DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Brady Quinn on Dan Patrick Show

Now there is a decent football discussion going on here..

At first thought, I've always believed to be successful you have to control the game (limit turnovers) and stop the run. Perhaps thats from the style of ball I've become so familiar with here in the Northern part of the country.

But eotab has got me thinking.

All the true dynasty's in the NFL have been built through air superiority. My first argument would have been the Steel Curtain of the Steelers had five hall of famers on defense. But we know all about Bradshaw and company as well. They were the measuring stick for the passing game in the 70s. There have been rare cases, of course, of teams with amazing D and a quality run game. 2000 Ravens immediately comes to mind. '85 Bears as well. However, none of those run/stuff run teams have been dynasty's.

The Pats run of Super Bowl championships recently has been solely on air superiority. The only one you could argue on balance would be the first in Brady's first season. But if you remember correctly it was their pass defense that shut down the greatest show on turf and won them that super bowl. Since then Brady has turned into one of the greatest ever winning them two more super bowls with air superiority. Also, they got to those super bowls each year with a helluva pass defense to stop Peyton and the Colts, who used, you guessed it air superiority to seven straight ten win seasons.

I dont understand the argument about the Eagles in the early 2000s because Westbrook was used purely as a receiver. McNabb was doing it through the air with them too.

Same thing with the 49ers. Jerry Rice shattered every receiver record there is staring for them, and those records aren't going to be broken anytime soon. Yeah, Walsh implemented the WCO, but you'd have a hard time arguing against air superiority there.


I do believe in balance though. Like it was said you cannot be one-dimensial. Superior is not judged by volume or quantity.

Again also remember those who one if you go check the stats and they didn't PASS A LOT...their efficiency when they did pass was very high.

In the study of the theory the key stat was Yards per Pass play...On offense but also on defense as well.

You mentioned the Steel Curtain and 46 D Bears.

Well the "STEEL CURTAIN" stood for sacking and pressuring the QB as was the case with the 46 D - totally anhilation of the passing game via pressure.

That 2000 Raven team...what got them in the playoffs and won the championship. A defense that game planned in TAKING THE QB OUT! and was the last to do so as the NFL changed the rules cause they won a Championship by literally damaging the opponents starting QBs. After Saragoosa Swan Dived with GANNON in his arms and landing full brunt on top of him...Gannon was finished.

I think they knocked the starting QB out of the game in 8 straight games.

And all those teams...as you noted Bradshaw...but also the "EFFICIENCY" of McMahon and Dilfer in those Championships assisted in the wins. But mostly their ability to stifle an opponents air game was evident.

But that is why there is so much focus on the QB as the #1 reason teams win Championships.

Also in that focus is the importance stressed on a Pass Rush.

Left Tackles protecting the blind side and countering the Edge Rusher.

Cover Corners breaking the bank every year as the Big time FA catch.

JMHO...I can bring even more to the table...lol but will take it little by little.

And most important - no where am I saying that a team should ignore the Running attack on Offense or Defense. Just it seems to be the PAWN in the chess match...where its the Queen that gets the checkmate and that would be the AIR GAME

I agree with everything you have stated. Now let me ruin it for you.

Those teams you mentioned they could all stop the run. On defense it starts with stopping the run. If you can stop the run, then you are ALLOWED the luxuries of attacking the passer and taking out the passing game via anialation of the the passer. If you can not stop the run you are faced with too many 3rd and short/3rd and mediums and you simply can not be as creative in those situatinos, beucase the offense can be more creative. You can not dial up some of your pressures, becuase you are defending...or attampting to defend a much more diverse passing zone.

So was it the chicken or the egg? Do you win becuase of stopping the pass....or do you stop the pass only becuase you can first stop the run, therefor you win becuase you can stop the run.

I can't just sit and watch this anymore bro ... to say that Air Superiority vs Run Superiority WAS the way to do it is just wrong ... Over the last 10 - 15 years the rules have changed and made it alot easier to pass and a much better way to move the ball .. that combined with the Salary Cap has made teh field alot more even in regards to the old formula .. cause now every team is going to have at least one major weakness on one side of the ball ... hell the pats team U talk about when they one theie first SB WERE AVERAGE AT BEST ON O AND D ... there best untis were there special teams and Billicheck .. that IMO is the greatest coaching job EVER ...

anyhow .. just going to set the recored straight here .. as from the 50's through the mid 90's .. your DEAD WRONG ...

our teams in the 50's ... yes we had Otto .. and yes the historians wills ay it wqas our air superiority that won for us .. but thats compared to the other teams in that era ... the forward pass was a little used emerging way of passing the ball .. and we passed better than everyone else .. well we also RAN THE BALL REAL WELL and we STOPPED THE RUN .... that stuff is not debatable ...

the Stilers in the 70's ... are u kidding me?? ... air superiority .. please .. they passed better and defended the run better than others against the pass .. but they also SHUT THE RUN DOWN while RUNNING THE BALL DOWN YOUR THROATS ....

THEIR LINES DOMINATED BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL ...

Franco and Rocky ... they had pretty dam good success .... and it wasn't because teams were afraid of Terry ... teams GEARED to STOP THE RUN back then .. and no one could stop the stilers running game ..

the Niners of the 80's .. again they had Air Superiority ... they also ran the ball pretty damm welll Roger Craig ... Ricky Waters ... pretty dam good ..

and on D they shutr the run the hell down ... BOOM ...

the Boys in the 90's .. *LOL* ... thats just beuatiful ...

THERE LINES DOMINATED ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL ....

They could run or pass at will and they SHUT THE RUN THE HELL DOWN ...

these teams were balanced .... and that is now the KEY ... U will have "flukes" both ways ... but if u want to be CONSISTENTLY around the brass ring .. RUN AND STOP THE RUN ... anyone with a clue will tell U the key to success is to BUILD THE LINES on both sides of the ball .. and that INCLUDES U ... so spare me the Air Superiority crap ..

it is very very important ... but I will beat U every day of the week and twice on Sunday if u give me a team that run the ball and stop the run and U can do neither ...

your examples of McMahon being a main cog in the Bears success was what made me come here .. your right bro .. he was a MAJOR COG in there success .... he made enough plays when he had to .. and that was HUGE .....but please .. there success rested on D and on Payton ... if not for them he would never been in a position for those plays that he made to mean anything ..

U can not have a bafoon playing QB ... no matter how good the d is or how good U are at running the ball the QB STILL HAS TO MAKE PLAYS .....

look at one of the best QB's of all time who did nuttin but throw the ball .. Dan Marino .. how many rings he get?? ... look at Elway .. he played with GREAT D'S that could stop the run and the pass but they could not run the ball ... when they got a RB and on OL that could run block .. with a crappy D they won it all ... look at the packers and favre ... they passed all over the yard ... and didn't win until they got a RB that could run it ..

the examples are endless ...

I am not going to sit here and tell U that passing is not important ... but please don't try and say that passing and stopping the pass is the way to go ... is it important .... ABSOLUTELY .... is it more important than it was 15 - 20 years ago due to FA and rule changes ... ABSOLUTELY ....

but being able to run and stopping the run always has been and still is the BEST ROUTE TO SUCCESS .... and again .. U have to be able to throw the ball and can not have a BAFOON AS A QB ... but no way is Air O and D the key to winning ..

BALANCE and BEING ABLE to do both are the keys on O ... and if U want to give me my choice on D .. I'LL TAKE A RUN STUFFING D EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK ....

but thats just me .... what in the hell do I know ...

When we had 2 thousand yard backs we were 8 & 8 and 1 & out in the playoffs. When we ruled the air we were 3 out of 4 years in the Championship game.

Yes, you need to be able to run to some degree and play D...but if you can't pass REALLY WELL, you're not going to win consistantly. In the old days the NFL was run...and suppliment with the pass...but that has slowly changed into today's game.

Today's game puts more emphasis on the QB. I don't think that Joe Kapp would make it in today's NFL.

In those 3 out of 4 years we made it to the AFC Championship game the teams that beat us got pounded in the Super Bowl against teams that had balanced offenses and run stopping defenses..

You are right, today's game does put more emphasis on the QB. Not necessarily to light it up but to not make mistakes. A QB that can manage the game i.e. no turnovers, clock management and knowing when to audible is all we really need paired with a good running game.

Diam is right..look at every team that has won a Super Bowl in the last 10 years. Without looking at the stats, my guess is every team had a balanced offense and a damn good run stuffing defense.

The last ten Super Bowl winners:
Giants
Colts
Steelers
Patriots
Patriots
Buccaneers
Patriots
Ravens
Rams
Broncos

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When we had 2 thousand yard backs we were 8 & 8 and 1 & out in the playoffs.

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We also had a rookied QB who did nuttin but hand the ball off .. we made the playoffs by winning our division at 8 - 8 ( I believe) .. no one believed we won it ...

we could obviously RUN THE BALL .... we had a QB who was inexperienced and learning ... we had not much of a passing game ...

we were ONE DIMENSIONAL and NOT A VERY GOOD FOOTBALL TEAM ... we were LUCKY AS HELL TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS ....

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When we ruled the air we were 3 out of 4 years in the Championship game.

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Ruled the air?? ...*LOL* ... I missed those years .... i NEVER REMEMBERING us ruling the air with Bernie .....

were we a better passing team .. yup .. we had a great O-coordinator that took advantage of our BRILLIANT and ACCURATE noodle armed QB and designed a dink and dunk O based on his strengths ...

we also had a GREAT D ..... that U COULD NOT RUN ON ... they were also very good against the pass ...

but no way did we RULE THE AIR .. *L* ..

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In the old days the NFL was run...and suppliment with the pass...but that has slowly changed into today's game.

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isn't that what I said to a certain degree ... u still best be able to RUN THE BALL and STOP THE RUN ... but the passing game due to rule changes has taken on a far greater role ... and u can win now with a pass first O ... but U still best be able to run the ball ... even if it is set up by the passing game ...

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Today's game puts more emphasis on the QB.

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Again ... I agree ... and said pretty much the same thing ...

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I don't think that Joe Kapp would make it in today's NFL.

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I disagree ... there are alot of teams that have QB's that throw the ball MUCH WORSE than Mr. Kapp ... and funny U brought up that example ... how do U think his own vikes would have done with him as opposed to T. Jack and G. Ferrote ... I'm guessing not any worse ...

u know its funny that in a day when the pass is so instrumental that so many teams have and are enamored with QB's that are not VERY ACCURATE at all but can run like the wind ...

see M. Vick ... V. Young .. T. Jackson .. JP Losman ... these guys were all either VERY HIGH or top 15 picks(I believe) in the last 5 years ...

look .. I'm not saying that running is as near as important or essential as it used to be ... but it is still a damm good formula and U best be able to do it if U want to win ...

and stopping the run is still essential ... cause if U can't ... U are in trouble when u play teams that can run it ...

and it certainly was way more important than my good friend and very football knowledgable fellow Dawg Mr. Tab is trying to convey ...

ny guess is were alot closer on this than the posts make it appear .. thats usually the way it is between us ...

eo -

I agree with you more often than i should, but I can't agree with you here

A good QB is absolutely critical (exception Dilfer) to win in the league. However, it's a strong overall defense and a balance offense that leads to consistent winning. A QB needs to be counted on to make plays when needed, but a consistent running game keeps the chains moving and wears down defenses.

Pittsburgh, New England, Philadelphia, Baltimore and even Chicago have remained consistently competetive over the past few years as a result of strong defenses. They may not make the playoffs every year, but they are in the hunt. The first 3 are considered top 5 teams in the year consistently because they have a good QB. The Colts have been consistent contenders, yet other than 2006, have fizzled out due to a weak defense or an off game by Manning.

Stopping the run is the most important factor for a team. The last 15 Super Bowl winners prove this out...

Year Winner Rush D YPG Rank
2007 NYG 8
2006 IND 32
2005 PIT 3
2004 NE 6
2003 NE 4
2002 TB 5
2001 NE 19
2000 BAL 1
1999 STL 1
1998 DEN 3
1997 DEN 16
1996 GB 4
1995 DAL 16
1994 SF 2
1993 DAL 11

Only once has the SB winner had a rush D in the bottom 12. Two-thirds of the time, the winner has been in the top 10. More than half, they are in the top 5. Stats are for losers, but that's tough to argue with.

All stats aside, a great passing attack can help overcome weaknesses on defense when you play in a dome. For teams that play in the AFC North, passing attacks don't work so well outside in November and December.

I don't think being dominate in one or two aspects of the game is sufficient to win the super bowl. None of these teams were really bad at any aspect. It's just that some component of their team whether it been running attack, passing attack or defense overshadows the other aspects.

Given two weeks to prepare, I don't care how good yuou can run the ball (or pass the ball) if there is not sufficient complement the other NFL teams will figure out a way to shuht down that one thing you do well.

"On defense it starts with stopping the run."

No where am I saying a team should have Swiss Cheese in stopping the run. What I am saying is OK you now have stopped the run...and if you cannot dominate the passing game stopping the run went all for naught.

Its. like us this year if I can use an example as much as its will be denied its actually a good one.

For the most part we did a good job stopping the run this past season. I know someone is going to pull out stats to counter that - Please see Diam for what I think about that one

But this is what I'm talking about. We couldn't dominate the PASSING GAME so that when we VERY, VERY often got teams to a 3rd down situation of 3 yards or longer. They would simply convert on their 3rd down. Again n again n again which that in fact gave our D a bad "STAT" btw in our run defense. Eventually their discipline would break down and they would give up a 10-15 yarder...but not often.

See what I mean. And I'll say this - stopping the run game takes less talent and more good coaching with team discipline to achieve it. Oh don't get me wrong you still need talent. But you can develop a great Run D with average across the board talent with excellent execution and Gap responsibilities.

An Awesome Pass Defense has more AWESOME individual effort involved where you have to have TALENT...not across the board but in some very key areas.

Pass Rusher!...CB as the more you can trust your man cover skills the more you can gamble with less risk in the blitzing department.

You need good Grunts to have a good Run D...and don't get me wrong, a stud here n there sure does help. But an awesome pass Defense you need studs at certain skill sets to succeed!

No chicken and egg thing. Do stop the run cause you got STUDS and are awesome...or do you just play as a team in the front seven and have disciplined gap responsibilities. Believe it or not, its not that hard to stop the run. The formula is out there and any defense can achieve it with the right attitude, coaching and dedication! And again we were the proof of that...we had so many, many, many 3rd down situations where we did enough good to stop the run...there was our Chicken out there...unfortunately we laid too many eggs (rotten ones) and the end result was clear. We stopped the run but didn't stop the pass.

Awsome teams have the Individual talent to be awesome and control the passing game. Again...QB!, LT!, CB! and Pass Rusher! Teams who have this will control the air more often than not. Teams who have this will win Championships.

Many who don't - can stop the run. My point here is that Stopping the Run on D and Establishing the run on O are two very important things. But any team who has assembled GRUNTs with an attitude can achieve those goals. But for the air game...you cannot do it by Discipline alone and grunt work...you need special talents involved. When that is the case in the NFL you will find HAVES and HAVE NOTS.

DIAM...for a guy who is a stickler on - not misrepresenting what you say you just pulled a big one.

"to say that Air Superiority vs Run Superiority WAS the way to do it is just wrong"

There is no VERSUS in my theory. I'm saying the key to a championship more often then not is Superiority in the Air Game. I never once say to ignore and or at the expense of the Running game...both offense and defense. Both are very important but it again will center on the execution of the Air Game. Not how often...70% run 30% pass...fine but if you are in a battle with the elite...that 30% pass better be darn efficient or else you will be on the losing end.

The only consistent change to this would be Bad Weather. But even then you will see some key plays determining the win as in a 3rd down success with a pass. As in several sacks, fumbles and INTs by one team. But obviously the Run efficiency is very key for a win in a bad weather game. This I will most definitely agree. But I'm talking about building a team to win a championship...not mudders.

And if you want to know Diam...I am right.

"anyhow .. just going to set the recored straight here .. as from the 50's through the mid 90's .. your DEAD WRONG ."

So you go by the theory that if a tree crashes down in the forest and nobody is there to hear it...The Crashing Sound simply doesn't exist.

Just you cannot see it...don't mean I'm wrong and you are right. Just that you are Helen Kellering it.

I apologize that you cannot see it. But don't blame that on me...

You can tell me about balance till you're blue in the face...or in the fingers from typing.

You don't get it.

It takes a special team to Dominate in the air. Not on the ground. I'm not saying to NOT dominate on the ground. I'm saying you succeed there...OK now what! Thats the EASY PART! What separates the men from the boys. Is dominating in the air game. Trust me (even though you won't cause you will always find it hard to change a thought process once you start thinking I'm wrong and you are right there is no change in you) but Domination in the air game both on O and in D is where the HOLY GRAIL is...just like it was in the 50's, 60's, 70's 80's and 90's...if you want to go back to the 30's n 40's - I'd have to agree with you there.

But actually it started with our Dynasty It was a staple of a Paul Brown team forever to change the NFL!!

I know what I'm talking about. Doesn't mean to cowtow...but I'm right and will continue to prove it.

And don't mistake that I'm saying...to compromise the RUN D or RUN O for the sake of the air game. Wrong. I'm saying you need to control the air if you are going to win! Controlling the ground although not often achieved...is not the harder of the two, the ability to achieve is at the hands of every team cause all the pieces involved are plentiful. Its the Air Game that will swing Parity...this I am saying.

JMHO

Oh n Spider...my apoligies for hijacking your thread.

If you wish for me to continue the process on another thread...just say the word. I'll cut n paste some of my posts and get one going. But its fine with me to continue the discussion here.

I don't think there was much else to say about BQ's day on Pat's show. And only for that reason did I continue. So if you object...my apologies and I'll move it elsewhere. Just give your blessings or not I'll follow your lead. I guess its like me being your roomate and you just broke up with a girl and now her n I are looking to hook up. If you don't want me to go out with her...I won't

I'm not going to get in a pissin match with U tabber ...

we don't agree ... I'll move on .. u can do whatever U please ...

but U ain't proved squat ...

U say anyone can run and stop the run .. THEN WHY COULD WE DO NIETHER LAST YEAR????? .. and so many other teams couldn't??? .. IF ITS SO EASY WHY DO SO MANY STRUGGLE AT IT YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT ...

and nice job just ignoring the D stats of the last 20 SB winners at stopping the run .. Naaa .. NO BIG DEAL CAUSE THATS SO EASY ...

and that was a rhetorical question about why we or so many other teams can never stop the run ... answer if U like ..

but I won't come see it cause no matter how U spin it like U did with our 3rd and long ineptness being a bigger reason to our D's failings than our inability to stop the run ... or how many cutsie little sayings u come up with .. like Diam don't get it and its not my fault he don't get it ..... or how many examples u come u with it won't change the facts ..... I can come up with the same SPIN and BS and EXAMPLES to prove my side of the argument ... like the following ...

the GREATEST AIR CONTOLLER IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME HAS NO RINGS AND a TOTAL of ONE APPEARANCE IN THAT GAME ... how can that be if AIR SUPERIORITY IS THE BE ALL END ALL??

ask anyone with a clue how to build a team and it starts with THE TRENCHES .... but yet according to U thats the easy part ..

and yes tabber I kknow that QB's LT's, CB's and pass rushers have SPECIAL SKILLS that are hard to find ... that does not make them MORE IMPORTANT .. it just teans there HARDER TO FIND cause less people posses those skills ....

Ya .. it must be all about air dominance ...

and I won't get in a pissin match and it ain't cause u will win .. its three fold ..

1. were not that far off in what were saying to get in a huge debate over ... and were really not ..

2. i do not have the time ..

3. U don't take it well when i prove u wrong ...

I don't think tab is very far off base, the more I think about it.

There were a lot of times where we had 3rd and long and 3rd and mediums and let the offense convert because our pass rush was horrid.

All the great defenses have one thing in common: yes they DO stop the run well, but their pass rush is the best in the league. And that gets them off the field.

I'm quite aware of why our D struggled this year ... nice to know your finally getting around to thinking about it ...

U gonna demand a seperate apology from them cause we couldn't rush the passer?? ... *L* ...


and I am well aware that NO PASS RUSH played a big part of that .. it KILLED US and kept us on the filed much more than we whould have been on it ..

THANKS FOR POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS MENzA ...

but heres the thing ... let see ..

We could NOT stop the RUN ...
We could NOT stop the PASS ...

We could NOT RUN
We could NOT PASS ...

so how the hell are U going to point at anything and say WOW .. THERES THE PROBLEM ... thats what killed us .. PICK ONE .. ANY OF THEM .. and your pretty much hitting the nail on the head cause we STUNK AT EVERYTHING .... *L* ..

using us as an example in this case is very lame ... I only brought us up cause tabber did and he also said that STOPPING the RUN and RUNNING AFFECTIVELY was the EASY PART .... all i was asking is if why is it so easy ... CAN SO FEW TEAMS DO ONE OR THE OTHER VERY GOOD AT ALL???? ...

its all Ken Dorsey's fault

actually, I wasn't really replying to your post...I was just tacking on thoughts in the direction the thread was going. I should've noted 'j/c'.

But I WILL reply to this thought of yours.

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We also had a rookied QB who did nuttin but hand the ball off .. we made the playoffs by winning our division at 8 - 8 ( I believe) .. no one believed we won it ...

we could obviously RUN THE BALL .... we had a QB who was inexperienced and learning ... we had not much of a passing game ...

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Yes, we DID win our division...and yes Bernie was a rookie...but it wasn't HIS fault that we didn't pass well. After the playoff loss to the Dolphins he said something to the effect: We don't posses an NFL quality passing playbook. His Miami passing book the year before was MUCH more sophisticated.

After that we became a VERY strong passing team with Slaughter, Langhorne, Brennan and Ozzie. AND our backs were good receivers. As I'm sure you know, we didn't have a thousand yard rusher from then until just recently but we were STILL in 3 of 4 championship games.

"I'm not going to get in a pissin match with U tabber ...but U ain't proved squat ."

and yet you still did. But as for proving...tough to prove anything to Hellen Keller. You keep your eyes n ears closed.

"THEN WHY COULD WE DO NIETHER LAST YEAR?"

As I explained to you we actually did in the Run D - what failed us was our HORRIFIC 3rd down pct. and mostly that was done in the air. We played a good enough run D where if we had the Awesome Pass D we would have dominated!

As for the Offense...Almost the exact same scenario. We put ourselves in very manageable 3rd down situations. But our 3rd down efficiency in our passing game was HORRIFIC... and really our overall passing attack crippled the Offense all year.

I can't remember us seeing 7 in the box all year.

So once again I have done nothing but prove it and you just choose to turn away.

What can I do?

"and nice job just ignoring the D stats of the last 20 SB winners at stopping the run"

1. What Stats?
2. Stats are for losers but if you open the stat variable it will be like opening Pandora's box cause Stats come out of the Kazoo in favor of my theory on this one.

the key stat in this theory is Average Yard Per Pass Play...On Offense and Defense. You can see clear cut Surperiority...but in the run stats you simply don't. There is no common denominator regarding the run powers.

And again I don't state you don't have them...obviously the more 3 n outs you get the less the team will have drives mounting up Run yardage...so don't go by total Yards. Thats not a clear cut show if a team is actually strong at running or stopping the run. Look again at average Yards per rush. That is the key stat to see actual prowess in the Run or Pass for that matter.

JMHO...but since you have a low value to stats I thought I'd let you know how to use it - Just bustin your chops...lol But seriously if you wish to do stat research ( I know my protege Ammo now will )

Yards per carry Offense and Defense
Yards per pass Offense n Defense.

Thems the key to what I am stating here. You dominate in the passing end - success is just about an automatic. Running end...it goes all over the place. And Running without the Pass...forget about it. Pass without the run...still in the running.

Check it out. Stats aren't always for losers. You actually can learn somethings through them. Especially Tendencies...and Theories

JMHO...just don't get so angry when I'm right