attorneys would get cash.

One judge finally said that however the cruise lines pay the normal people would be how the attorneys would get paid, too. So, the attorneys received millions of dollars in cruise line vouchers instead of cash.


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Punchsmack #602963 07/07/11 09:54 AM
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A good read... it reinforces my beliefs that the ruling is absurd.


In my opinion, at no point did McDonald's do anything to make them liable for that woman burning herself due to her own choices, negligence, and actions.
Sure, it's quite regrettable and unfortunate that she was burned to the degree that she was, but that isn't the restaurant's fault.


I'm not sure if this is the case that I was thinking about, though... I thought the woman was awarded millions of dollars.


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The only issue I see was the temperature of the coffee. Far too hot.


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Heard all this before and I still think it's crap.

I'm sorry, but if you are dumb enough to spill hot coffee into your crotch it is not my fault for handing you the cup. Now if I hand the cup to a three-year-old, OK that's My Fault.

McD's coffee is 10-20% hotter than average, though there is no standards committee on how hot coffee should be. You can see the steam coming off of it, and feel the heat on your hand through the cup, these should provide some clue.

That she was fairly severely injured really has nothing to do with who was at fault, neither does ability to pay nor how much she was asking for.

Where's the warning label on a piano that says not to drop it on your foot?

DawgMichelle #602966 07/07/11 10:34 AM
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I can *almost* agree with that, but the thing that I keep coming back to is that it is irrelevant what the temperature is.... as a person that has reached adulthood (or even pre-teen status), you inherently KNOW that hot is hot, and that a hot liquid WILL scald you. Thus, it is up to you to take measures to ensure that you do not put yourself in a position to scald yourself when you are handling hot liquids. The whole thing is a big, fat case of one person blaming someone else and holding them responsible for their own misguided actions... "I screwed up.. You're gonna pay for that!".


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I have read the facts and it still doesn't change my opinion.

What McDonalds can't say in court is that the reason they served coffee at 180 degrees was because it made BETTER coffee. But the problem is, that is a subjective term. The fact still remained that McDonalds was KNOWN for having very hot coffee. It was one of the reasons people came to them. It was common knowledge. Yet this person still put the cup BETWEEN her legs. Now Personally...I would have sued over the the deffective cup and cap or the deffective application of them. But Hot coffee??? I am sorry....People chose McDonalds coffee OVER others who brewed at a lower temperature.....because it was BETTER........SO WHAT that Burger King brews at 160.....Good for Them.....She could have gone to Burger King....or somewhere else for her Coffee...but she didn't.....they went to McDonalds. They weren't FORCED to...

Now were McDonalds total douchebags for only offering $800????....sure.... But that doesn't mean that this case was all right and just.


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Quote:

I have read the facts and it still doesn't change my opinion.

What McDonalds can't say in court is that the reason they served coffee at 180 degrees was because it made BETTER coffee. But the problem is, that is a subjective term. The fact still remained that McDonalds was KNOWN for having very hot coffee. It was one of the reasons people came to them. It was common knowledge. Yet this person still put the cup BETWEEN her legs. Now Personally...I would have sued over the the deffective cup and cap or the deffective application of them. But Hot coffee??? I am sorry....People chose McDonalds coffee OVER others who brewed at a lower temperature.....because it was BETTER........SO WHAT that Burger King brews at 160.....Good for Them.....She could have gone to Burger King....or somewhere else for her Coffee...but she didn't.....they went to McDonalds. They weren't FORCED to...

Now were McDonalds total douchebags for only offering $800????....sure.... But that doesn't mean that this case was all right and just.




You just said that McDonald's wasn't liable, so why are they wrong for offering $800.

Sometimes it seems that people think that if a company has billions of dollars, they should pay regardless of liability simply because they can afford it.

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Well, I'm sure they covered the lid and cup and also how this lady may not have known McDonalds was known to serve hotter coffee than everyone else (I can honestly state that I didn't know that then).

In my mind they shouldn't have been serving it that hot. Yes, she was a dumbass for putting in her lap to begin with.....but if she didn't know it was "over hot", she wouldn't have figured to take that precaution. And maybe she thought it was a risky move and she could have been burned....but 3rd degree burns? I would assume if I spilled hot tea or coffee on my arm it would hurt....but not put in the hospital for 3 weeks and require skin grafts.

Ultimately, a jury of her peers sided with her. They picked the amount based on the facts, how they knew hundreds of other people were getting burned by their "over-hot" coffee, that maybe the jury saw this as a way to stop these burnings in the future and probably as punishment as to how McDonalds kept lowballing her when this could have been resolved if they paid her the $20g to begin with (you know the lawyer did the...."you got pulled from your jobs and family and clogged up the legal system for all these days because they couldn't just write a check to cover the lady's medical expenses).

I would also like to know how many of the people here calling her a dumbass, saying she deserved to be burned and how she shouldn't have received a dime would react if you had $20,000 worth of medical bills because you were hurt in a similar situation (not necessarily with hot coffee...but something else). Again, I already stated I didn't know McDonalds served "over hot" coffee.


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That's right...I don't think they are liable....that doesn't mean they couldn't do a little good thing, get a little good PR and help the lady out...But I don't think they should cover her entire medical expenses plus her losses in wages over her stupidity.


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PETE314 #602971 07/07/11 11:33 AM
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That's right...I don't think they are liable....that doesn't mean they couldn't do a little good thing, get a little good PR and help the lady out...But I don't think they should cover her entire medical expenses plus her losses in wages over her stupidity.




You are entitled to your opinion. Just remember, though, that if you're ever injured in some sort of accident, would you want damages and lost wages denied to you because there's the argument that it was your fault?

I've seen it several times myself. Kind of the "when it happens to other people, they shouldn't recover, but if it happens to me, I should recover millions."


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Quote:

Well, I'm sure they covered the lid and cup and also how this lady may not have known McDonalds was known to serve hotter coffee than everyone else (I can honestly state that I didn't know that then).



I'm not even a coffe drinker and I knew that. Just for refference sake...the IDEAL extraction temperature for brewing coffee is between 190 and 205 degrees

Quote:

Yes, she was a dumbass for putting in her lap to begin with


Boom....end of discussion


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The thing that I don't understand is this....

If coffee is supposed to be hot and everyone knows it can burn your skin enough that is could send you to the hospital for 3 weeks in the burn unit......why is it a beverage that supposed to be poured in your mouth seconds after you purchase it?

Don't those two things not match? Drinkable liquid upon purchase and "over hot" liquid that will severely burn you.

Shouldn't coffee be served hot enough to drink right away? And if it's too hot, should it be mentioned to not attempt to consume said beverage for at least 5 minutes?

I'm not a tea or coffee drinker so I can honestly say, I don't know what the standards are when you all order this stuff at a restuarant, pour it at work, or get it in a drive-thru.


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PETE314 #602974 07/07/11 11:36 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

Yes, she was a dumbass for putting in her lap to begin with


Boom....end of discussion




So, in other words, so long as you contribute any amount to the accident, you should not be able to recover?

What if you're talking on your cell phone while driving, and you make a yellow light. But, you're t-boned by someone else on a cell phone who ran the red light.

If I can prove that, if you weren't talking on the phone, you would have seen the other car coming and could have avoided the accident, does that mean you should recover zero?


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This is why I drink iced diet Coke.

PETE314 #602976 07/07/11 11:39 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

Well, I'm sure they covered the lid and cup and also how this lady may not have known McDonalds was known to serve hotter coffee than everyone else (I can honestly state that I didn't know that then).



I'm not even a coffe drinker and I knew that. Just for refference sake...the IDEAL extraction temperature for brewing coffee is between 190 and 205 degrees

Quote:

Yes, she was a dumbass for putting in her lap to begin with


Boom....end of discussion




You knew McDonalds served over hot coffee because someone told you. Nobody ever told me...and this lady might not have been told either. Just becuase you know doesn't mean everyone else should know.

And for the "boom" comment.....again, a jury of her peers awarded damages. I'm not sure how it can be so clear cut. They said McDonalds shouldn't have been serving it that hot...and you call her a dumbass. That's a big black and white difference.


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Punchsmack #602977 07/07/11 11:43 AM
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Quote:

Shouldn't coffee be served hot enough to drink right away? And if it's too hot, should it be mentioned to not attempt to consume said beverage for at least 5 minutes?




Yes, coffee should be buy & drink, imo. Nothing worse than having to wait 15 minutes for it to cool off...and the kicker is, you keep TESTING it and burning your mouth.


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You know what, I have NEVER, looked to sue ANYONE over any accident or injury I have ever received(including broken bones and others that have been costly)....so take your sanctimonious attitude and stuff it. Mainly because it is an ACCIDENT. Accidents happen. This is LIFE. Life is not neat and ordered and it is not always fair...

Now if I thought there was malice or GROSS negligence behind the other party....that is another story...but what malice is there in serving Hot coffee because it makes a better product???? I don't see gross negligence either unless of course as I said before the cup and cap system are faulty. They had warning labels on the cups and caps that adhered to the laws.(whether or not the jury felt they were big enough is not releveant...they were legal) Eventually at some point, we do have to take responsibility of our own actions. And frankly She could have taken MANY actions that would have prevented this. The first and forenost....Not putting the cup between her legs.

The closest I have ever come to suing anyone is when the Jewelry store lost my wife's(then fiance) engagement ring when we sent it in to get the setting tightened. and they balked and stalled on a replacement. I don't believe a case could have been made that it was our fault???


I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...

What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
Punchsmack #602979 07/07/11 11:51 AM
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You knew McDonalds served over hot coffee because someone told you. Nobody ever told me...and this lady might not have been told either. Just becuase you know doesn't mean everyone else should know.



I used to go to this place that had great chili and one of the things they put in it was a small amount of peanut butter.. if somebody with a peanut allergy ate it, they could die.. but it looked like normal chili and EVERYBODY in town knew it had peanut butter in it... therefore if you were passing through town or visiting, you should know that too.

(This particular place had big signs, warnings on the menu and the waitress would tell you it had peanut butter in it if she didn't know you so it wasn't an issue but because their product was DIFFERENT than normal in a way that could harm people, they took the extra precaution, as they should)


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Punchsmack #602980 07/07/11 11:53 AM
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and you call her a dumbass.


No....YOU called her a dumbass...I was quoting you....

Yes a jury awarded her the money...does that mean they were right???? That Justice was truly done???? That OJ and Casey really didn't do it???


I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...

What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
DCDAWGFAN #602981 07/07/11 11:55 AM
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I don't know why anyone needs to warn me that coffee is HOT. I wouldn't want to spill Burger King coffee all over me, either, even if 40 degrees cooler.

On my 9th birthday I was taken to the emergency room for a third degree coffee burn. We didn't sue anyone. The restaurant offered us gift certificates and to pay my ER bills. Good enough.


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DawgMichelle #602982 07/07/11 11:59 AM
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The restaurant offered us gift certificates and to pay my ER bills. Good enough.



All this woman wanted was her medical bills paid and a few bucks for missing work.. and that was good enough for her too, but McDonalds said no... so where is the difference?


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PETE314 #602983 07/07/11 12:05 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

and you call her a dumbass.


No....YOU called her a dumbass...I was quoting you....

Yes a jury awarded her the money...does that mean they were right???? That Justice was truly done???? That OJ and Casey really didn't do it???




Sorry, I was paraphrasing the "dumbass" comment. You or other people implied she was dumb and I even implied that also. So I got lost with what you did or didn't call her.

Well, justice can be defined what we all think should happen in the real world or as defined as what the court system says it is (jury of peers using specific rules of what can be brought in as evidence and how the lawyers can ask questions....etc). In our court system, justice was served. In the real world, it was way too much (2.7 million)....but eventually that was brought down to a $600,000~. I would argue they should pay for the medical bills and lost wages...and nothing else. So yes, $600,000 was crazy.

I got food poisoning a few times at restaurants. Two incidents were from food that could be tainted and I assumed some risk (sushi and hollandaise) and the other was from a burger I ordered as medium well. In all those situations, should the restaurant pay medical bills, offer a gift certificate, or do nothing?

- and ya, I went to the ER with my wife for the hollandaise incident because we were really nervous about dying. We were exploding from every end for 11 straight hours. And the bill was about $500 for each of us. The place ended up giving us $200 in gift certificates....we could have pushed for more but we didn't. Not sure if we would have lost or won.


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DCDAWGFAN #602984 07/07/11 12:08 PM
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I'm not saying there's a difference, really...only that the place I was injured didn't have to pay as they weren't at fault (and we didn't expect them to).


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archbolddawg #602985 07/07/11 12:41 PM
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Not sure where this is headed - but as to the title of the thread: I make my own coffee, at home. I have one of those "fancy" coffee makers that I can set the timer on, and it's brewed before I get up. Then I pour a cup. And since I don't like coffee super hot, I put a few ice cubes in it. Let them melt, then I drink it.




Looks like I was ahead of the discussion on this one - it IS about coffee temperature!!

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