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Someone had to start it  And I want to do this anyway. Trade out of 6 to the mid teens, get a WR, acquire an extra 1st round pick for next year, use that first to get back into the late first and grab one of the defensive ends. I want two 1st rounders this year but I don't want to give up next year's picks to do it. I'd rather get those picks from someone else to do it.
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I want to do exactly what we did this year, and that's grab a great player with our first round pick.
I don't want a couple of pretty goods ...... I want a great player who will dominate for years and years to come.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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It's not that easy to do.
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I've never understood the obsession many have with trading down. I get the draft is our "Super Bowl" and the more picks the merrier come draft day, but at the this point in time we need elite talent (yes, I already know the draft is a crapshoot, nothing is guaranteed). We cannot afford to miss on our first round, possibly even second round picks at this critical juncture. Our best chance at top-notch talent is staying put at #6.
I'll take a pass on the trade down scenario. Take BPA and be done with it.
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Quote:
I want to do exactly what we did this year, and that's grab a great player with our first round pick.
I don't want a couple of pretty goods ...... I want a great player who will dominate for years and years to come.
Exactly 
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No team will have any desire to trade up to the Browns' pick unless it is for Amukamara. He's the only guy who could possibly be worth it. And really, I don't have a desire to trade down. The Browns need a stud.
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Quote:
I don't want a couple of pretty goods ...... I want a great player who will dominate for years and years to come.
I understand what you're saying, but I think Heckert, with any one of the 32 picks in the first round, would get a GREAT player, not a "pretty good" player. I think only boneheads like Al Davis could manage to just get "pretty good" in this draft.
This is an issue I can look at from the middle and see pros and cons.
Sure, the chances are the BEST guy w/ the most potential for immediate impact would be there at pick # 6.
But IF (yes, I know it's not that easy) we found a team to trade with, tell me the thought of landing 2 studs in the first doesn't sound awesome.
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Last year we had Joe Haden sitting there waiting for us.
Many were screaming for us to trade down and collect more picks. Some national pundits suggested that Haden wasn't worth our pick. They questioned his speed. They doubted whether or not he could be a great player in the NFL.
Man, it was almost like they were trying to talk us into trading down. lol
We stayed put, and grabbed Haden.
Now .... a year later and people are talking about Haden as possibly the best young CB in the AFC behind Revis.
We need cornerstones like Haden to build this team. We need bedrock to build upon. That's all I'm trying to say. Stay put and grab a GREAT player instead of trading down and taking your chances. I trust Heckert to get us a great player at 6.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I think the problem with the "1 great" over "multiple good" players is a combination of what is being expressed in the other thread and generally just looking at the league.
You can find even a couple players on EVERY team that could start for any other team. For us it's Joe Thomas, Josh Cribbs, and a few others. The problem is as long as we hit on the first few picks, then we could get 2 or 3 starters.
But, if you believe in Heckert being able to hit on the top of the draft, then by dropping 10 picks or so we could still get another low second or high third? That could equal another starter, it could be a solid Right Tackle or even a starting D-Tackle / Linebacker for our 4-3 ...
If you look at Green Bay, yes they have a few solid 1st rounders on their team. But they also have a lot of 2nds and 3rds as top players as well. I'm not arguing entirely for it, it would depend on the deal itself for the trade down I suppose. But ... ESPECIALLY if we trust our front offices drafting ability, then we really do have to consider draft picks as gold.
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It's not about WHERE you draft, it's WHO you draft.
I have enough faith in Heckert that if we can get multiple first and second day picks we can do some things, just like last year.
The best way to do that without giving up any players we covet is to trade down.
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Take one of the top 6. Trade down in the second if possible. If not, no biggie, take the BPA. That's my ideal "trade down" scenario.
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Quote:
Quote:
I want to do exactly what we did this year, and that's grab a great player with our first round pick.
I don't want a couple of pretty goods ...... I want a great player who will dominate for years and years to come.
Exactly
who's better Mack or Haden? who will dominate for a longer period of time?
impossible to tell, but they both look like hits the past 2 years in the 1st round. 1 from a trade-down, 1 from staying high.
#gmstrong
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Usually I'm the first one to say trade down. And I still am...unless there is a rookie wage scale put in place.
The main reason I always want to trade down is because we are usually drafting in the top part of the draft. Meaning we will have to pay an exorbitant amount of money to an unproven player. If there is a rookie wage scale then trading down isn't necessary.
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and who exactly is worth trading up for? There is no QB like Luck or Bradford teams want and if there was Carolina would take him. So that leaves Peterson and Green who both will most likely be selected before our pick. So who exactly is a team going to trade up for again?
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Quote:
It's not about WHERE you draft, it's WHO you draft.
I have enough faith in Heckert that if we can get multiple first and second day picks we can do some things, just like last year.
The best way to do that without giving up any players we covet is to trade down.
this is the Official Throw Long wish list since Feb 7 2011, for Feb 8 2011
Draft would be over, if would have went like this
1 traded down to mid 1st, picked up a mid 3rd round this year in the 2011
1, Akeem Ayers, Olb, Ucla, ( I think the best player in the draft) ok one of many
2. Leonard Hankerson, Wr Miami, I think the best player in the draft at that position, ok one of many
3a ( time for need filling) Marvin Austin Dt, a Dt with the mix of Big, and mobile, an athlete, one of the best on the D line, ( ok one of many
3b, ( more need filling) Jerrell Powe, Dt, A DT, with the abilty to plug the middle and improve the team, maybe? one of the best on D lline, (ok one of many)
4, Ross Homan, Olb, Oh St. Not just a homer Buckeye pick, I think the guy is a player, One of the best possible picks for the 4th round, ( ok one of many)
5 James Brewer OT indiana, Some folks want to improve the O line, more than I do, this guy could do it, Moffit ( touted by others probably wont be there) When was the last time the Browns hit on a 5th round pick anyway? seriously oh my gosh WHEN?
6a, Wayne Daniels TCU Olb, possible difference maker, a pass rusher, a turnover producer, a tackler.
6b, just two picks later, Markus White De FSU, Oh my a 6th rounder I really think can play, and the 5th or 6th pass rusher selected on the weekend.
What you have here would be a significant investment in the front 7,
7 Great players, I beleive it! You cant hit on everybody, look at Larry Asante.
Given with what they did with the db's last year, to do this with the front 7 this year would really allow the team to take the field with an advantage on defense.
I really think the top 2 players are the best 2 players in the draft. All you have to do is find some team to let you move down to around pick 15-18 and get a pick in the 3rd, it is not too high of a price.
What changed my mind, that defense is the way to go?
since 1991 the Browns have had 2 years with a big advantage in the plus minus turnover ratio. When they did they had 2 things, An accurate quarterback and a pass rusher with alot of sacks.
Colt McCoy , Check, Pass rusher? ?
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I want to do exactly what we did this year, and that's grab a great player with our first round pick.
I don't want a couple of pretty goods ...... I want a great player who will dominate for years and years to come.
Exactly
who's better Mack or Haden? who will dominate for a longer period of time?
impossible to tell, but they both look like hits the past 2 years in the 1st round. 1 from a trade-down, 1 from staying high.
Both are promising players that have made significant contributions to the Browns. However, if I have to choose one over the other, I choose Haden all day long. Nothig against Mack, as I thing he is very solid. My belief is that this team needs difference makers. Haden can make game changing plays that can equate to wins, Mack is luxury (not discrediting his ability), but won't win us any games. ( no need to break down blocking schemes and QB protection that opens up the field, I get it. I want playmakers!)
I am trilled to have both on our team. I'm just not a fan of a trade down scenario at this point in time.
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The draft is all abot making the right choices in rounds 1 to 3, some years you can say rounds 1 to 4. Beyond that drops off and becomes more of a risk/reward gamble and input that catches the eye of the scout.
You can't miss in rounds 1 and 2, and have to reasonable sucess in rounds 3 and 4.
Look at the Browns, for every David Vikune and Travis Wilson, Pittsburgh gets Lamar Woodley and Mike Wallace. Or Issac Sowells when Elvis Dumerville is on the board.
For all the talk of first rounders, a teams sucess or failure depends on the sucess in the other rounds.
The Patriots have made an art form of trading down and picking up a lot of picks in round 2. That is their value point for signing of a player versus their ability to contribute and become a starter.
First rounders get all the boom or bust hype, and the cost of a failed top 10 pick is noteworthy, but if we are only following that, we are missing the point.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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I'm good with it as long as we don't give it up for a Rams mediocre defensive lineman, safety, and 3rd string qb.
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I think Heckert, unless he has somebody spotted in later rounds AND/OR we have filled a need with a really solid FA pickup, or has picked up picks via trades (lot of if's, I know), will pursue the pick we have when it should happen. Not really in favor of trading down our first. If we are retooling, I favor a solid "bird in the hand" over two "so-so" players in the bush. Surer thing over more projects. Life without Haden would have been much worse this year IMO. I can see scenarios where traded players for more picks will let Heckert and MH have even greater impact. But I may be wrong. Idea IS to draft players for the longer haul. We have a lot of holes to create, fill, and improve. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Like your choices, Throw Long. Especially like some Buckeyes here. I think part of the re-tooling will be at LB especially. I think I read it here, and I am not sure of this, but I believe somebody talked about a main success and priority Heckert has shown in the past is to rebuild both lines first or regularly picking these guys. A real defensive lineman like Raji the Nimble or a Suh would be valuable in a 4-3. But not sure how high one goes if Heckert for these linemen. Anybody have a history of his picks and success in this area. I may not be remembering what I believe is right correctly. Hope we draft well.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Quote:
The Patriots have made an art form of trading down and picking up a lot of picks in round 2. That is their value point for signing of a player versus their ability to contribute and become a starter.
It's funny you mention the Patriots because I am hoping this year might be a year they want to move up. Hoping they feel they need to find a replacement for Moss. IF Aj Green is on the board and although I would love to have the guys Talents here in North Beach, The thought of getting the #17 and 28 Pick plus having our own 37 is so enticing. NE would still also have the 34 and their pick in round 2. With those picks I would go JJ Watt and Cameron Heyward. Two relentless High Motor D Ends for our new 4-3. Then Go Derek Sherrod, Demarcus Love, Rahim Moore, Aaron Williams or Jimmy Smith in Round 2. I know we need a receiver, but after Green and Jones the talent Pool evens out significantly. A D Front of Watt, Rogers, Rubin and Heyward would cause Havoc.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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I agree.
Trading down (especially if Green is not there - not that I'm necessarily on his bandwagon) would be the best decision in the draft.
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Not only is that interesting, but I think it would be worth it to try and pry away their #33 overall. With the way that the draft is set up ... going on 3 days now, we would have the whole overnight to reset our board, as well as maybe deal that #33 overall to a desperate team.
Not that I am for trading away the entire draft, but let's say we can't get their 2 firsts ... lets say we trade the #6 for the #17 and the #33. Then Trade the #33 for something in the 40's? and an extra third? You would end up having 1 later first in exchange for an additional 2nd and 3rd ... which could equal one more monster on the dline and either a linebacker or a right tackle.
I think those break points represent more value just because the break is before it and people tend to get crazy. Even if one team gets crazy then you can cash in.
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Quote:
Mack is luxury (not discrediting his ability), but won't win us any games. ( no need to break down blocking schemes and QB protection that opens up the field, I get it. I want playmakers!)
I know we are 99% in agreement here, but I wanted to note that the Steelers just lost the superbowl because their OC was out of the game (the pick-6 happened when their backup OC was bulldozed into Ben and he had to throw a wobbler off his back foot).
my main point with that is you don't always see that the center is a difference maker, but the best ones most certainly are.
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I agree.
Trading down (especially if Green is not there - not that I'm necessarily on his bandwagon) would be the best decision in the draft.
Green being there may be our only chance to trade down.
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The problem is most of the players, if not all, who will be available when we pick play a position of need for us. And they will also be the best player available.
Hard to pass that up.
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5 James Brewer OT indiana, Some folks want to improve the O line, more than I do, this guy could do it, Moffit ( touted by others probably wont be there) When was the last time the Browns hit on a 5th round pick anyway? seriously oh my gosh WHEN?
I would be very surprised (and happy) if we were able to get him in the fifth round. I'd guess he's a 3rd round / early 4th round guy.
And to answer your question
2010: Larry Asante (messed up the handling more than the pick)
2009: no pick
2008: no pick
2007: Brandon McDonald (hit)
2006: Jerome Harrison (hit)
2005: David McMillan (awful... next DE was Trent Cole 7 picks later)
2004: Amon Gordon (still in league)
2003: Ryan Pontbriand, Michael Lehan (pretty good round 5)
2002: Andra Davis (hit)
2001: Jeremiah Pharms (maybe hoping for an acquittal?)
2000: Anthony Malbrough, Lamar Chapman (they were CBs. I don't remember them at all)
1999: Darrin Chiaverini (meh)
Since 2002 I'd say overall that's a pretty good hit rate... when they actually draft a player.
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I don't care if we get less value than what the value chart says, if we can trade down for extra picks I'm all over it.
Extra picks are extra picks with Heckert running the show.
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Quote:
I don't care if we get less value than what the value chart says, if we can trade down for extra picks I'm all over it.
Extra picks are extra picks with Heckert running the show.
Heckert isn't some football drafting God. He makes mistakes too. Trading down simply to stockpile quantity isn't a good idea. At all.
Last edited by Cle23; 02/08/11 04:52 PM.
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Simply trading to stockpile quantity isn't a good idea. At all.
yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit.
Especially when you have a chance at an impact player like Marcell Dareus, AJ Green, or Robert Quinn.
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Tom called...he said to tell you to get up off your knees now.
Good grief.
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To go against the last few points - mostly for sake of argument - I'm all with Ammo on this guys ...
Let me ask you, after this year would you rather have NDamukong Suh or Dez Bryant? Obviously they are both great talents and I truly think it's similar to this year's situation ...
Don't forget that both could be solid contributors for a decade, but one was taken #2, the other at #24. So to make it completely fair, the argument should be would you rather have Ndamukong Suh or Dez Bryant and an additional second round pick?
Obviously it would come down to the specific philosophy and the players and if we have a guy rated as a simply cant pass up guy, then it's hard to trade down. But if we have half a dozen to a dozen players pretty close in terms of our team's grading system, then I'm all for trading down. Especially if it means we could EITHER take AJ Green / Robert Quinn / Marcell Dareus ... OR We could still get a mid round player like a Julio Jones (if we wanted to stay at receiver) or even go Prince Amukamara, Cam Jordan, or Ryan Kerrigan, AND still come back with that extra second and maybe add in a Jimmy Smith / Aaron Williams / Bruce Carter in the second?
Ammo's point is that IF you trust Heckert to draft solid, then why not get extra picks off of someone else's desperation?
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Hey Ammo, which would you rather have ..... out entire 2005 and 2006 drafts ..... (all 18 picks)..... or the Packers 24th selection in the 2005 draft?
You need great players. Most of the Packers starting lineup is made uo of 1st and 2nd round picks.
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Lol you're twisting the argument. Theoretically we could take our 2005 and 2006 picks, traded down from the #3 and aquired another 2nd rounder, then selected Rodgers and STILL had a full draft and almost another full one to add talent.
The premise is that you need to be able to draft in order to get full value from the picks.
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In that example, .... wow, tought to answer. We need both players badly. Suh could anchor the Front-7 for years. But the same could be said regarding Dez (well, as a WR of course). Plus, we would have that additional 2nd rounder too. Tough, tough call.
I'd probably lean more towards Dez. If you hit on the 2nd rounder, you really strengthen your team fast.
Suh is great, but he's only 1 of 24 starters (counting K and P).
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That's exactly my point I am not a 100% advocate of trading down ... but if the opportunity presents itself ... we can either get a playmaker who will change games, or potentially still get a playmaker and add another potential starter in the process.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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Not really, because if you don't take great players when you have the chance, you often have things blow up in your face. Th2 2005 and 2006 drafts were our 1st 2 drafts with the genius of personnel guys in charge. (Thanks Savage) We did trade down in the 1st round with the Ravens so that they could draft Ngata, while we could fleece them and grad Wimbley and Babatouscha Owhatthehellshismanawnywaya .........  I also seem to recall that we traded down in the 3rd round of that draft ... but wound up with Travis Wilson ..... so that was OK ..... We are in a position where we can draft a great player and a pair of really, really good players in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. We're not the Patriots who seem to trade their low 1st round pick every year for extra 1sts and 2nds all over the damn place .... We don't have the foundation in place. We need great players we can build upon. Hell, look at how long the Ravens have built around Ed Reed and Ray Lewis. Look at how long the Steelers have built around Troy Polamolu. We don't have those foundational pieces in place yet. We need to get them in place, then we can go looking for complimentary pieces every year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
Well I see what you're saying but I still think that your assumption is based on previous regimes' poor ability to draft well.
I dont think you can come to a generalization that trading down would be good or bad in EVERY scenario, but depending on the deal itself and what players are left on the board.
You can't say you don't want to trade down because Phil Savage will mess it up like he did in the past because obviously he's gone. So other than that I'm not sure that you can really use our history to predict whether or not trading down would be good or bad.
You've said yourself Clay Matthews is a game changer, yet he wasn't a top 6 pick at the time. So I'm not trying to convince you or anyone that we trade down or bust, but I am thinking (depending on your draft board obviously) would you rather have any given first round talent at the top of the draft, or take a roll of the dice and take a mid - first round talent while adding in possibly another second round pick (which we could use, or even package with a later round pick to move back into the first and get another guy that we want?)
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531
Hall of Famer
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OP
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Quote:
We don't have the foundation in place. We need great players we can build upon.
Hell, look at how long the Ravens have built around Ed Reed and Ray Lewis. Look at how long the Steelers have built around Troy Polamolu.
We don't have those foundational pieces in place yet. We need to get them in place, then we can go looking for complimentary pieces every year.
Who says you can't do that in the late part of the first round? Hell, Ray Lewis was drafted 26th. This isn't the NBA draft where you need a lottery pick to change your franchise.
My whole point is to acquire as many first, second, and third round picks as possible. With a guy like Heckert running the draft, he's bound to hit a home run with more chances to pick players.
What do the Patriots do nearly every single year? Trade down. And they always draft near the bottom of the first round. I'm not even advocating this. I still want a first round pick. Hell, I want TWO first round picks if possible. I just want to do it in a manner where we're not mortgaging the future like when we drafted Quinn.
The solution to that problem? TRADE DOWN.
Can we all agree that DeSean Jackson is a franchise receiver? Drafted in the 2nd round. Jeremy Maclin? Late middle part of the first round. It is not WHERE you draft, it's WHO you draft.
Every year these "can't miss" prospects at the top of the draft are overrated. Half become busts. Thank God Joe Haden was a direct hit but we all know that's not always the case.
I know it's going to be difficult to negotiate a "fair" trade out of #6 but I don't really care. It makes more sense to not have to pay that higher salary (unless the CBA gets worked out) and get more cracks at drafting players.
Our dealing last year netted us five first and second day players. All of them look to be solid contributors to this football team if not franchise players. That's why I say if we can acquire as many picks as possible in the first three rounds, we do it, even if it costs us draft position.
Unless there's a player our scouts and Heckert determine we absolutely must get.
Last edited by Ammo; 02/08/11 06:40 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849 Likes: 12
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849 Likes: 12 |
I don't wanna trade down in the 1st.. especially no more than 2 spots.. I mean seriously.. We need SUPERB TALENT in the 1st.. ie reason why we are drafting so high.
Green or Quinn.. I wouldn't mind Amukamara either if both Quinn and Green are gone..
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) The *OFFICIAL* TRADE DOWN Thread
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