DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum quinn talk part 3

I have an interesting thought...


What IF Quinn comes out, looks sharp and good against the Ravens, and we pull out an upset...


Where does this conversation go then?

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I'll say it again, the right decision was made in the starting QB. We have to see what this one has, and so far he isn't impressing, because the other one is not the answer. It will be time to move on if Quinn isn't the guy either.

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From the fans standpoint I think you are correct. I'm not sure Mangini was so sure. If he was why would he have had such a long drawn out process? As fans we are looking for a franchise type QB. DA has proven he isn't that (at least to me) and we want to see if Quinn can be.

Mangini has to have a much different prospective being the coach. He hasn't coached either before so I don't know if he came in with preconceived ideas. What we think and see as fans isn't the same as someone in his position.

Here are a few questions I would like to know the answers to (and probably never get).

Did he just feel that Quinn was the better option?

Were they pretty much equal in training camp? If so did he go with Quinn because of watching past film? Maybe he didn't think he could coach DA up as much as Quinn? Could it be something more like Lerner wanting to go with Quinn because of marketing?

Whatever the reason he made his decision and should see it through.

My friend toad does have a valid point when he says that sometimes it's better for a player to be sat and get a chance to process things. Actually that's my take on what Toad said.

As a fan I think he needs to stay with his decision. We have had way too much drama and I don't want to see a QB change because of it. Quinn needs to sink or swim at this point. It might not be the best thing for his development but i am tired of caring at this point.

i'm just hoping for a meaningful td first. that said, if that happens, he buys himself a few more games to prove himself. right now, i give him 2-3 more games. if he does well, maybe that becomes 3-4. ultimately, i want him benched before the escalators kick in at latest. if he continues to suck like he is right now, sooner.

the same argument used last season for "adding a spark" applies now. DA may or may not be able to turn things around but we know he got the best out of edwards before and he made his o-line look good before. things can't get any worse.

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From the fans standpoint I think you are correct. I'm not sure Mangini was so sure. If he was why would he have had such a long drawn out process? As fans we are looking for a franchise type QB. DA has proven he isn't that (at least to me) and we want to see if Quinn can be.

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If he wasnt sure why didnt he start either guy in the 4th game? He had made up his mind by the 2nd to 3nd week, he just didnt wanna name a guy or give it away with reps. Mainly so we could "fool" the Vikes...that worked out well.

EM made this call, it was his choice, and I dont believe that is was a "coin flip", he went with Quinn. Now we'll see over the next month or so if he was right.

No way in hell EM gets off with "he wasnt sure", Quinn wasnt named by accident. I admit, I was on board with him starting, mainly cuz he looked like a different player in the preseason. The issue is why he looks so bad now....which could be many things.

Guys.. I just think we are seeing the perfect storm as far as incompetance and mistakes right now. It seems were just not hitting on all the cylinders at the same time and mistakes are compoundng.
On one decent play where maybe a receiver is coming open, protection breaks down. On another we get a gain and it's call back for a penalty. Protection is good and receiver gets open and Brady misses..

Then the defense has 3 great plays and lets a TE go uncovered. It's not all on one position. Sure.. Payton Manning could carry the team a few plays and score a TD or two more but I really doubt we would look a whole lot different at this point. Just too darn many things going wrong.

lots to ponder on this conversation...

Kelso...if Quinn comes out and looks sharp and we as a whole look good...then I think...(and itll further my opinion that) Our QB play will be the x-factor for this year. If Quinn looks good, and we play well and win...that just brings it to a head that QB play will make or break us this year, because we have the talent in all other spots to become a good team.

One thing im noticing...and idk how no one else has even hinted at it...Quinn has put Cribbs in a bad spot with just about every throw hes sent his direction. is Cribbs a legit #2? not yet...but he can be a 3/slot guy and be very good...but...he's been hung out to dry on almost every throw to him. He hasnt had a catch where he hasnt been hit by someone coming for the other direction, or someone was inside of him...and the throws on the inside i look at what DA threw to BE17 on that slant against Tennessee in the preseason as the throw that shouldve been made (especially on his garbage time INT).

If Quinn comes out, looks very sharp and we still lose...then yes it points out that we have problems all over. Thats what I think Kelso...does that make sense?

Always...Where youre coming from...if we can get steady/good QB play...i think you'll find out if ur perfect storm is true. I think that its just the QB play right now as we've been fine in a number of other areas, but the QB play has killed us i think.

still more to think about...if Brady Quinns draft position would have been the 6th round...i honestly dont think that we would be having this convo. Everyone would have said that DA shouldve started because he is a veteran who has won us games. JMHO. Or...if BQ would have been named starter, heda been on a much shorter leash.

From what I've seen...i think that QB play is the one thing that has held us down. Our coach has stated WRs have been open. Our defense has held up through 50 plays both games...and our running game looked very good when the Vikings werent stacking the box...with an old...slow..."washed up" RB with no backup. Our passing game is our achilles heel right now.

Has Quinn had a lot of time to throw? early in both games...yes! very much yes! But...he's held the ball too long (1st half v. Denver) or dumped it off too quickly (game 1 and 3rd downs v. Denver)...this is a very legit argument against Brady's play to this point. And something that needs to improve.

Has our OL looked good? no...but much like we've seen with previous QBs...that if we get the ball our quicker than we have this year...it'll look better. Quinn didnt take sacks until the 2nd half against the vikes...and really the broncos.

What we've seen through 2 games...is that 2 opposing defenses have started by sitting back and letting Quinn have time and try to beat him by beating coverages. Then...through half of the game realized...if we blitz him...we got him. and theyve been right...and they blitz and he has turned the ball over 3 times in the 2nd half in 2 games. Also...they stack the box, and we have no running lanes...and that doesnt help a QB whose passes generally dont get outside of the box. Can he throw it downfield? yes. has he? no. will he? idk.

Now...my opinion says that QB play is whats making us look MUCH MUCH worse than we are.

If we had ANY...ANY other QB on our team starting right now...would we let him play? i dont think so. If we had Stafford or Sanchez...we'd relegate him back to the bench to say he needs more time. If we had Gradkowski, Frye, Tyler Thigpen, Jake Delhomme, Kurt Warner, Chad Pennington, Marc Bulger, Jason Campbell, Derek Anderson or anyone...that was playing the way they were...i think Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, Drew Brees, and Joe Flacco, or Big Ben...theyd be the ONLY guys in the league that wouldnt be in serious serious jeopardy of losing their starting job.


Again...i stand by the fact that if it falls on QB play...at 3 games under .500 before the bye we gotta try something else. And we have to start at the positions that are hurting us the most.

in order the positions hurting us the most are:

QB
RT
WR
RB
LB
DB

and all things considered...the last 2 are only after being on the field for 50 plays.

Again...these are the ones...i can explain why.

QB...if he gets the ball out sooner, RT doesnt look so bad. If he gets the ball downfield farther, RB doesnt look so bad.
RT...has been a sieve against blitzes...especially late in the game
RB...has no lanes...and isnt hitting the reduced size holes...

Also...my thought...if we have an RT that gives our QB an extra second or two...is our QB play gonna improve? im not thinking by much. because...our QB has been indecisive in any and all amounts of time hes had. Would our RB being better improve our situation? most likely not, because with 9 in the box...our blockers are outnumbered (and will be every single time...unless we consistently go with a 3 TE goaline set.

With a QB that gets it out quick and downfield (accurately or not) we improve 2 non-QB spots immediately.

If Quinn can become that QB within 2 weeks...i say we keep him.

But...if we get 3 games under .500 before the bye, you gotta make changes.
The QB is the most glaring hole...change that first.
The right side of the OL is next...so...Hadnot will be back...so he can step in at RG...and Yates, Pork Chop, and still St Clair can battle for RT spot.
And...our WRs might be next...so keep shuffling (get robiskie, momass and other guys involved) until we find a serviceable group...

0-3, 1-4, 2-5...you gotta make a change...Itd happen with any other QB not named Brady Quinn in this league.

Now...if he looks much better...and as a team we look much better, fine. play away BQ...but if he doesnt. See ya.

If we lose against Baltimore we'll be 0-3 with Cincy and Buffalo next...are we gonna be ok with being 0-3 v. Cincy? what about 0-4 going to Buffalo? then Pit...GB...and Chicago?

if we lose v. Baltimore...give us a spark v. Cincy at home. Dont throw away a whole season...This isnt that time. show with Cleveland...much like you have so far...produce or go away. Shaun Smith got the boot because he wasnt producing. David Patten did too...Quinn should be no different. Produce or get lost.

i agree. a very logical and unemotional post.

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i also would want to add that i think it's very telling that neither qb was named captain. most likely, it's because the team wasn't sure who it would be but a cynic or a pessimist might throw out a multitude of other possible reasons. DA was the captain last season.

So I was thinking about some things here today ...... past seasons of Browns football ...... reactions to different events ........

2007: Charlie Frye starts the season at QB. "Wow the OL really sucks!" "If only we had some talent on offense!"

Anderson steps in ..... suddenly we have talent on offense ....... "Too bad we're stuck with such a crappy QB".

Fast forward to 2009: We're back to game 1 os 2007. "The OL, RBs, and Receivers all suck!". It's deja vu all over again .....

very interesting...but...that couldnt be it could it? really? no...thats impossible...right? crazy...its gotta be something else...it has to be...it couldnt be...i cant say it...Q- QB play? *ducks head*

nevermind...nope...crazy talk...our WRs, RBs and OLers stink...thats it.

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My point isn't that Quinn should be benched (yet ) but that a benching doesn't necessarily mean he's done.

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True.
Many an athlete has been better off after being benched. QB is a bit different than in other sports when a hot rookie prospect starts slow, but sometimes it's for thre best in the long-term. On the other hand, some never recover from the benching. Usually, the cream rises to the top.

IMO, if our offense is as non-productive in Balt. as it has been, we could switch to DA in relief on Sunday and go back to Quinn vs. Bengals... to continue giving him a fair shot to see what we have.
Unless DA, in relief, makes things happen.
And we know he's capable of it. I'm not doing a .180 (it only seems like I am haha) and saying bench BQ and it is very early, but geez, I didn't think it would be this bad.
Still, it would be foolish to completely write off Quinn after a handful of games.

Winning % by Browns QB's from 2000 to present day
48.1% - (13-14) - Derek Anderson
44.4% - (20-25) - Tim Couch
36.4% - (4-7) - Trent Dilfer
33.3% - (4-8) - Kelly Holcomb
31.6% - (6-13) - Charlie Frye
30.0% - (3-7) - Jeff Garcia
20.0% - (1-4) - Brady Quinn
12.5% - (1-7) - Doug Peterson
0.0% - (0-1) - Bruce Gradkowski
0.0% - (0-1) - Spergon Wynn
0.0% - (0-3) - Ken Dorsey
0.0% - (0-4) - Luke McCown


Frye was already gone from Cleveland at this point in Quinn's career, it doesn't take long to figure out if a QB has it or doesn't (Flacco, Ryan, Roethlisberger have 'it', Quinn does not). And by the looks of Quinn's play he should have been kicked to the curb after game 1 of his 3rd season just like Frye was.

Put DA back in, then draft a QB in the 2010 draft.

LOL the witch hunt continues ..... lies, damn lies and statistics. Frye had 19 starts to Brady's 5 yet you want to kick Brady to the curb?

Just looked it up.

Career QB Rating
75.1 - Derek Anderson
70.4 - Charlie Frye
66.2 - Brady Quinn


Quinn is the man. Hard to believe he couldn't beat Frye out for the starting spot. Quinn is so much better than 3rd string journeyman Frye. It's a wonder why RAC didn't go with BQ over CF.

Your opinion makes sense if you value time in the NFL over games played. The point of Flacco, Ben and Ryan is true, but look at the talent that surrounds those players. Why compare Leinart to Brady? Leinart has 16 career starts with Fitz and Boldin at WR?

This is imo the worst Browns offense that I have seen, certainly in the last 4 years.

When DA and the Browns had their 10-6 season we had Braylon exploding (not making the drops he now frequently makes), a clutch Joe J and one of the very best pass catching TEs in football, add in Jamal as a 1,000 yard runner and that offense was explosive. I seem to recall our schedule also being particularly soft that year?

At present we have (arguably) a legitimate threat in Braylon. A special teams guy as our WR2, a mix and match of rookies or other teams cast offs as our other WR options. TEs that seem to specialise in blocking rather than catching and Jamal Lewis with another 2 years of wear and tear.

Brady may very well turn out to be a bust, but to say so after 5 starts and with the surrounding cast he has is sadly, from some Browns fans all to predictable.

Just to show how flawed it is to use these stats. The best QB we have had since our return is Garcia. Where does he rank on your list?

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Winning % by Browns QB's from 2000 to present day
48.1% - (13-14) - Derek Anderson
44.4% - (20-25) - Tim Couch
36.4% - (4-7) - Trent Dilfer
33.3% - (4-8) - Kelly Holcomb
31.6% - (6-13) - Charlie Frye
30.0% - (3-7) - Jeff Garcia
20.0% - (1-4) - Brady Quinn
12.5% - (1-7) - Doug Peterson
0.0% - (0-1) - Bruce Gradkowski
0.0% - (0-1) - Spergon Wynn
0.0% - (0-3) - Ken Dorsey
0.0% - (0-4) - Luke McCown

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I just had a Steeler fan, of all people, talk me in from the proverbial ledge this morning. He is of the opinion that BQ may very well still turn out to be a keeper even though he's stinking up the joint right now. His ire with the Browns was directed more to the Offensive Line than anything a QB has done so far.

He's a smart guy and it makes a bit of sense to me. When I commented that Hank Fraley went in at right guard for a while in the Donks game he smiled. "A sturdy lineman who knows how to make the calls lined up beside Mack?" His take on the situation would be that leaves us one RT away from not getting our QB fired. Those darned Steeler fans, always thinking that football games are won at the line of scrimmage...

Blast him! Now I have just another glimmer of hope.

The OL is actually really good, Quinn is just making them look bad. The economy is actually good, Quinn just makes it look bad.

Yeah, the righe side of the OL is horrible, but Quinn is missing throws, he just is. He's doing alot of the same things DA did, those are things that good QB's just don't do.

Interceptions for a young QB is one things, but inaccuracy and bad reads, I dunno. The only hope I have for Quinn is that hes just not comfortable in the offense yet, he doesnt know where to go with the ball, and hes trying to be to fine and overly protective of the football.

Maybe he'll relax alittle bit, but for that to happen we need some OL help. If he relaxs and starts to get comfortable and more decisive he'll take more chances down the field.

At the end of the day, I feel this team has no QB, and is gonna have to draft anther one very soon.

You Anderson guys are funny, I'll give ya that.

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At the end of the day, I feel this team has no QB, and is gonna have to draft anther one very soon.

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I'm tending to agree with you. We might as well ride this weird and wonderful torpedo for a few more games at least to see what happens. Who knows? Maybe we'll get a good surprise for a change.

I can't wait for the Tebow threads to start. Whoops, did I just bring yet another curse upon the House of Dawg?

TeBow? What FB have to do with this conversation?

For the record, if we do go with a QB in the first round this year, I'm big on Colt McCoy.

What do you think of that big kid ( 6' 7 " ) out of Arkansas , Matell or something like that ???

is it hate on DA, or most feel we know DA's strengths, and more so his weaknesses, and we need to see what we have in Quinn to know if we need to draft a QB next year or not.

NRTU

This is what the fans wanted. Had to see what Quinn is about. So Cleveland is getting what it wanted.

Rebuilding again---cuz this is what Cleveland wanted.

I really wish we would have stuck with the last regime. I think that Romeo could have eventually got it done---with DA too.

But I accept this new direction we are going in, and I hope we actually stick with this guy and actually let him work his way into the playoffs---whatever it takes---whether its 5 years, 10 years, 15 years. Whatever.

I wish we would give coaches more than four or five seasons before the entire fan base starts calling for his head.

People wanted him benched when we went 10-6. They said he wan't a good QB.

Who cares about if he is good or not---let him play.

But we can't do that in Ctown. The twelfth man had to come out screaming for their first round unknown. Stupid is what that was. Incredibly dumb.

We have a team that is looking like a contender and we want to bench the QB.

Then, the next year--a young team on the rise, high expectation, faced with arguably the hardest schedule in the country--with five prime-time games, and we fail. Injuries mount.

So we decide---fire everyone and start over.

DUMB.

I hate the twelfth man in Cleveland.