DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum 2011 Roster review

Deathdawg’s insightful in depth time to waste review of 2011 roster issues (Assuming there is a season).

QB - McCoy, Delhomme. Free Agent: Wallace.

Biggest issue here is resigning Wallace. Will he want to find a starting job somewhere for what is likely his last contract? Is he content to back up McCoy in a good situation? The good news is that McCoy seems to be the real deal, is smart about not taking hits and avoiding sacks, and the line protects well. There’s a decent chance he can survive a whole season. That said, Delhomme as a backup is playing with fire. Wallace is actually a pretty good QB. The best QB situation we’ve had since the return. Don’t know if that’s depressing or not. McCoy needs to work on downfield accuracy and timing with wide outs. He is capable of changing plays at the line and should be given that authority.

RB - Hillis, Hardesty. Free Agent: Bell.

What started out as a really deep position with no proven starter has become a really shallow position with a great starter. Hillis is entrenched as the starter, great blocker, great receiver. All purpose guy who wears down defenses and has a nose for the endzone. His fumbles are a result of his second efforts and come with the territory. His biggest problem is that he is destined to have injuries because of the amount of contact he takes. A reliable back up is essential. Hardesty may be great some day, but reliable he ain’t. Harrison was actually the perfect compliment to Hillis because after defenses get accustomed to a guy running right at them, Harrison will shift and break away. He’s gone though, and he needs to be replaced. Bell isn’t the answer.

FB - Vickers.

The best in the business, whether he is recognized as such or not. Hands are average, as is his running. The real problem? No back up. If he goes out, the running game suffers drastically. It doesn’t appear that they will carry a back up, however.

TE - Watson, Moore, Royal.

There are some young guys, but these three are all you need. All three are reliable for what they do (Royal excels as a blocker and is enough of a receiver to catch now and again). Watson has been an excellent pick up and fits the team perfectly.

WR - Massaquoi, Cribbs, Robiskie, Mitchell. Free Agent: Stuckey.

Resigning Stuckey is a must. He’s the most reliable receiver of the bunch and a great third option, has a nose for the first down. The rest? Where to begin? Massaquoi is a number two that needs to work really hard to be consistent. Robiskie appears to have maxed out his potential in college and may not make the cut next year. There is still some hope he’ll make the jump, but time is running out. Mitchell is raw and can’t be counted on yet. Cribbs has actually become a decent receiver but is already looking like he might be spread too thin. A starter is desperately needed here unless someone steps up, and fast. Would’ve been nice to have spent one of those 2009 2nd rounders on a good WR...

LT - Thomas.

No back up, unless you count St. Claire, who might be a free agent. We need to draft a RT anyway. This regime has been good about investing draft picks in the Oline and needs to continue to do so.

LG - Steinbach, Lauvao.

Steinbach is one of the best pulling guards around. He lacks some power at times, but no upgrade is needed.

C - Mack, Vallos.
Man, this is nice to not have anything to worry about on the offensive line.

RG - Lauvao, Yates.

Both guys are developing well and continue to improve. I think I forgot what it was like to have uncertainty on the offensive line.

RT - Pashos. Free agent Womack.

I spoke too soon. Womack is good enough, as is Pashos. The problem? Womack is 300 years old and might not be resigned. Pashos hasn’t played an entire season since the third grade. Urgent need to draft high at this position.

K,P,LS - Hodges, Pontbriand. Free Agent - Dawson.

Must must must must resign Dawson. I’m not being sentimental. He is incredibly reliable and understands Cleveland weather better than any kicker I’ve ever seen here, including stover and bahr. His Buffalo game a few years ago was a true masterpiece. The most skilled field goal kick I’ve ever seen. He’s older, and probably losing distance, but can kickoff accurately and put 3 points on the board if he’s within 45 yards almost every time. I don’t want to have a contending team with a new and shaky kicker (See: New York Jets).

NT - Rubin.

No back up. Rogers belongs at end in the 3-4. Titus Adams is a guy who may turn out to be something. May. Would love to see Danso make it also. Otherwise, we need to invest here. Rubin though has really been a lifesaver because we just haven’t been able to invest in the DL yet. 2011 will be there year we get a D line overhaul. At least, we should.

DE - Rogers, Coleman, Shaefering. Free Agent - Smith.

Smith will/should retire. He’s tough as nails but his body isn’t going to last a whole season anymore. Rogers is great but shouldn’t be on the field every down. Coleman and Shaefering are smart tough players who are perfect as back ups, Coleman because he’s slowing down and Shaefering because he’s not going to speed up. We. Need. A. Starter. DE and RT should be 1 and 2 in our draft, as bad as we also need a WR. Our D line is playing admirably, but we’re only going to hold on for so long before we break due to age and lack of depth. Maybe this guy Mitchell from the Vikings is something, but hasn’t made the game day roster yet.

LB - (I’m doing OLB and ILB together because many of our guys jump back and forth) Fujita, Barton, Bowens, Trusnik, Benard, Brown, Maiava, Costanzo. Free agents: Roth, Jackson, Gocong.

That’s right, three of our best LBs are free agents. Gocong should resign and start. Jackson and Roth? How bad we want Jackson and how bad Roth wants us is TBD. I’d take them both but the reality is we may have neither. Other needs mean we likely won’t be drafting LBs high so resigning or finding other FAs is a must. Costanzo and Maiava are purely Special teamers. Barton and Bowens shouldn’t be starting - like Coleman, they’re really solid back ups who are slowing down. Fujita is a great signing, but we need to keep Roth and Gocong, and maybe Jackson, if we want to prevent a rebuild. Bernard and Trusnik haven’t’ shown they can be starters yet, but have useful down specific skills. I’m going to be stressed out until they announce who we’ve resigned. Would’ve been nice to have spend one of those 2009 2nd rounders on a good OLB...

CB - Haden, Brown, Adams. Free agent - Wright.

We need to resign Wright. If you differ because of what you’ve seen this year, you are wrong. For another time, but bottom line is Wright is a good cover corner who is a below average tackler, but good enough. There have been scheme and safety help problems, as well as his own screw ups. It’ll get better. Move on. Haden is improving and good. Brown is slowing down and shouldn’t start or should move to safety perhaps. We need to continue to invest in this position, as depth is a problem since Adams is really a safety. Vetrone is a special teamer. Good tackler, high effort, too slow to react to play significant defense.

S - Ward, Adams, Asante. Free agents - Elam, Sorenson.

Safety is a problem even though we addressed it hard, because we might lose Elam and Asante may not develop. Elam is so so but is solid with good people around him. Ward can be a star but his coverage needs to improve. Adams is a fantastic number 3. I love him. Sorenson is a special teamer who shouldn’t see regular downs except in emergency.

Bottom lines

1. We have a lot of free agents that would suck to lose. Wallace, Stuckey, Vickers, Dawson, Roth, Gocong, Jackson, Wright, Elam, Womack, Smith. All of them, even those with warts, will be very difficult to replace considering the other holes we have.

2. Those huge gaping holes are...DE, WR, RT. RT is actually holding up well right now, but it’s a ticking time bomb. Same for DE, which isn’t holding up nearly as well. WR is a disaster right now. Disaster.

3. Mangini needs to, and likely will, stay. The team is playing like a team. It is built with his type of guys. They are out performing their talent because they either believe in him or believe enough in each other under this scheme. The team is moving in the right direction and shouldn’t be changed. Mangini should be given a well deserved vacation on draft weekend.

4. Heckert and Holmgren have to nail another draft and free agency/trade. They nailed this one. Nailed it. Drafted what appears to be 4 or 5 starter quality guys, one of which is the toughest position in football: Haden, Ward, Hardesty, McCoy, Lauvao. Free agency brought Fujita, Watson. Trades brought Wallace, Gocong, Brown, Hillis. That’s a fantastic offseason. Add to it Mangini’s one personnel strength - finding/developing quality depth from current fringe players/castoffs like Roth, Trusnik, Moore, Yates, Benard, and Shaefering. If H&H can pull that off again - 4 rookie starters, 2 starter free agents, and resign at least 3/4s of our Free agents - and Mangini can find 3 or 4 quality depth players, we have a playoff team. Big IF. But at least its not a blind If, there’s actual precedent.

On the other hand, if nothing changes, come March, we’ll need starters at WR, FB, RT, DE, OLB, ILB, CB, and S. So, yeah. We got work to do.

Nice summary...I'll weigh in with my 2 cents as I'm waiting for a client.

QB- I would resign Wallace at a reasonable price but I wouldn't kill myself to get him. McCoy more and more looks like the real deal and there's always backup QBs floating around the league.

RB- Toss Bell. He's shown little to nothing on the field. I agree that we should get more of a scatback type. I'd look to the draft here and look for an undersized guy that we can get in later rounds.

FB- Moot point. You can always get a TE to fill at FB if needs be if there's an injury and there's FA FBs always kicking about.

WR- I resign Stuckey simply because we have little else. He's been ok for us and OK is better than what our other recievers can manage.

TE- No FAs here but I consider cutting Royal. I seem to remember that we are paying him a pretty fair chunk of change.

OL- REsign Womack....he's not that old (turned 32 on Monday). That being said we probably want to start grooming a new OT. Cut St. Turnstile....he's horrible..

Spec Teams- Resign Dawson at all costs. He's too reliable in the clutch.

DL- Let Robaire walk. He's made a good contribution for us but is aging and injured too often. We likely need an injection of some fresh talent here...I'm thinking 2nd or 3rd round.

LB- Three of our best four LBs up for FA. I grab Gocong back for sure. He's solid and I think growing in our system. ROth and D'qwell.... I want both. However, both of them are looking for bigger paydays. At the end of the day, I think Jackson will be brought back but that Roth will price himself out. Hopefully not, but call it a hunch.

CB- Of course you re-sign Wright. He may not actually be a top 5...or hell...top 10 CB in the league, but he's no slouch.

S- I aim to keep Sorensen. He's a good spec teamer. Elam I'm half and half on. If he looks for elite level pay, I let him walk. He's a decent player but I honestly don't think we lose much, if any, ability if Adams starts over him.

My top priorities in the offseason/draft would be

1) Legit #1 receiver- Without a reliable WR, our offense is F'd and McCoy's development will be affected.

2) Trade Rogers for picks- My boy CanadianDawg has been telling me this since last offseason. And he's right.... Rogers is slipping. Let's offload him while he's still got some value.

3) Upgrade D-Line- Get us a new end to put next to Rubin.

4) Get a new RT to groom. Womack can likely play for another year or two. Let's get a young guy in to start grooming to take the spot.

I think Wallace stays here in Cleveland, but Delhomme gets cut.

Wallace played decent up until his injury. No way Wallace stays here to be a backup, he'll be a starter for a desperate team next year.

I would like to see Wallace inked, but make no mistake, having Jake as the back-up gives us one of the best back-ups in the league.


I wouldn't sweat a bit with Colt, Jake, and some new guy as the 3rd QB.

In fact he'd be in a fight with Pennington as well. I don't see that happening.

As Colt develops... Maybe we could use Wallace as a WR in some packages?


Sidebar: I love this team... All the players are gamers... they all have other abilities other than their assigned roles. "And that is what you get from a Mangini coached football team"

Not that this pertains to the thread..but I just looked at the depth chart at the main site to see where Demetrius Williams was but I noticed something else. They have Robiskie as the third receiver behind Cribbs and Carlton Mitchell..Man I would like to see more Demetrius Williams and Mitchell with Stuckey..I think Mitchell can stretch the field..which is sorely missing. I'm not saying he is great or will be..but it is time to see if others can step up their game because Robiskie can't. Could hit him on a big Play action if we get the running game going..Hit just one of those and you keep them on their heels..sorry back to the thread. Just thought that was strange...

I know and it is still that way. I think because Mangini hasn't come out and declared McCoy as his guy might be why. That hasn't changed since training camp..but the Mitchell over Robiskie I believe is very recent.

Don't be surprised that next year Robo is cut, and Mitchell gets playing time.. I'm not gonna say Mitchell is gonna start though b/c I think we will be drafting AJ Green or Julio Jones.

Floyd Womack is 32 years old only two years older than Steinbach.

AJ Green is nice and Jones is slipping due to inconsistant hands. I think if Green is gone and Marcell Darius is there, they take him.

I think the DL and LB spots have quality players as starters with good depth. A few of those guys are older and will need replaced sometime soon. This group is getting the job done but lacks a real difference maker.

The DB spots need upgrading asap because we really only have two starter-quality guys at four spots. The other guys are depth but two of them must start. This group is not getting the job done but has two potential difference makers.

The OL is solid with decent-to-good depth. I only use a #1 - #4 pick here if someone absolutely falls in our lap...and he needs to be able to play RT right now. This group is getting the job done.

The RB group is solid assuming Hardesty gets healthy and Hillis stays healthy. This group is getting the job done.

The TEs are very solid. This group is getting the job done.

We have our QB and a good backup...or two...for now.

The WRs show no difference makers and we seem to have about 3 guys who should be the #3 or #4 receiver. This group is not getting the job done. I don't even think we have a legitimate "potential guy" languishing around.

I am usually a big proponent of drafting guys who weigh more than me early in the draft...the big heavy linemen/LB types. Early to me is #1 - #4.

I could be persuaded that we must take a front 7 guy early...but he must be a "can't miss" guy. No projects early.

Of course, the WRs and DBs - especially safety - could best be upgraded with a FA vet. I say that because it seems to me that these positions are very difficult for rookies to adjust to in the pros. But who knows what next year will look like.

I feel confident that Heckert knows what he needs and has an idea on how to get them.

I think we are another good draft and maybe two free agents away from being a very good team.

A J Green reminds me of a young Ocho. He's talented but there are better wide outs in this draft.

Julio Jones is overrated... imo I do like him (Still top 5), but not the superstar everyone makes him out to be. Does have more potential then Green to become elite.

Blackmon,. Blackmon, Blackmon this kid is a BEAST. Reminds me of Steve Smith for Carolina. This kid is a couple inches smaller then Green or Jones. But he's stocky, quick, great hands, and runs better after the catch. He will get close to 2000 yards receiving this year.

I did a little research last night on the top-rated players for the 2011 draft.

Please understand that I am no expert in evaluating college players...however...

It appears that most of the top rated players are on the front seven.

Leave out the QB "prospects" and future busts and my mind saw defense, defense, defense...especially front seven.

Am I seeing that properly?

1)The funny thing about that is I see no top o-linemen being taken in the top 10, which is VERY strange, bc most of the time you have about 3 prospects that are rated high on most boards.

2) QB's - There is one that stands out far and above the others in Luck, but some will still grow fond of Mallett and Locker.

3) WR's - Aj Green and Julio Jones. Some have Julio falling because of his inconsistency, but if I could get a Terrell Owens without the attitude.. I'd take him in the first.

4) Defensive Line - Your meat and potatoes are here. About 4-5 d-linemen will be drafted in the top 10 this year.. Some DT's, and some DE's..

5) Cornerbacks - Patrick Peterson and Prince Amukamara are the top.

The weaker areas of this draft are again o-line, and then surprisingly the linebackers... No one just POPS like they did last year. Akeem Ayers is probably the top OLB, but probably won't be taken til mid-late 1st round.

It's hard to discuss the NFL draft at this point in the season (both NCAA and NFL) because there is so much football left to be played, but with our current situation (3-7, playoff hopeless) and a half-season body of work there is at least room for discussion on needs and predictions. As of now we don't know where we'll be picking, but it would be a relatively good bet to assume that we are going to be somewhere in the 9-14 range. The reasoning is as follows...

8 teams highly likely to finish with a worse record than our own:
Carolina
Buffalo
Cincinnati
Detroit
San Fran.*
Arizona *
Minnesota**
Dallas**

*I know both teams match our current record, but our upside is a bit more. If you've watched either of these teams you know they have been pretty atrocious. That being said, they do have easier schedules in that the NFC West is probably the weakest division in football right now.
** Same goes here for the records, but they are both in the midst of an implosion with no QBs to speak of.

1 in between team, that despite having a better record than us now, has a tough road out:
Houston (games left: SD, JAC, NYJ, TEN, PHIL, BAL)

7 teams likely to end up with better records than our own, but not guaranteed:
Miami
Tennessee
Oakland
San Diego
Denver (based mostly on ease of schedule)
Washington
St. Louis (also based on ease of schedule)

The last 15 teams should almost assuredly have better records than us come the close of the regular season.

So that being said we should be picking in the 9-14 range, giving a couple spots of wiggle room. (I should also mention most draft sites, as of now, have us picking at 9 or 10)

Of our principle needs, I'm quite sure we all agree that 1a. and 1b. are WR and some kind of edge pass rusher, so for our system a OLB or converted DE. Most draft sites, including ESPN (I don't why they get they own reference as their speculation is more or less the same as ours, but they do have the most resources at their disposal) have us taking either A.J. Green or Julio Jones if AJ is not available. In our range of notable OLB/DE prospects are Allen Bailey (Mia Fl.), Ryan Kerrigan (Purdue), Robert Quinn (UNC), and Von Miller (Tex. A&M). Out of these characters, I've heard most about Quinn, mostly because of his full season suspension this year, which is a concern, but most still project him as one of the best OLB/DE's in the draft.

So quick rundown:

AJ Green - Unanimously the best WR in the draft at this juncture, and from what I've seen of him there is no reason he shouldn't be. Great hands, great speed, and all the measurable qualities you would want in a field-stretching WR. Also said to have a great motor and drive to compete. From what I've heard, needs some route running work (as do most college WRs), and needs to bulk up a bit to compete in the NFL. Also faced a 4 game suspension earlier this year for selling a jersey.

Julio Jones - Another great receiver with almost identical measurables to Green, though seems a bit thicker (listed 8lbs heavier), while Green is of a lankier build. Has been getting criticized for being a bit inconsistent this year, and probably does not have the hands of Green, but seems a bit quicker with the ball in his hands, and definitely runs more physically and powerfully with the ball.

All-in-all (WR):
Of the teams likely to pick ahead of us I could see him going to either Carolina or Buffalo, but this is with a few stipulations factored into the equation. If Andrew Luck declares he will most likely go to Buffalo, leaving only Carolina in the running, but many "experts" have the Panthers selecting Defense, namely pass rushers. Also, this obviously doesn't consider possible trade-ups, or BPA picks. NE could possibly make a strong run at him given their wealth of picks in the upcoming draft. This all being said, I see us landing one of these WRs as our first round pick, neither of which would be anything to be upset about.

Quick rundown (OLB/DE):

Allen Bailey - Physically huge, but lacks the speed ideal for a pass rusher, I don't think he would transition well to an OLB edge rushing position, in fact im surprised to even see people saying he would work nicely in a 34. Is this a mistake? Wasn't in any way very impressed with him.

Ryan Kerrigan - The biggest thing I noticed about this kid was his high motor, just never stops. He may not be the fastest, but he more than makes up for it with his motor and ability to get off of blockers. That being said, he's not all that slow either. Would translate well to the 34 just based on these qualities alone. How he would cover would probably be the biggest question mark.

Von Miller - Only OLB of the group, and the only one of the group that plays in a 34. Has solid coverage ability and the most potential of the group in this area. A bit undersized, but uses his speed well. Has a tough time shedding bigger blockers, and too often overshoots on agressive angles while pass rushing, which opens big holes. Not how I feel about this guy overall, lots of potential, and could possibly great edge rusher with the right coaching, but I don't think I am willing to use such a high pick on him.

Robert Quinn - Let me just say, that out of the OLB/DEs he is my favorite. Ill try not to gush. What is so remarkable about Quinn is his combination of both size and speed. He's a great size for an NFL OLB at 6-4 268, and has great speed as well. In some of his highlights he just gets a step on the LT and runs clear around them, blowing up the quarterback from the blindside. But he also engages blockers well getting a lot of push on bigger lineman. Is constantly getting to the QB, and is all around explosive. Said to be the best talent at this position since Mario Williams, which is quite the endorsement. All is not rainbows and unicorns though, the most glaring issue is that he is sitting out this entire season with a suspension, and will clearly be rusty come draft time. He was also diagnosed with a brain tumor in his younger years, and was thought by doctors to be done with football. So far it has not caused any problems, but something to think about still. There is also talk of work ethic difficulties/ego which is anathema to the Browns organization these days, whom instead prefer high character, high intelligence players; I'm not convinced he fits the bill. Also, as with most DE converts, he would possibly be a liability in coverage roles, though he is a tremendous athlete. Not the nearly the player he is against the pass in the run game, but that isn't all that damning considering how great of a pass rusher he is.

All-in-all (OLB/DE):
Pretty impressive group, but the only one I could justify a high first round pick on would be Quinn, given how glaring our WR issues are.

Overall:
I don't think we will draft anything other than a WR in the first round, unless for some reason we make a big offseason acquisition at the position, but I can't say I'd be too disappointed with Robert Quinn in orange and brown.

Please share your thoughts, and opinions. I know there are some other highly touted WR prospects out there (Blackmon), but I don't know too much about them and it seemed rather irrelevant given where we will be picking. If anyone would like to add anything, please, be my guest. Is there a chance we draft anything other than a WR/pass-rusher 1st round? If, for instance, a CB like Peterson fell to us would we take him? Dareus? Fairly? Will we forego one of the big name WR and try to find a steal in the 2nd like with Ward?

In the end, I think Heckert knows what he's doing, and we can be happy to known that he is at the helm of the draft. Im excited to see what happens.

Probably a decent overview, but you also (IMO) need to factor in Right Tackle... that range is a GREAT spot to grab a premier RT.


And I have no clue where he is slated to go, but I *really*, *really* want us to snag Donta Hightower (ILB) from Alabama.
I think the guy is going to be a freak show at this level.

Ive seen a fair amount of projections for Hightower in the 2nd. I don't know all that much about him except he tore his ACL last year, but has bounced back quite nicely. Maybe that's something to think about though. WR 1st round, Hightower in the 2nd? Could be promising.

Drafting another tackle did cross my mind as an important position of need, but I would find it difficult to argue that RT is a larger need than WR or OLB/DE. While T is another position that you need to draft very high for premium talent, I think we could find one in the 2nd or 3rd that could be solid. Also from what Ive seen and heard, the T crop this year isnt nearly as strong as it has been recently. One T who might be worth looking at is Gabe Carimi from Wisconsin (I think we all know they produce quality lineman there) who is being said to be not good enough to be an NFL LT, but could be a promising RT. He's said to run block exceptionally well, but lacks the footwork and athleticism for primo pass blocking. Though at the top of the T boards, with this being a bad year for the position maybe he falls a round due to lack of interest in spending a 1st on a non-franchise NFL tackle.

I know this sounds crazy, but I have not been "gotta-have-him-at-any-cost" impressed by A J Green or Julio Jones. Don't know why.

One thing that messes up my draft forecasts is that all we have to discuss at this time are the seniors. We don't know who will be coming out early or staying in school. There are some very impressive WR's who are underclassmen and may come out.

AJ Green appears to me to be a big fish in a little pond right now.

I don't think he'll be that great in the pros.

The fact that he looks like a twig and seems like he'd get beat up alot is part of that.

Replace Wright and St C. Swap a posse of ends for more tacklers ANYWHERE on D. Drop Bell unless he shows soon. Get three wideouts, one serious vet, two rockets. Does OC upgrade count with this roster thread. Because no matter who we draft or sign as pickups, the OC is the pinchpoint, and we need one IMO.

we need to keep Wright for depth purposes..