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I am all for trading down. The talent level throughout the first round is good no matter what. There isn't much of a difference between the talent of the a top of the 1st round guy and a mid 1st round guy.
Also, I don't like the idea of paying $50 million guaranteed to a player that has never played in the NFL. Too bad we don't have all these picks in the 2011 draft when there probably will be a rookie salary scale.
I think what it really comes down to is identifying talent, then getting that talent on your team. Which means it really comes down to the person making those decisions.
Look at team's like the Colts. They consistently draft near the end of the first round and almost always hit on their guys (Donald Brown, Anthony Gonzalez, Joseph Addai, Marlin Jacksom, Reggie Wayne.)
That brings us back to Mangini. I have no faith in him making our selections in the upcoming draft. And he will probably have little (a new Gm will be hired and have control over personnel) to no (he will be fired) say in the draft.
The key to being successful in the NFL draft is not where you select your player, but who selects the player.
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Quote:
That brings us back to Mangini. I have no faith in him making our selections in the upcoming draft. And he will probably have little (a new Gm will be hired and have control over personnel) to no (he will be fired) say in the draft.
The key to being successful in the NFL draft is not where you select your player, but who selects the player.
Not only do I have no faith he would draft the right guy, I have no faith that he can develop said young player.
Mangini needs to be toasted if he hasn't already been informed that he will be. Hire the experienced/successful/good football president and let him build from there.
you had a good run Hank.
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I suppose the odds are in his favor at this point. 
Hehe..........If you're flippin' coins, eventually you HAVE to come up heads.
But when it comes to picking men to run the organization, Lerner hasn't gotten it right yet. I have no confidence that he gets it now.
Being in the building affords him the opportunity to recognize when something stinks. That's the easy part. The hard part is hiring the right guys.
Back to the drawing board, though whomever he brings in will inherit a great cap and draft situation.
Guess all we've got right now are silver linings...........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I'm SURE you had more fun last night than we did posting all this news..
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You bet I did, but not for the reason you're suggesting, hehe.
There's nothing fun about this news. It's just a reaffirmation that yet another of Lerner's decisions has been a complete and utter failure.
So did I have more fun? Yeah, but I'd probably have more fun digging a ditch........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Another gem from the mouth of Mangini (I'll put this press conference down as one of the negatives in keeping Mangini): Quote:
We have a strong structure in place on both the pro side and the college side and things will continue to operate effectively on a day-to-day basis.
In order for things to continue to operate effectively on a day-today basis, doesn't that mean they had to operate effectively prior to the firing? Isn't that why Kokinis was fired? Because things weren't operating effectively.
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We felt that, organizationally, this was the best decision in order to move forward.
Alright, sounds good.
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What I will talk about are the things that we're doing as a team over the course of the week in order to improve.
Wait. If it was the best decision in order to move forward, then it should improve the team. After all, why fire a guy if he was part of the improving. So clearly, firing Kokinis was part of improving the team. Which means Mangini should be able to comment on it.
On if a new general manager will be hired this season:
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As I said, in terms of this topic, there's nothing else that I'm going to add. What I will talk about is anything that is to do with the things that we're doing this week and things directly related to the team that we're working on.
I don't think Mangini has any clue what is going to happened with the new GM. And he shouldn't. He should have zero input on any decision made on the new GM.
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My goal is to win and my goal is to improve. There's never opposition to someone that can help us achieve that goal
You mean like, say, George Kokinis.
On if this was an organizational decision he signed off on:
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Really it's what I said, it's an organizational decision that we felt gave us the best chance to move forward. There's really nothing else I can add.
So, what has changed since January? In January, having George Kokinis as the GM gave the Browns the best chance to move forward. If that's not the case then why did Mangini hire him.
On if it was a difficult decision:
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You never go into any situation with the intention of it not working out and that was true in this case. The organization felt this gave us the best chance to move forward.
But you will go into a situation with the intention of not really letting a guy do his job. Knowing that was going to happened all along.
Dead man walking.
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In order for things to continue to operate effectively on a day-today basis, doesn't that mean they had to operate effectively prior to the firing?
 that's funny,, I was listening to the news and saw that clip of Mangini saying that and I just laughed and told my wife the exact same thing you wrote..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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So when he puts Quinn in this time will he really mean it when he says BQ will the the starting QB and not have to look over his shoulder (unlike earlier in the year)? Mangini is gone by the end of the year, if for no other reason than I doubt Lerner trusts him with those draft picks.
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You guys are right. He's gone. Its a shame but I don't think he has anyone to blame but himself.
Next Year:
New President
New GM
New HC
New Coaching Staff
New Quarterback
New Running Back
Any chance?
Barry Bonds Check
Roger Clemens Check
Mark McGuire Check
Lance Armstrong Check
71-79 Steelers Taboo
(Lets pretend it didn't happen.)
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We agree!!! Mangenius is, indeed, toast. Assuming that is the case my question would be........why keep the guy any longer? If everybody but Mangini's kids know he's history then put him out of his (our?) misery right now and can him today. Appoint Ryan the interim HC and start talking to guys like Cowher, Gruden, Holmgren, Marty or whoever you want as your GM NOW and then that guy can get the new coach in place as soon as humanly possible after the Super Bowl. The only negative to dumping Mangini as HC now would be that you have to pay him. But that's not really MY problem. That's Randy's. And since he's the one that was apparently brain dead when he hired the little turd I'd say he should pay the piper and be glad to do it. Will RL make the right choice this time? I hope so and I think so. I mean how many times can you bust on a choice before just plain dumb luck kicks in? 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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My question is about the players. We can see the guys toast, they can see the guys toast, how hard are they going to play the rest of the year for this guy? Sure some guys will always put out 110%, it's their nature but those that don't see a future in getting themselves hurt for this guy, what about them and the effect on the team as a whole?
#GMSTRONG
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Im not so sure Mangini is toast. Otherwise why not fire him already and let Ryan finish the year. Im thinking Mangini gets next year, without the responsibility of managing the roster.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
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Quote:
My question is about the players. We can see the guys toast, they can see the guys toast, how hard are they going to play the rest of the year for this guy? Sure some guys will always put out 110%, it's their nature but those that don't see a future in getting themselves hurt for this guy, what about them and the effect on the team as a whole?
Tulsa...I honestly believe some of the guys started playing "not to get hurt" after just a few games into the season. I doubt we see a "further" drop off in the play on the field.
Hopefully, we will begin to see some of our younger players get an opportunity to gain some game experience.
Last edited by mac; 11/03/09 07:22 PM.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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I have two comments:
1.) I categorically refuse to accept that hiring a new coach means ANOTHER rebuild. He replaced 20 some odd average working stiffs with another 20 some odd average working stiffs. There is no REBUILD. Just BUILD. That is it.
2.) I categorically refuse to accept the NFP article above that paints Kokinis as some sort of tragic figure. You are the General Manager. Unless somewhere in ink it says that Mangini has the final say and not you then you have no gripe.
Was Kokinis writing blank checks so Mangini could do his thing? Unless information comes out that proves this next statement wrong, then the man apparently has no stones to put his foot down and tell Eric, no. It is chain of command. ¨All trades go through me Eric.¨ He HAD to have known or didn't care and gave Mangini a blank check.
I can't think of a single positive to keeping Mangini that I can embrace. IF he had made even SOME moves that showed promise I could, but nothing he has done, NOTHING, demonstrates that.
I can't see any valuable free agents coming here, none did this year.
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DC...lookin at what you wrote...it seems that way, and it should too...
but...i guess if we let him go we can build the team his way...if we fire him we can build the ORGANIZATION the right way.
so...yea, i dont think mangini will do it the right way, but the difference is that mangini will build the team and without him we can build an organization. i guess it all depends on whats most important
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Quote:
the difference is that mangini will build the team and without him we can build an organization. i guess it all depends on whats most important
I vote for organization
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me too...
thats why i think Randy needs to remove Mangini sooner rather than later...let Rob Ryan...OR Brad Seely coach this team the rest of the way as an on the job interview, and that way Randy can get started on doing this thing the right way.
Lets get the right people in place as soon as we can.
sadly enough...the best structure we've had organizationally was when we had Carmen Policy and Dwight Clark. The way things were set up...were correct, we just had the wrong people in place.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Toad:
I really think that this whole escapade is the best thing that could have happened when all this is considered.
After about the fourth or fifth week I had written somewhere that Lerner needed to look in the mirror. I wondered if he would have the guts to do what is necessary. First and foremost admit to himself that he had made another hiring error.
He has done that. Now he has to make the right decision to chart a proper course of action to correct the problem.
I agree Mangini is gone. The GM/President will want to put together "his" people.
Holmgren and Gruden would be a natural marriage. Both have won Super Bowls. Holmgren hired Gruden and mentored him in Green Bay. Gruden although not relevant is a Browns fan. He grew up cheering for Leroy Kelly. I would have complete confidence in what they would do.
Collier's name will of course surface but he is not my choice. Shanahan would also be a strong candidate.
The selection and orc chart will be critical. The NFL model for success makes it clear. You must manage the cap ( under current agreement) and be great at evaluation of players.
The good part is you can turn things around relatively quickly. This now past regime was going nowhere but down.
I pointed out when the draft went down that they were immature in negotiations. Their decisions to take players and not higher picks was a problem right from the start. The fifth pick trade down and they didn't even get a 2010 first rounder. Then the subsequent trades and they settle for sixth rounders not even close to fair market value. That to me was a red flag that these guys were out of their league.
Mangini may be a good coach but he is not a GM. And you for sure don't let the coach hire his boss. Lerner in his haste to hire a former head coach lost site of how the organization needed to be structured. Lerner hopefully has learned from his failures.
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I'm not going to look into the positives of keeping Mangini because I think the guy is a football cancer who will never be a winning head coach. The only negative to me will be paying his salary. Instead, I'm going to look at the positives of dumping him NOW as opposed to a few years from now.
1. Instant change in team attitude - Reports are that most players hate playing for Mangini and it's clear from what we see on the field that they don't really play well for him anyway. Let's just say we fire Mangini and replace him with Rob Ryan on a temporary basis. I can't imagine many players NOT wanting to play for a guy like that. Regardless of whether he works out or not, it's not like we're winning with Mangini anyway. The team atmosphere will at least be much better and we can start to see some joy coming out of Cleveland again. Next season, we can always bring in an experienced guy anyway.
2. Our situation is perfect for a fresh rebuild - Aside from the disaster this organization is, look at the raw team. We have a Top 5 pick, multiple picks in multiple rounds, tons of salary cap space and franchise players at key positions in Joe Thomas and Shaun Rogers. That could be very appealing to someone coming in here, but if we give Mangini another year to blow our next draft and trade away the rest of the players he doesn't agree with, it might be very difficult to bring someone qualified in.
3. Free agents - I don't doubt the reports saying that teams will be steered away from Cleveland and who can blame them. However, if we fire Mangini and bring in an experienced winner that free agents will actually WANT to play for, it will be another matter entirely. Regardless of whether it's an unwarranted stigma (though it probably isn't), it's one that needs to be removed.
4. Openness and trust - The one thing that can pour gasoline on the fires created when a team spontaneously combusts is being shrouded in secrecy. Let's be honest, we're lucky just to receive confirmation that Randy Lerner is alive every now and then and Mangini is bottled up tighter than even Belichick. When is the last time a GM was fired mid-season and no one in the organization took questions. Bringing in a new guy could definitely help people not being so paranoid about the goings on here.
5. Divided power - Regardless of whether a GM is brought in or not, Mangini will always want control. It's a rare coach that deserves and can handle that kind of power and Mangini isn't it. It's time to bring in someone who will actually work with people instead of tearing them down.
I could go on but you get the point. Mangini is a cancer and simply put, when there's a cancer, you don't try your best to live with it because it will eventually destroy you... you have to cut it out. Until Mangini is gone, we're never going to be able to heal as a team. Bring in an exec and dump the guy. That's all there is to it.
We're... we're good?
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Mangini needs to go by the end of the day.
Period.
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Zero point in doing it now. Wait till the end of the season.
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Gruden although not relevant is a Browns fan. He grew up cheering for Leroy Kelly. I would have complete confidence in what they would do.
While I don't think it is an important, overriding or qualifying factor, it is relevant from certain points of view.
Doesn't mean anything -- wasn't Mangini a Browns ball boy as a teen ? -- but what he doesn't do, that is bring a passion for Cleveland, I expect Gruden can, and would enjoy it.
No guarantees, of course.
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Quote:
Zero point in doing it now. Wait till the end of the season.
Even I agree with that...I want him to get aaaalll the shame  and I want even his most loyal apologists to realize what a scam-coach he is
meanwhile I hope the Ravens lose to Cincy, so I can pound the Vegas line once released...we are the best FADE out there 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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I'm not sure he's a bad coach. I think he's a bad guy to be in charge of a team and calling the shots. I think he's an egomaniac who can't take advice from others when it comes to running the team. I still think he's good at coaching and could be successful if his control is limited.
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So in a perfect situation Mangini is an average coach. And even that is iffy.
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Quote:
Zero point in doing it now. Wait till the end of the season.
The hell there isn't. If the team plays any harder for someone else and is in better spirits then there is a point in doing it, rather than driving morale down further.
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The moment they escort him out of the building this franchise grasps a bit of respectability in NFL circles!!!! 
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Quote:
Hold up.. easy there.. yes we have 11 picks.. but many of them are in the 4th / 5th round range.. I'm not that excited about that.. most those guys never pan out.. when we trade some of those and package ourselves with more picks in the 2nd and 3rd.. then I'll have a big stiffie come draft day.
It's also quite possible to get decent centers, guards, tight ends, running backs, and free safeties in late and middle rounds. You just need to have decent talent evaluators and the good luck that they are still available when it's your turn to pick.
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Also, if we end up winning a few games we won't be stuck with the #1 or #2 pick and have to pay tons of guaranteed money to an unproven player.
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Better than average. He was successful in New York.
Ammo: No coach is going to turn this team around midseason. There is zero point and again, I'm not so sure Mangini is a bad coach.
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Mangini needs to go by the end of the day.
Period.
does that mean before sundown or midnight???
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Ok....I say.....let Mangini finish this season and let the new GM/FO guys determine whether or not they want to keep him. But, if they do go with their own set of coaches, here would be my "dream team" assembled:
GM - Holmgren - he's done it before...he's found or cultivated QBs....he brings instant credibility to anything we are doing here. He also wants to "either" be a FO/GM guy or a HC...not both. At this point, I think he's best served in the FO/GM capacity.
HC - Gruden - speak about complete turnaround in personality from our past 2 coaches....he's young, bright, and fiery. He needs a strong FO/GM in order to reign him in though, which is why I think Holmgren (his mentor) would be perfect there.
OC - Mariucci - Would Mooch be willing to take a demotion to come back to the NFL from his cushy media job? In this scenario, I imagine Holmgren putting this all together with these guys and selling them the idea of resurrecting the glory days of the Browns and cementing each of their legacies along the way.
DC - I say they keep Rob Ryan ...defense hasn't been bad despite no offensive help and few playmakers (really just Rogers and Wright with D'Qwell hurt). Give him a couple LBs who can get to the QB (or Suh from Nebraska at DE) and let him unleash the hounds.
if not Ryan, then I still want to get a DC who knows the 3-4...I think a switch to the 4-3 with the current group of players would be extremely rocky especially because it would turn our DL into a big area of weakness at DE (so yes, even rockier than getting a good 3-4 going).
perhaps if Wade Philips is let go in Dallas we can go after him...he's one heck of a DC.
ST - Brad Seely - don't dare let him out of his contract.
ok....yeah, complete dream scenario....would have to be $$$ is no object situation....still need to fill the gaps at assistant coaches with quality guys who hopefully have experience as well (for instance: if WAS cleans house, I'd love to get Bugel as our OL coach).
#gmstrong
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I wouldn't mind seeing Rob Ryan as the HC, on an interm basis. Can it really get worse?
Plus he has the bye week to change some things, and bench a bunch of people that need it.
I don't really care if EM is fired now or at the end of the season, I just don't want him near our draft picks or FA money. It would be nice to see Daboll gone, that moron...
If....EM stays.....I would expect some serious quitting, players saying things to the media, total loss of the locker room, and lots of finger pointing, possibly the other coaches have serious disagreements with EM. Pretty much even more ugly than it is now.
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Quote:
Better than average. He was successful in New York.
Ammo: No coach is going to turn this team around midseason. There is zero point and again, I'm not so sure Mangini is a bad coach.
You're right he may not be a terrible coah. But he is a terrible leader of men.
He's the anti-William Wallace.
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I want no part of Holmgren or Gruden. I want Parcells as President and I'd let him bring in whoever he wants.
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Quote:
I want no part of Holmgren or Gruden. I want Parcells as President and I'd let him bring in whoever he wants.
let's be realistic at least.......
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Quote:
I want no part of Holmgren or Gruden. I want Parcells as President and I'd let him bring in whoever he wants.
but Parcells is not available....unless Miami releases him. Does he have an opt-out in his contract (I thought that was just a rumor and had to be done last January even if true)?
#gmstrong
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He at least has an opt out, and his contract might even be up.
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The opt out clause was if Wayne Huizenga sold the team Parcells could opt out and still get paid the remainder of his salary. Wayne Huizenga has sold the team. But he had to opt out within 30 days of Huizenga selling the team. It's been more than 30 days. (Link) I see no reason why Parcells would want to leave Miami. Everyone in place there are his guys. From the GM to the Head Coach. Also, when you are 68 years old, why would you leave Miami and go to Cleveland?
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum positives/negatives to
keeping/firing mangini
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