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I am not going to get into the million replies. I will simply say that if you think trading Winslow has somehow improved this team... if you believe that getting rid of Winslow moves this team closer to a Super Bowl championship... then there is no discussion to be had. 
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Quick question do you honestly believe Edwards was our best weapon? If not him then who? The guy had 1 good year just like winslow and Braylon played in more games. Now if you subtract his 1 good year hes only had 10 TDs in 3 years. Yeah thats #1 WR material 
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Could be or,
"Browns to let S.Jones and Others Test FA"
Sure smells like rebuilding to me.
Yea, I was reading an article on ESPN.com just yesterday and I forget who wrote it but the guy was amazed because evidently the Browns are the only team in the NFL that is allowing some of it's players to test the FA market... shocking..
yebat' Putin
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we must be out of our minds 
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the guy was amazed because evidently the Browns are the only team in the NFL that is allowing some of it's players to test the FA market... shocking
LOL,, honestly, some of those guys that are FA's, we maybe should bring back.. Jones unless they have a plan to bring in someone better should be brought back.
I think Dinkins is a FA and with KW2 traded, it might be wise to bring him back. All we have is Heiden who's been hurt alot lately, a 2nd year guy in Rucker who may be pretty good from what little we've seen of him and that's it. So Dinkins might be a wise choice.... Again, unless they have another plan in mind..
As for KW2.... What can I say.. if we got good picks from the trade, I have no problem with it.. I have several reasons: 1. He's a timebomb with those legs, 2. He's started talking new contract at the Pro Bowl a year ago, 3. There was only one year left on that contract and I'm thinking he'd have hit us hard and we may have lost him anyway. And if we didn't, we still have the #1 reason. And no extra picks.
Hurts to say it, but I think we might just be better off.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Picking our best offensive weapon from last year would be like picking whether you wanted to be punched in the nose or kicked in the groin..... There are really no good choices.
I don't know why you trade Winslow and not Edwards but I have my theory... 1 being that we are deeper at TE, if we trade Edwards we've got nothing left, not even the POTENTIAL to be good at WR... 2 being that Winslow is always going to be fighting injury and has shortened his career by who knows how much... 3 might just have to do with a trade partner and opportunity....
yebat' Putin
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Even with trading Winslow, Dinkins still has no value to us. He's even more one-dimensional than Winslow was.
Sean Jones is the ONLY free agent of ours that warrants any immediate talks.
Daven Holly would be #2, but that would be dependent upon how his rehab is coming. My guess is that we re-sign him cheap in a few weeks.
The rest that we let walk? They need to keep on walking.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Condescending,I like it.
I liken the Browns to the little country road I live on.
Every 3 or 4 years it fills up with potholes so bad it's hardly driveable.Then the county comes along and rips up the old asphalt and puts down new.One of the 16 or so workers leaning on a shovel tells me it's the new and improved asphalt and this time it's fixed for good.
3 or 4 years later,new asphalt and a new set of shovel leaners.That's just how things are,and probably will remain that way.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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While it's unfortunate KW2 had to go, getting another second round pick should be pretty valuable in this draft. Gives us a lot of options. Plus, it gets rid of a guy many considered to be a so-so teammate.
We can now stay where we are and take two players in the second or .....we have the ammo to jump in to the latter half of the 1st and snag a player we really like.
KW2 is a great player but I can see why we would move him for a 2nd and a 5th if a team dangled it out there. Realistically he's playing on borrowed time. It's unfortunate given his unbelievable physical gifts (pre-injuries) but his career is going to be pretty short if I had to take a guess. I never would have guessed a team would give up that much for him. Probably made it pretty easy for the new FO to let him go.
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i would consider re-signing mike adams. if i remember correctly. adams was able to play either safety spot but when jones was out, we moved pool to his natural FS position and the safety tandem performed better. he was also capable as a nickelback.
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Quote:
I am not going to get into the million replies. I will simply say that if you think trading Winslow has somehow improved this team... if you believe that getting rid of Winslow moves this team closer to a Super Bowl championship... then there is no discussion to be had.
And if you think Winslow is that important to the team, then there really is no discussion to be had.
Winslow is very clearly overrated by many Browns fans.
you had a good run Hank.
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Even with trading Winslow, Dinkins still has no value to us.
In my defense, I did say he may be worth looking at bringing back,,  and I'll stand by that. for the moment.
On Jones we agree and I totally forgot about Holly. Your right about his rehab however. I always thought holly was solid.
Has anyone heard what picks we got for sure from winslow yet?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I am not going to get into the million replies. I will simply say that if you think trading Winslow has somehow improved this team... if you believe that getting rid of Winslow moves this team closer to a Super Bowl championship... then there is no discussion to be had.
I would say you were right if we just gave him away and got nothing in return. Of course that isn't what we did now is it?
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Wow 
LET'S GO BROWNS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/OldSixty-Two/new0400001.jpg) [b]WOOF WOOF[b]
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Wow , and I thought I was a " Half Empty Guy " 
Last edited by waterdawg; 02/27/09 07:19 PM.
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Condescending,I like it.
Then we'll get along great. 
Good analogy about the asphalt... asphalt needs replaced every few years just like football teams turn over a fair number of players every few years, especially if it's a country road on a weak subbase that gets a lot of bad weather, plowing and salt....
So, as this relates to the Browns, do we need new asphalt or do we need to tear it up and replace the whole subbase?
yebat' Putin
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#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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j/c what's funny is other teams in our division are happy we just got rid of winslow because he was a very hard target to cover. Teams planned around him. Now our only real recieving threat is BE who has always reminded me of Quincy Morgan Football. JL used to be a threat, those days are gone. I don't think trading Winslow was worth it. The way the new coaches are getting their paws into the team I would expect another 2-3 trades. BE, Rodgers, DA/BQ before the draft.
If they even start talking about rebulding... I'm going to freak out. The FO is creating massive holes that cannot be filled very easily. Esp with the FA that are left. Right now,,,, we need a TE, WR,RB, RG,MLB, OLB, SS, CB. That's not including depth or one pissed off NT. Where do they think they are going to get enough quality picks to pull that off? We are looking at another 3-4 years before we are going to be competitive again. It's very dissapointing.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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A 5th next year? Who gives a rat's ass.  I personally think this is a ploy to force us to buy new jerseys continuously and bring in more money.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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it's not that bad. at least with mangini, unlike with rac, he'll allow players to emerge. they had questions before cotchery emerged. same with washington. we'll finally give more reps to promising young players instead of having a strong pre-requisite that the player have done something before sniffing the field.
who knows, maybe jerome harrison will emerge. maybe beau bell. maybe martin rucker. maybe paul hubbard. etc. maybe we'll have a great draft.
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Quote:
I liken the Browns to the little country road I live on.
Every 3 or 4 years it fills up with potholes so bad it's hardly driveable.Then the county comes along and rips up the old asphalt and puts down new.One of the 16 or so workers leaning on a shovel tells me it's the new and improved asphalt and this time it's fixed for good.
3 or 4 years later,new asphalt and a new set of shovel leaners.That's just how things are,and probably will remain that way.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I can't believe we got a second for him. Our new GM's first move is a stellar one. 
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50 is a good pick.....we can find a player there.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Hope Matthews is still on the board..
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I keep hearing talk of N.E. taking Matthews in the first...I'd spend a 3rd on him...IMO too many are thinking with their hearts and not with their heads on that one.
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I see Clay as exactly what this team needs. Blue collar lunch pail type guys that LOVE to play. I'd be happy to get him at 50.
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I'd love to grab him at #50 as well, but he won't be there. We'd have to take him at #37 if he falls to us.
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Quote:
I see Clay as exactly what this team needs. Blue collar lunch pail type guys that LOVE to play. I'd be happy to get him at 50.
That's feel good and all...but I'm rather tired of LB's who are easily redirected by linemen and struggle in coverage. I'm not saying he's a stiff, but I wouldn't pick him before the third.
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While it can be argued that the sudbase is,well,subpar the word down in the maintaince shop is that the new asphalt is much tougher.
Cal,nice picture.I had no idea Randy spelled his name with an "a".Is that he on the far right?
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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lol, Did it in a hurry, forgot to spell check. Left to right, Lerner, Mangini, Quinn, Kokinis.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I think this is a good solid move. Sounds to me like EM is getting control of his locker room. KWII was plain and simply a trouble maker. Dont get me wrong... I think he is a great weapon to have on a team. But #50 this year... I'll take it!!!
#5- Curry(if he's there) or Jenkins (i dont care what his 40 time was... he did have the best cone drill time. Basically, he has football speed and a great cover corner. Knowshon and Beanie ran very slow too... alot of people did. All the combine determines is what kind of athlete you are.
#36 Mathews!!!!!!
#50 Knowshone/Beanie/Shon Greene... which ever is still available. J. Lewis has had his best days.
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J/C
I just read this entire thread and can't believe all the doom and gloom some are expressing. Rebuilding? Because we traded a TE....a freaking TE!
Then there are those bashing Heiden, the guy is a good TE who can catch, and has made cluth catches many times for this team. He is far from a bad TE,as many seem to be implying. Also, I saw Rucker in camp, and believe me he's no slouch.
But IMO thinking Quinn will have no one to throw to because K2 is gone is foolish. Some of these replies border on sheer stupidity. They act as if Mangini just crushed the whole offense by trading Winslow. Then you have the jokers who now have him trading Edwards and Rogers too, as if he's intentionally trying to get rid of all the good players. Trust me, Rogers is going nowhere, the cap hit would kill us, plus he's the best right now. Just because he got his feelings hurt people have him slacking this year. Maybe they should wait until say maybe...at least one practice actually takes place.Besides the team never thought of trading him, that was conjured up by fans. He was the one crying and saying not to pay his bonus, not Gini an Koks.
All in all, getting a second round pick and any other pick was a good trade. Funny just a few days ago many were saying we couldn't get a 4th for him.
#gmstrong
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what's funny is other teams in our division are happy we just got rid of winslow because he was a very hard target to cover.
was he hard to cover? sure....but that don't mean squat...
in his mind he is the best te ever....and he's gonna want tons of cash...with his injuries, a team is foolish to do it...
how many plays were called back because of stupid penalties on him, cause he didn't know where to line up.....how about wrong routes? all that stems from lack of practice, because of his knee...
we were looking at having him for 1 more year tops....then he was gone for the cash anyway....at least we got something for him...
he also was a huge liability in the running game....we were always motioning him outside...so we were deprived of having a te in the game that could either block OR go out for a pass......
how did we do against the giants? winslow didn't play..heiden did...
i would rather have a well rounded te, than a one-dimensional one...
maybe we draft someone in round 2 this year that teams in our division will have to game plan for...who knows...
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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just clicking.........
I think this trade has a lot more to do with the massive holes we have at other positions, and the quality depth we had behind KW than anything else. I mean who helps you win football games in our scheme more............a LB or a TE??? We have a ton of needs, and have limited amount of draft picks. We have 3 assets that are tradeable, and 2 of those have replacements already in house.........and KW was one of them. I think his crappy attitude had something to do with it, but imo if he was a Boy Scout this was still the smart thing to do, because we need more picks to obtain players who fill other needs................Heiden and Rucker will be just fine and there is no need to get another TE right now. The same thing will happen to DA in a couple of weeks, because his replacement is already here, and we need to fill other holes. I don't think this has anything to do with tearing it down, but rather getting rid of replaceable guys and obtaining picks to get more pieces of the puzzle.
For all the doom and gloomers.............I would feel a whole lot worse if the FO had passed on this deal than taking it.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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j/c
Here's what I've got to say about KWII.
He could catch the ball.....his knee constantly needs work...he could catch...he was good for one 15 yd penalty a game...he could catch...he lined up in the wrong spot a lot...he could catch...he wasn't much of a blocker...it was allll about him...but he could catch.
Our new regime wants to build through the draft. We didn't have many picks. So now they have a couple of more picks.
![[Linked Image from members.cox.net]](http://members.cox.net/flyinc5/smallsigpics/frcburnout.gif) AL 29 76 14 R_K
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j/c
You know what I love about this board? I love how those that doubt this franchise are labeled "Doom and Gloomers".
The Browns have lost over 100 games in 10 years. After 10 years of pathetic football, what do you expect from the people who spend their hard earned money on this poor replacement for the team we once had?
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j/c
this poor replacement for the team we once had?
wow...those words really hit home. they're totally true.
AL 29 76 14 R_K
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There's a difference in pointing out the stupid moves that the Browns have made (seemingly repeatedly...lol) over the last 10 years, and coming to the conclusion that we are rebuilding because we traded what amounts to an extra piece (with an attitude no less). I've been critical of the Browns (mainly Lerner) this whole offseason, but it's ridiculous to get upset over trading a TE......a freakin' TE........for a 2nd and 5th round pick. Especially when you already have another player/players in house who can be an adequate replacement. If we didn't have a ton of needs or had a full array of picks then maybe I can understand some of the outrage (but probably not even then.....a freakin' TE), but considering none of the above is true I do not. TE is a luxury position in the NFL, and isn't nearly as important as other positions where we have HUGE holes at. The # 50 pick will fill one of those needs, and accompany that with an adequate replacement for KW (either SH or MR) and we are a better football team today than we were yesterday..........providing they don't screw up the # 50 pick..lol.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Quote:
Then you have the jokers who now have him trading Edwards
There are reports out now that intimate this is a real possibility, and it makes sense. If we don't negotiate an extension with Edwards he is going to walk at the end of his contract. Furthermore, no extension can mean he doesn't want to be here. If the FO knows this, what other alternatives do they have but to get something for him now?
Buckle your seatbelts. Trading Winslow is one thing. Trading Edwards will signal a 1 to 2 year rebuild. And it may take years and years and years before we find his replacement. Edwards can get the job done. This FO needs to get him to sign an extension whether he wants to be here or not and get his game turned around. If we start putting a better product on the field, BE will buy in, and he'll be happy to be here. I'm not saying that's ideal or that it'll make me happy if it plays out that way, but that's the reality of the situation.
Unless we can trade him for Boldin, he needs to be here for us to have any sort of success next year or the year after.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Because we traded a TE....a freaking TE!
He's not a freaking TE, he's a Pro Bowl TE that probably has one-of-a-kind talent at the position. Injuries set him back and probably took life off his career, but he's not just a tight end.
The one thing I don't like about this is losing talent. The thing about this team for years is it was void of talent. We finally got some faces, like K2, Edwards, Thomas and Rogers, And now we're going backwards- back to no names and mediocrity.
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns trade Winslow
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