DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pat Mac - Time for Browns to Admit Mistake with Mangini

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It was well documented and talked about that Pioli told Randy he would need alittle time, and EM told RL he could win now.

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The only documentation and talking of this were in speculative posts on this forum. If you have any other sources, please share them. Otherwise it is nothing but BS.

Delmas, Chung and Lauranitis are moot points...because we had ZERO chance at getting them....I should have said after Robiskies pick....Rey Rey would not fit with this defense.....But you got me on Byrd....

I really hope we see Veikune blossom. You know how awesome that would be for this franchise.

To see a project player actually come out and contribute---in a big way.

Looking at the guy, I see what Mangini bought into. A STRONG, fast, smart, high-motor, motivated player. The guy has ridiculous strength, pretty good speed, and is smart to boot.

That is a good combination of attributes. He looks like a beast, and I really hope Mangini and Co. are able to coach him up.

I know there are a lot of naysayers on the board----but in this case; purely as a Browns fan, I want to be optimistic about this pick---and I really hope this guy becomes a solid contributer for us.

I may get bashed for saying this.. but I see no difference between Beau Bell and David Veikune...

They both were suppose to come in and do pretty well, rookie year or not, and so far.. no results to prove that Veikune was worth a 2nd round pick...

Mind you that he has the opportunity to get playing time.. but has let Maiva beat him out... who IMO is even more garbage.

Veikune is a project---most things I had read about him had him contributing mostly on ST until he was able to transition to an OLB spot.

Currently, it seems like Mangini is prepping him for an ILB spot---at any rate, most scouting report have him seeing only spot duty his first year or so.

Is it so wrong to just want to see him hit somebody!!!??

gosh... i'm frustrated with this Browns team...

I wanna have a ruthless defense so bad...

Viekune picked in the 2nd is a head scratcher.
JMO, but he prolly could have been had in a later round where "projects" should be selected.

After looking at that pick I'm getting nervous about the upcoming draft.

Hey Django, did you know that Parcells was going to take Veikune with his next pick? I've also heard that New England would've taken him instead of Volmer.

I've heard a lot of things in my life that can't be proven.

I wonder how people know Parcells was gonna take Veikune? And why would he? Was he looking for a solid STer in Rd. 2?

Nope. He wanted an ILB.

"Uh...no he didn't..."

And yet there he was the first words out of M/K's mouths were - ONLY TWO BROWNS were not expendable for trade talks.

Joe Thomas and DQ.

The media speculated a lot on what when on as they got some blurts here n there.

Something about Pioli stating no Brown would start for the Pats....things like that. And made their ASSUMPTIONs. Maybe he stated for his first move was to trade a high pick for Cassel Maybe that was the game breaker. Mangini stated he would evaluate the 2 QBs we had here before making any move in Change.

Yes, I was won who scorned those who stated we were making a TOTAL rebuild.

And I was incorrect but also not 100% incorrect.

As I see we had Pool, EW, McD, DQ, Wimbley, Rogers, Robaire all returning starters on Defense. And the JET additions I thought would be considered as transition move for all involved to get the D with some continuity.

I still say I was correct but what I was incorrect about was how BAD the transition would be into our NEW OFFENSE. How Bad the QB play and NO I don't think PIOLI was correct in bringing Cassel here cause I'm not too high on him either.

So we are 1-6 and now all the TOTAL REBUILD people are 100% correct?

No I see us needing a NEW QB. I saw us get rid of some soon to be expensive 2nd contracts in areas you don't really build a team around. WR n TE....so on the offensive side of the ball I do see a rebuild tear down...which would have been a lot smoother transition if we had an established starting QB here. But we didn't and the Crap has hit the fan.

I think Mangini sold Randy on two things.

Long Term Team Character to be built and estanblished. Team Intelligence and Discipline being part of that.

I think Mangini also sold Randy cause of his GM of choice to work with was the guy that Randy wanted all along after making his rounds with his Buddy Ernie Accorsi.

Its on record that Ernie reported to Atlanta that they should choose from 3 bright Up n Comers for his GM...Of which Kokinis was one.

Its on record that Randy spoke extensively with Ernie regarding our GM move, we can only ASSume that Ernie's opinion of Kokinis didn't change.

So I think in that regard Mangini was offering a NEW BUILDING - Team organization built around Character and intelligence.

But I believe Mangini did offer more possible use of the talent still here. And I think that still is true.

Just my interpretations of Continuity were off. I admit that. I think the Offense has most definitely Hindered the development of the Defense especially statistically.

JMHO

Plain Dealer columnists join in the Mangini bash-fest. I think the media smells blood in the water. With the bye week approaching, another embarrassing outing in Chicago might force Lerner into a coaching change, IMO. I can't say I'll be disappointed if that happens ...


Cleveland Browns' offensive miseries won't alter Eric Mangini's stance that Brady Quinn isn't the answer

By Bud Shaw
Cleveland Plain Dealer
October 26, 2009

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Eric Mangini's reconstruction project has produced an expansion team.

And Brady Quinn still can't get his uniform dirty on Sundays?

Not even during a game that approached the Pittsburgh Christmas Eve fiasco for outright ineptitude on the field and despair in the bleachers?

In Green Bay's 31-3 win Sunday, Mangini ignored the chants that went up for Quinn late in the first half after Derek Anderson threw an interception to go along with a fumbled snap at the goal line.

That was understandable. I mean, what coach pulls his starter at halftime after committing to him with first-team snaps all week? Oh, right. Mangini did that to Quinn in Baltimore.

Mangini said Sunday he never considered replacing Anderson. Why? Not even after Anderson banged forearms with a pass rusher and came out of the scrum in obvious pain? Not when Green Bay extended its lead to 28 points with 9:42 remaining?

The Browns went three and out with two incompletions on the next series. Still no attempt to either save Anderson some physical abuse or to give Quinn some minutes to brush the cobwebs off.

"I wanted us to generate some positive drives and see what we could do," said Mangini. "That was my thought process."

Quinn is clearly no longer a consideration in Mangini's thought process. It's hard to imagine how a quarterback could so quickly and completely lose his coach's interest, without taking a swing at him in the tunnel or drawing his own plays in the dirt.

Insubordination and diminishing skills are not the catchphrases of this quarterback-coach alienation. In this one, everything is left unsaid and what is aired -- Mangini said Sunday he felt comfortable with some of the things happening behind center (like what?) -- can't be believed.

Is it the money Quinn could've made if he remained the starter? Mangini doesn't see him as next year's quarterback and didn't want him to take enough snaps to trigger escalators in his contract? Is that it?

After all, that trigger would not only make Quinn more expensive for the Browns to keep but it would also make it harder to trade him.

Say that's not it, not even close. So then you have to conclude Mangini saw Anderson as simply the better choice, the puncher's chance to land a shot or two and draw some blood.

Still, Anderson hasn't been that since Cincinnati. Sunday, he completed 12 passes in 29 attempts (for all of 99 yards) with an interception and two fumbles. In the past three games he's 23-for-70 with one TD, three interceptions and four fumbles -- two of them lost. Drops didn't sabotage him Sunday.

In three games, Anderson has thrown for 244 yards total. The Packers' Aaron Rodgers threw for 246 in three quarters.

This isn't an argument for Quinn over Anderson on a full-time basis. The question is simply why is Quinn suddenly so bad that he can't play at all? If nothing else, the Browns might want to try to raise his subterranean trade value.

Too late? Maybe. All I know is both QBs are worse now than they were a year ago and that's on Mangini and his staff.

As for Quinn, Mangini determined after 10 quarters that he wasn't the answer. But now there's 12 quarters -- Buffalo, Pittsburgh and Green Bay -- that argue he wasn't the problem either.


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Coach Eric Mangini is about the only one 'comfortable' with the way things are going for the Cleveland Browns

By Bill Livingston
Cleveland Plain Dealer
October 30, 2009

CLEVELAND -- What, pray tell, would it take to move Eric Mangini out of what appears to be the biggest comfort zone since all mediocre things came to an end in the Mark Shapiro/Eric Wedge partnership?

Mediocre, of course, is the impossible dream for Mangini. This guy needs to score a touchdown, go for two, make it, recover the onside kick, and connect on a Hail Mary pass just to creep away from the far fringes of bad.

The Browns coach said he felt "comfortable" with the things Derek Anderson, the lowest-rated starting quarterback in the NFL, was doing in the debacle against Green Bay last Sunday. He said he saw no reason to consider a quarterback change.

When Butch Davis was the team's coach, his comments often seemed remarkably disconnected from reality. Davis protected his own draft picks by "spinning" their play optimistically. But there always was the sense Davis knew he was trying to pull a con job.

By insisting escalator causes in Brady Quinn's contract that are tied to participation in plays have nothing to do with making Anderson the starter in perpetuity, Mangini casts himself as the last true believer. Along with Claude Rains, the Invisible General Manager, of course, wherever he might be.

The debacle the season has become is of Mangini's making. This is Mangini's team, not one dealt to him in the expansion draft. Twenty-three players are new. Ten are former Jets he brought with him. The divas are gone. But the team is 1-and-6. The only victory came at Buffalo in a game that blighted both cities' fan bases, delivered the entertainment punch of a pitching change in baseball, and gave even winning ugly a bad name. "Fantastic," Mangini called it.

His reaction was excused because it might have been his only win for the season or maybe his Cleveland career.

But last week, Green Bay scored the last 31 points after the Browns struck with all their fury on a carom-shot field goal. Anderson's quarterback rating has plunged through the "Return of Trent Dilfer" stratum, bored past "Yikes! Another Spergon Wynn!" and headed for depths unplumbed since Jeff Garcia paid tribute to Bluto in "Animal House" with a 0.0 grade in Dallas in 2004.

And yet, the coach purred in contentment?

When Mangini was hired about 15 minutes after being canned by the Jets, he was supposed to be a hard case out of the Bill Belichick mold. Exacting standards would be in place now. There were punishment laps for training camp mistakes. There were fines that were more over the top, in comparison to the crime, than anything since Jean Valjean got five years for stealing a loaf of bread in "Les Miserables." Mangini was going to be the new sheriff in town. Players were going to shape up.

It hasn't worked out that way. Improvement has been mostly a product of the coach's vivid imagination.

Neither Quinn nor Anderson has been remotely as good as they were, at least sporadically, last year under Mangini's predecessor, Romeo Crennel.

Former GM Phil Savage, who was slightly more visible than Rains, but only slightly, popped up on the Gulf Coast of Alabama this week, saying, in effect, "Look what they've done to my song." Savage wasn't that great, but there is no denying he was right.

Accepted at face value, Mangini's comments go beyond mere wishful thinking or denial and reach a realm of alternate reality that is completely delusional. In a sport less tricked out with X-and-O mystery, in a sport in which coaches are not inflated into near-mythic figures, such comments would be met with disbelief and derision.

It eventually happened to Davis. It is happening much sooner to Mangini. Apparently, some records are made to be broken.

I know what I said. And I really couldn't care less if you believe me. It doesn't make it less true.

Now we both know that isn't true. You desperately want people to believe you're an expert and in doing so make things up from time to time.

Just stick to evaluating and talking football and focus on the play on the field.

And next time you see him, tell Parcells that I said hi and that we should do dinner.

If you think I'm so fragile that I need reassurance from the people of this board, then you are delusional. I don't care if you believe me, but I have heard it from multiple people that Parcells loved Veikune and was going to take him. Belichick was the same. I am not making anything up.

From PFT

Report: Browns fired Mangini confidant
Posted by Michael David Smith on October 31, 2009 11:03 PM ET
In what may be a sign that Browns head coach Eric Mangini is losing power in Cleveland, the team has reportedly fired a close Mangini confidant whom the coach brought with him from the Jets.

The Cleveland Plain Dealer reports that the Browns quietly dismissed Erin O'Brien, who was hired by Mangini in February.

O'Brien had been Mangini's personal assistant in New York, and in Cleveland she was given the title of director of team operations. In March, a story on the way Mangini was shaping the franchise mentioned O'Brien as one of several people Mangini brought with him from the Jets.

And her connection to Mangini goes further back than that. A September 2007 story by Michael Silver about the then-unfolding SpyGate case mentioned that when Mangini left the Patriots to become the head coach of the Jets, he convinced a Patriots employee -- Erin O'Brien -- to come with him. A January 2006 piece by Mike Reiss, from shortly after Mangini left the Patriots for the Jets, suggested that O'Brien would be the only Patriots employee who would follow Mangini to New York.

So why have the Browns now fired O'Brien? A Browns spokesman told the Plain Dealer that O'Brien resigned "for personal reasons." But the paper quotes unnamed sources as saying O'Brien "had burned so many bridges that Mangini could not save her job."

Whatever the reasons for her departure, a close Mangini confidant being forced out doesn't look good for the coach, especially in the wake of owner Randy Lerner bringing in former Browns quarterback Bernie Kosar to be "another set of eyes" on the team.

The Plain Dealer piece strongly suggests that Mangini's job is in jeopardy, and the paper even reports that Bill Cowher is looking to return to coaching in 2010. Things aren't looking good for Mangini.

Very interesting.

I don't think for one minute that Lerner can just toss in a president of football ops or whatever they want to call him and just magically have everyone work together, love each other and things begin to improve.

If you bring in a football guy it's gonna be and gotta be a house cleaning procedure!

Oh, and Bernie aint that guy...sorry. He's a good game guy but we don't need to hand him the reigns and hope he's a success!

Just get someone that that can draft NFL players, search the NFL for talent and not just his security blanket former players. Not some moron that takes players like Robo and Veikune, and signs totally worthless veterans.

Nice post Mourgrym, hadn't seen the article.

After Lewis' comments this definitely raise some more questions about what is really going on behind the scenes....perhaps Randy isn't as dumb as some people think.

Is Mangini's house of cards beginning to topple?

So, the team said she resigned, some "unnamed source" said she was fired, therefore Mangini's losing control of the team.

There is a lot more here than is in the article.

Fire him. Right now.

Ammo knows that, he's just ticked off right now,,

the more the season progresses it seems the more likely this is going to happen. Can we get a draft forum going

I get the continuity issue and all that but I really have to ask, if Lerner did the deed this week what do we really lose? We've really accomplished little this season. The foundation is currently shaky at best and maybe earlier is better than later in this case as those 11 picks concern me.

Media outlets woulds praise the organization as they ALL seem to hate this guy!

Firing Mangini won't fix a thing right now, and might not even fix anything firing him after the season. However, unless this team changes QUICKLY his goose is as good as cooked come January 3rd...........maybe even before.

There was an article posted earlier (in the Game thread I think) that I found very interesting concerning Lerner's state of mind right now. So no I don't think firing EM right now changes a thing (although January 3rd I might be in favor of if I don't see some improvement), but it's going to happen sooner rather than later.

Here's the article I was refering to............


From the Canton Repository sports page:


Jamal Lewis can only take so much more …

Nov 1st, 2009 @ 6:02 pm by Steve Doerschuk

… and he says one half a season is the extent of it.

Lewis said in the locker room a few minutes ago that he is retiring after the season.

We bumped into owner Randy Lerner in the hallway. He talked at some length. He was quite animated, apologizing a few times during an off-the-record briefing as to being vague about what comes next.

He did say, “There’s a lot going on.”

Jim Brown, one of the owner’s advisers, was nearby.

Brady Quinn seemed to have no idea what comes next. He was his usual upbeat self.

Derek Anderson seemed angry, moreso than I’ve ever seen him. Can’t blame him. He hasn’t been effective, a lot because of himself, but everything around him gave him little chance to make it work.

We can assure you that what’s going on with the quarterback situation will be a red-hot topic in the building for a while.

Mostly I just don't want the guy near those draft picks. After watching what how he's handled the QB situation, including dumping Bartel and keeping Ratliff, to bringing in all the no talent players, I just have no confidence this guy is the right fit for the Browns right now.

If we keep him the rest of the year, fine. But if we dump him now and put Ryan in charge on an interim basis, can't Lerner begin his searching openly for the next HC or get a president of operations and let him begin the search? There's a lot of names out there now and it would be great to get a head start on the rest of the teams that will be looking.