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I don't think Vickers will ever be a 500 yard receiver in a season (or any true fullback for that matter) because his primary job is to block but any way he can contribute in the passing game is a plus, I think Vickers can contribute that way.
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With DA and BQ throwing passes no one was catching much of anything.
You are so negative on the Browns lately, you may want to look for another team to root for.
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Dawg Talker
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I don't think he is being negative, it's just a common mis-conception that Vickers can't catch.
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Lately, meaning the past 2 weeks.
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
I don't think he is being negative, it's just a common mis-conception that Vickers can't catch.
Vickers was targeted 73 times in 5 years catching 41 of them. That doesn't mean he dropped 32 balls. It just means that he was targeted that many times and caught that many of them. I couldn't find how many drops he had or how many of those passes were bad throws.
That's an average of being targeted 14.6 times per season or .91 per game. He caught 56% of them.
So when we're saying he "only" had 41 receptions in 5 years we must qualify that by how many times he was actually targeted in that time. No, he has not been a big producer of receiving stats because we didn't use him much for that. Of course, if in the WCO he is more of a priority for pass catching than he has been then likely he improves his numbers.
I think what some remember that makes them think he drops a lot of balls is the Saints game in which Colt threw three well thrown balls to him and he dropped or failed to catch them. Three throws, three incompletions.
.............T.......R........Y..........Av.......TD
2006.....7.......6......60........10.........0
2007...24.....13......91........7.0........2
2008...15.....10......78........7.8........0
2009...18.......8......27........3.4........1
2010.....9.......4......15........3.8........0
Total...73......41....271........6.4.......3
link
None of these stats are meant by me to mean anything other than how often he was targeted here in 5 years. I included all the stats provided simply because they were provided.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Legend
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Considering that almost every one of those throws was a 1-5 yard throw...... that's not am impressive percentage.
Some of that is on the QB, but some is on the receiver.
Vickers did drop a few passes this year that hit him dead in the hands.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Dawg Talker
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I'll be interested to see how the conversion to the 4-3 goes, I've been wanting us to switch for awhile since our conversion to the 3-4 really felt like a failed experiment.
The WCO in Cleveland is more concerning to me...
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That is an interesting find, I would be interested to see how many of those targets were errant passes from a rushed QB or how many were just flat out un-catchable and how many were actually dropped, we all know Anderson couldn't complete a 5 yard throw. And i'm not saying Vickers has hands of glue but he is a good receiver.
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Practice Squad
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Quote:
I wonder how many snaps the FB got in St Louis or Philly this past year, because that would be an indicator of how much they use a traditional FB.
I don't know where to find a listing of snaps played, but I will add the easy to find information:
Mike Karney, STL FB, played in 12 games, started 5, had 6 rushes for 12 yards and 5 catches for 14 yards.
Owen Schmitt, PHI FB, played in 15 games, started 5, didn't record a rush, and had 19 catches for 136 yards and a TD.
To find out how much they were used as straight ahead blockers, you'd probably have to find an Eagles or Rams board and ask. I'm not particularly interested in doing that myself, but those underwhelming stats suggest that they were both used as blockers.
Even if Vickers isn't a great, or even good, receiver to you, I'd like to think we can all agree that Vickers can handle 20 catches for 140 yards in a season.
Get_Rowdy
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Quote:
Considering that almost every one of those throws was a 1-5 yard throw...... that's not am impressive percentage.
Some of that is on the QB, but some is on the receiver.
Vickers did drop a few passes this year that hit him dead in the hands.
Exactly. Unlike a WR who is running a longer route which makes for a higher possibility of a bad throw or who has a DB all over him, the typical toss to a RB is in the flats where he is alone and a good pass should be caught.
Vicker's percentage is more like that of a WR. A good one. But good pass catching RB's are in the high 70's. Of course, those RB's are being targeted as many times in one season as Vickers has been here in five. And yes, some incompletions are on the QB just as some are on Vickers. However I wasn't able to find a stat for drops or bad throws so that much is still a mystery to me.
But Vickers was a very good pass catching RB in college and that was likely because like Hillis who was targeted 77 times in 2010, he was probably a bigger part in the receiving responsibilities of that offense. I'll not imply that I think he could be one of the pass catching RB leaders, but will bet that if Vickers were schemed to be a bigger part of our passing offense, thereby getting more reps of those type of plays, that could do as well as the average RB at the least.
And I did mention the Saints game in which he failed to catch three very well thrown balls from Colt. But again, like I also think, he just isn't getting reps for that since his role as a pass catching FB is and has been minimal for 5 years.
#gmstrong
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Wallace kind of pissed me off this season. He seemed like a weasel who never bought in to Mangini or the process. His comments in the media really frustrated me.
He DID ... me off this season. Look, we all know why he was brought here, to stooge on Mangini and the locker room. The rest of the team were hardworking guys who weren't going to go running to Holmgren to give him the dirt on Mangini. Even still, he was out of line and showed himself as a cancer by throwing his coach under the bus via the media. Hell he even took digs after the man was fired.
I hope with every part of my being he doesn't return, but he likely will. He's another Holmgren inner circle guy.
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Btw, kinda off the current topic but I hope with Andy Reid looking to promote Jauron and with Green Bay in the NFC Championship I hope Holmgren and Pattycakes rethink switching to a 4-3.
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Has anyone heard any recent news of our next O-Coordinator recently? Havent heard much .. but if we can't get a veteran with actual head coaching experience in like Jauron .. I'd love to get someone on the offensive staff who has experience and I think that could be a major change towards next season.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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All Pro
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All Pro
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Quote:
With DA and BQ throwing passes no one was catching much of anything.
You are so negative on the Browns lately, you may want to look for another team to root for.
He has just as much as a right to an opinion as the cheerleaders do.
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
Look, we all know why he was brought here, to stooge on Mangini and the locker room.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
I'll be interested to see how the conversion to the 4-3 goes, I've been wanting us to switch for awhile since our conversion to the 3-4 really felt like a failed experiment.
The WCO in Cleveland is more concerning to me...
All you have to do is look around the NFL and at the playoffs.
NE runs a 3-4
Pitt runs a 3-4
Baltimore runs a 3-4
NYJ run a 3-4
Add in KC and the AFC had 5 of 6 playoff teams in the 34. Throw in GB from the NFC for good measure and I think it's pretty obvious the 34 (when run properly with the right players) is a far superior defense. I will say though that it's harder to acquire those "right players" and is evidenced by the standard deviation of yards allowed of 3-4 defenses being much higher than those who run the 4-3. Basically if you can actually figure out how to get the right guys and run it correctly it's by far and away the best defense. If you can't do those things then it's probably going to be pretty bad. We don't need to switch defenses. We need to figure out how to get the RIGHT guys here for the 34.
As for the WCO, color me unenthused. If we played in the NFC West, sure. Or if we played in the southern US or in a dome, then fine. But when we're going to be playing outside in Cleveland in December? And then if (yeah right) we were ever to make the playoffs you're dealing with Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Boston and New York outside in January? Yeah good luck with that.
A shutdown 3-4 defense and a smash mouth running offense is overwhelmingly the way to go. I wonder who we could have hired who had those ideas? I'll give you one guess and his initials are EM. (And before anyone jumps in I'll add that yes in today's NFL you have to at least be competent at throwing the football and we haven't been that since 2007, but 2 real WR in addition to Watson and Hillis and a more experienced McCoy might just have allowed that).
In the meantime we're going in the bass ackwards direction. Switching to a pass first offense. Switching to a 4-3 defense. Add in a total roster rebuild to accomplish these and I'm just JUMPING for joy at our prospects for wins the next 3-4 years.
Of course we're Cleveland. I'm sure Holmgren and Shurmur will both be long gone in 4 years so maybe it'll just be a bump on the merry-go-round. 
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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Quote:
Look, we all know why he was brought here, to stooge on Mangini and the locker room. The rest of the team were hardworking guys who weren't going to go running to Holmgren to give him the dirt on Mangini. Even still, he was out of line and showed himself as a cancer by throwing his coach under the bus via the media. Hell he even took digs after the man was fired.
Eric, I thought you too busy being ESPN's new toy to post on here. Welcome...... 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Dawg Talker
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not to disagree, but i was listening to the steelers-ravens broadcast on the radio on Saturday, and the steelers announcers were talking about how the best way to attack the steelers defense is to spread them out with 4 receivers and then run up the gut or do quick passes. i thought, hmmm, thats perfect for the WCO. just another teams announcers ideas....
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Dawg Talker
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Very interesting point Buckeyed .. If we could execute with a *smart* quarterback I would love to see 3 wr's spread out wide and motion out a second running back or tightend .. we either have their linebackers or safeties backing off to help in coverage (where we have our front 5 opening a hole for hillis to pound through ..) or they try to bring everyone up close in which Colt makes a quick read ...
As far as those teams being successful for the 3-4 as listed above ... New England, Pittsburgh and Baltimore have been running it for years (and even then the Ravens and Patriots switch back and forth some plays .. so I dont think either run a true 100% 3-4) ... the chiefs are benefitting by bringing in Romeo (like all of the other new england ties they have) but are only doing it because NE did, and the Jets are only doing it because Rex went to New York where another Belichik disciple already had a 3-4 in place ..
It could mean success I could admit that .. but I think it's just another wrinkle. If we can't run the 3-4 as good as baltimore or pittsburgh then we wont eve have success with it because they already practice it against themselves and gameplan for each other, so we are like a warm up for them. Why not give them something new to see that we can run?
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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the announcers said it as the ravens called their 4th or 5th screen pass in the 1st quarter. the announcers were saying that was playing right into the steelers hands because their linebackers are quick and instinctive.
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Hall of Famer
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nrtu but i think these worries of the WCO are a bit overblown and jumping the gun.
I get the feeling that the WCO that we're planning to install is more a relation of the way the passing game will be run. I understand that generally the WCO is a pass first offense but i doubt very much we'll avoid our running game which is especially our bread and butter have been, and in Cleveland in December, and seeing what has been successful in the playoffs this year (okay GB and Chicago have been pass first) will get us into the running game.
I think that it just will be our passing system that will be as the WCO and the running style associated.
What im more worried about is the blocking scheme that our OL will be employing. Zone blocking seems to be very successful and most of the good rushing teams employ it and idk if the WCO does.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Legend
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Quote:
Considering that almost every one of those throws was a 1-5 yard throw...... that's not am impressive percentage.
Some of that is on the QB, but some is on the receiver.
Vickers did drop a few passes this year that hit him dead in the hands.
You are forgetting that a number of those passes came from Frye, Anderson (Captain BallInTheDirt) & Quinn... and whatever backups we had in there due to injuries (Gradkowski, etc..?).
Yes, Vickers has had his share of drops, but the notion that he is a bad receiver is getting GROSSLY overblown.
You know who was a terrible receiving FB? Terrelle Smith. Hillis is world's better as a receiving back, but Vickers isn't bad by any means.
p.s. just checked St. Louis: Their FB, Mike Karney, had 5 receptions for 14 yards for the entire season. Steven Jackson, their starting RB, had 46 for 383 yards.
Peyton Hillis had 61 for 477, Vickers had 4 for 14 yards.... I think that we're going to be fine with Vickers.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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