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I agree. Like I've said before, it really doesn't seem that difficult to figure out which college players are good and fit into your scheme. A GM really raises his stock, though, if he can hit on those "reaches" in the late rounds. But, in all reality, that's pretty tough to do.
What's more important is structuring contracts to fit into the cap and leaving enough room to bring in other help. I think a GM can make or break a team in that regard alone.
The Browns have an extensive scouting unit, just like all the other teams. We should be able to find guys we want or need. Just because Savage would go to 90 college games a day doesn't mean that he was able to pick out all these diamonds in the rough. His first and second round picks were guys who would be pretty darn easy to find.
Lends itself to the theory that coaching was indeed the problem,....as Willie has intimated.
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if they are the ones who are behind all this stuff, then Lerner is alienating prospective people by these guys..
Jim Brown, perhaps the greatest Running Back of all time... wait,, take out the word Perhaps... he IS the greatest running back of all time.
Bernie Kosar, Local Hero, Smart guy that managed to find a way with the help of Art Modell to manipulate the system in order to play for his home town team. He lead this team to 3 AFC championships and this town adores him.
Any GM that comes here and doesn't recognize the value of such people is an idiot and I don't want him..
By the same token, those two guys, as good as they once were on the field and as smart as they are now off the field, can't be allowed to circumvent the mangement team that Lerner puts in place.
And frankly, I'm not sure they ever did. I can only remember once in the last 4 years where one of them spoke up publically about any major issue., That was Brown when he weighted in in Savages favor over the whole Collins thing.
Otherwise, all we've heard is from Kosar on the Preseason broadcasts and occasionally from Brown.
What happens behind closed doors may be something else all together..
Randy does have to seperate the two situations.. and maybe, since he was a rookie owner back then, perhaps he's learned that lesson as well.
But seriously, if having Kosar and Brown peering over your shoulder bothers you,, then I don't want you here.. (not you, but any GM or Coach that feels that way)
#GMSTRONG
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Well, that as well as the possibility that Savage wasn't getting the players that RAC felt would fit into his scheme. GM problems + coaching problems + injuries + underperformance = 4-12 season
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I just don't get it Spectre, you start out with....."it seems to me", and then state in the next paragraph......"what happened instead was....". How do you know what happened? How do you know that Pioli didn't refuse to budge from what demands he had made? It seems to me that that could be a VERY real possibility. Pioli has it made in NE and maybe he's not sure he wants to leave. Soooo.....what he does is say OK, I'll leave NE but ONLY FOR THIS, THIS, and THIS, and he actually means it?
Kansas City isn't going to give him full control of things and yet he's still interested in that job... why? Why did Pioli pull out of contention for us? Why did Rich McKay pull his name from the job? Why aren't we willing to wait two weeks to at least give Shanahan a listen when we're willing to wait almost as long for Kokinis? Why did Schwartz cancel an interview that was set up early on? Why is it that we're the only franchise whose thought process has been absolutely obvious to everyone? Ask yourself questions like that to see if Lerner played this process out to its fullest or if he just fell in love with Mangini and went from there.
We're... we're good?
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Kansas City isn't going to give him full control of things and yet he's still interested in that job... why?
Where have you seen that they aren't? Where have you seen that he isn't still interested in our's?
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Why did Pioli pull out of contention for us?
I didn't know he had  ?
Maybe we just don't want him for what he is asking for?
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Why did Rich McKay pull his name from the job?
I didn't think he did, I thought he just said something to the effect of .....why don't you do your due diligence and then if you still want to interview me,....well....then we'll talk.
Maybe he likes what he has started in Atlanta as well?
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Why aren't we willing to wait two weeks to at least give Shanahan a listen when we're willing to wait almost as long for Kokinis?
Maybe because Shannahan isn't sure what he wants to do.......even if he wants to coach at all and if we wait two weeks we could lose out on a younger coach that would do whatever we ask to coach here?
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Why did Schwartz cancel an interview that was set up early on?
Did he cancel, or did he put us off because his team is still in the playoffs? I honestly don't know the answer to that one. Has he interviewed with anyone else?
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Why is it that we're the only franchise whose thought process has been absolutely obvious to everyone?
Maybe it's because Lerner saw something that REALLY impressed him and he wanted to jump before someone else did? Plus, if it's that obvious, why the heck isn't he signed allready?
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Ask yourself questions like that to see if Lerner played this process out to its fullest or if he just fell in love with Mangini and went from there
I have.....and you know what........I don't know what has happened. I am not privy to info such as coachB and some others on here.
What I do know is that alot of what people were asking for seems to be found in Mangini.
Again, Spectre, I DON'T KNOW if Mangini is the right guy. It just strikes me as funny that some of the same people that asked for discipline, experience, cleveland roots, are now critiquing the one guy that seems to have all of those.
Plus, and maybe I am reading to much into your posts, but you seem to write like you know exactly what has happened allready when I don't think you really know more than the rest of us, myself included.  
Born and breed with OSU, App. State alumni, but bleed orange and brown.
Go ARMY......Beat Navy!!!!!!
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Bernie Kosar, Local Hero, Smart guy that managed to find a way with the help of Art Modell to manipulate the system in order to play for his home town team. He lead this team to 3 AFC championships and this town adores him.
Actually, he led us to the championship games only, but we never won an AFC championship................but I think you already knew that.
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I've just done a ton of reading, including insider sites and the fact that Lerner has preferred Mangini from the getgo has been hidden to no one. Supposedly Schwartz cancelled his interview because he didn't want to waste his time interviewing for a job he couldn't get, especially when his team was in the playoffs. That's how bad it's gotten and no other organization has been that transparent with this. Who are the Jets leaning to hire as their head coach? The Broncos? The Lions? Yet, sources out there not only know our head coach, they know he's picking his staff. See what I'm saying? How well does that reflect on Lerner or the organization?
I don't dislike Mangini because he's a disciplinarian who is very organized. That's what makes me like him. I just think about how it was set up before Mangini - we were looking at Cowher, Pioli, McKay, etc. and then as soon as he came into the picture, everyone else's name seemed to go out the window. If Lerner brought an experienced GM in here, did due diligence and in the end, came up with Mangini's name, I'd be satisfied. However, from the moment before his conference with reporters when he was told about Mangini being fired and supposedly he lit up and got excited, the process has derailed.
That may not be a problem to anyone else but it is to me. I want our next head coach to come from a lot of debate, discussion, dialogue and analysis from top football minds. I'm done putting the cart before the horse like we did with Romeo. Instead, it seems this decision is from coming from one source only, and that source may be the least knowledgeable about football in the front office.
We're... we're good?
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Bernie Kosar, Local Hero, Smart guy that managed to find a way with the help of Art Modell to manipulate the system in order to play for his home town team. He lead this team to 3 AFC championships and this town adores him.
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Actually, he led us to the championship games only, but we never won an AFC championship................but I think you already knew that.
Yes, I meant 3 championship GAMES... not Championships.... Picky Picky Picky 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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JB doesn't know squat about running a team..and he shoots his mouth off too much..advisor..  ..probably some think he's a idiot..he needs to keep quiet..period.. Bernie..could be allowing his ego to interfer also..if he 's going to give advice..it should be very very objective.. Brown BTW..as opened his pie hole about several issues..
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I like Bernie and JB and respect what they did on the field, but if they are getting in the way of us getting who we want in here then Randy needs to put a stop to that.
I agree with Attack JB does run his mouth a lot more than he should JMO
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Pioli didnt reject us, Randy told him to take a hike because Pioli doesnt want Manigless. Nobody is gettin the GM job unless they will come under Mangini.
Basically, we are giving full power and control to Mangini.....and there are alot of people fine with that...in fact....some of the same ones that got mad when people were talking about Cowher or Shannahan getting full control.
If the GM is under the HC then who runs the whole show? hhhmmm
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Who's your source for that little tidbit? Or are you yet again stating your opinion as fact? The only thing that has been reported is that Pioli's demands were too much for ANY owner to accept and that Pioli wants to bring Ferentz in as HC. So, how did you find this new fact out? I know you probably didn't and it's just your troll like opinion, but I just wanted to point out to anyone else reading that might not know your history of doing so that it's just a slanted and (almost always) erroneous speculation based on nothing.
Spectre, first of all, this isn't "our" organization, it's Lerner's. If he wants to draw names from a hat, he can. Second, Pioli has never withdrawn from consideration. Neither has McKay. Third, how do you know who Lerner has and has not talked to about coaching and GM candidates? Fourth, the Jets top choice was widely reported and they failed to get anywhere with him because Cowher wanted to meet with the owner, but he was out of the country, so Cowher withdrew from consideration. Alot of speculation and asumptions are being made and done so with little to know facts to guide them. I know it's typical on the board, but it's still pretty sad.
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it's just a slanted and (almost always) erroneous speculation based on nothing.
You got a link?
Wait I might understand....
You mean like you going around the last 6 months saying that the Browns were pleased with RAC and Phil? 
No I didn't state my opinion as fact, like some....but if you use common sense...and read what Randy and local media has said about how he feels about Mangini.
Who would know about Mangini better than Pioli? Billichick?
Using REASON...Pioli said no to Randy's suggestion of Mangini...and Randy didnt offer him the job. Now, we are waiting until Sunday to see if Kok will work under Mangini...
Randy didnt like what Pioli told him, he has his Idea, he wants another Bellichick. Pioli wanted McDaniels or Ferentz. If I had to pick between the two of them...I think Piloi might know a tad more than the soccer team owner.
Hopefully Pioli also told him what a stupid idea it was to try and keep RAC on the staff, as that is a nice big fat ticket to a split locker room.
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JB doesn't know squat about running a team.
I can agree with that.. that's not why he's there.. at least that's not my understanding. My understanding is that he's around to teach these young players what it was like being a Brown in the early years. I don't have a clue how much store Lerner puts into what Brown tells him.
For that matter, I have no idea what Kosar tells him either.
Just a whole lotta supposition.. no facts..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Ahhhhh, once again you resort to lying to try to make those that have common sense look bad in an attempt to make your irrational thoughts look good. The local medai, as well as national media has reported that Pioli's demands were so unreasonable that "NO OWNER" could agree to them. They have also reported that Pioli's "top choice" for HC was Ferentz. If you want me to copy and paste those aritcles that are in this very thread, I will. Now, you please post a link where a source said that Lerner rejected Pioli because he didn't want Mangini. I'll be waiting,but you won't provide one because there isn't one. Using reason? Common sense says that EVERYTHING that has been reported has stated that Pioli's demenda were beyond what ANY OWNER would agree to. So, you think Bill and Pioli are going to have a fair and unbiased opinion of the man responsible for EXPOSING THEM FOR CHEATING and humiliating them? Yeah, that's using solid "reason". It's funny you talk about how stupid Lerner is for doing something you claim no other owner would do, with nothing to back that up but your own opinion, and want him to do something that sources have reported that NO OTHER OWNER WOULD DO to hire Pioli. Keep posting. There is no substance whatsover in them, but man, they are hilarious to read. 
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Using reason? Common sense says that EVERYTHING that has been reported has stated that Pioli's demenda were beyond what ANY OWNER would agree to.
When I was at lunch, Chris Mortenson said on Tirico and Van Pelt's radio show that his "sources" inside the Browns organization have said that is completely untrue and that Pioli was very professional and the terms of any deal or any "demands" never even came up from either side....
That's the word on the street. 
yebat' Putin
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So lemme get it straight...everyone in the NFL will forgo a good HC because they wanna punish him for ratting on Bill?
And Pioli will take a chance with a "lesser" HC and put himself is worse position?
LOL!
Bottom Line (again) no football person want Mangiless...NOBODY...but luck for Eric, the Browns are run by someone who has zippo clue to football (well real American football) and he might get job, if he can find a puppet GM.
Can some fans take th blinders off, We are about to GIVE CONTROL OF OUR TEAM TO Erick Mangini, its just backdoor control.
But hey, atleast "he's a HC with experience" and hes not a "college coach" afterall, that simplistic veiw is all that is necessary right?
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I guess on it depends on who Mort talked to. You can be very professional but still be staunch in your "demands" (and that's not a negative term like it might be portrayed). I have heard from within that Pioli wanted total control and wanted Ferentz as HC. Lerner doesn't want to give in to the total control afer the situation with Savage and is very leery of a college HC and would have to be "sold" on him. Either Pioli isn't a good salesmen or Lerner's bigger concern is another Savage situation.
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When I was at lunch, Chris Mortenson said on Tirico and Van Pelt's radio show that his "sources" inside the Browns organization have said that is completely untrue and that Pioli was very professional and the terms of any deal or any "demands" never even came up from either side....
I wonder who those sources are..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/06/09 04:14 PM.
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I gotta say that normally a team should pick the GM first but in this case, I believe, Mangini to be a steal. If we can land him as the HC then we can find a GM that will work together with Mangini and bring true continuity to the Browns.
Marty is an interesting GM possibility but I don't really know? I truly want somebody at GM who is good at drafting talent. I have no clue who that is besides Bill Parcells. (yes I'd take him as GM in a heartbeat.)
I have to admit that I'm getting nervous with each day that passes without any word on a new GM or HC. I don't want the Browns to miss the boat on the right candidtes for the jobs. Otherwise it will be more of the same.
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Spectre, first of all, this isn't "our" organization, it's Lerner's. If he wants to draw names from a hat, he can.
I know, don't depress me. I would love us to have a Green Bay stock system even though it's disallowed by league rules. However, that doesn't mean as a consumer of his product I can't express discontent with how he's choosing to assemble it.
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Second, Pioli has never withdrawn from consideration. Neither has McKay.
Not officially, but when Pioli started talking to a team that wasn't really even in the picture before in serious talks while we faded into the background and McKay pushed his interview back indefinitely, it's essentially the same thing. What are the odds either suddenly pops back into this picture?
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Third, how do you know who Lerner has and has not talked to about coaching and GM candidates?
I'm not speculating who he's talked to other than this inner circle and other league sources. What I am saying is that it's very clear who is calling these shots and making these decisions. For example, Keenan has been brought along but hasn't even been in some of the interviews (like the Pioli one). Lerner is clearly making this decision this time around.
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Fourth, the Jets top choice was widely reported and they failed to get anywhere with him because Cowher wanted to meet with the owner, but he was out of the country, so Cowher withdrew from consideration. Alot of speculation and asumptions are being made and done so with little to know facts to guide them. I know it's typical on the board, but it's still pretty sad.
Cowher and Pioli are two names so big in stature that you can't help but find out who has/is pursuing them intently. However, referring to the search now, what organization has been as incredibly transparent as ours in their hiring process? I know of coaches teams are interviewing, but I don't know any team ready to stamp their hire as early in the process as us, I don't know any other team with a candidate assembling a coaching staff before he's even gotten the job, nor do I know of any other team that has had candidates turn away because they don't want to waste their time with a process that they know the conclusion. To me, that speaks of a very poorly run process.
Coach - if you have any inside information that states Lerner isn't in a froth over the thought of hiring Mangini, so much so that the process derailed once he pursued him, then please give it to me so I can change my mind. Until then, I can only go by what I've read, and every single thing says the exact same thing - Lerner loves Mangini and is putting all he has into him.
We're... we're good?
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Personally, I think they are gonna miss the boat if they decide to go with Mangini......I just don't see the thought process behind it......but like you said, they need to get it done already....... 
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Roscoe5319/Marty2.jpg) "Winning is not a some time thing, it's an all the time thing" ....-Lombardi-
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Why do I get the feeling that NE is putting this crap out to make it appear like it's one sided?
Why? Cuz Mort PROVES what you coachb are saying is crap.
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So lemme get it straight...everyone in the NFL will forgo a good HC because they wanna punish him for ratting on Bill?
And Pioli will take a chance with a "lesser" HC and put himself is worse position?
LOL!
Bottom Line (again) no football person want Mangiless...NOBODY...but luck for Eric, the Browns are run by someone who has zippo clue to football (well real American football) and he might get job, if he can find a puppet GM.
Can some fans take th blinders off, We are about to GIVE CONTROL OF OUR TEAM TO Erick Mangini, its just backdoor control.
But hey, atleast "he's a HC with experience" and hes not a "college coach" afterall, that simplistic veiw is all that is necessary right?
And what is this vast NFL knowledge you have to say Lerner is making the wrong decisions?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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If Lerner brought an experienced GM in here, did due diligence and in the end, came up with Mangini's name, I'd be satisfied.
Ref's can we have this sentence framed, stored in an archive and brought back in 4 years?
That, in a nutshell, is what is wrong here, and what the solution is...its real simple.
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U have yet to answer..has anyone been hired yet?
All we have heard are interviews..and that Pioli was offered a position..
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So, first you claim that you interpret local media into something and they're reliable. Now, Mort has made a claim and the local media, which has reported the same things I've heard, is "crap"? Man, your hypocrisy knows no limits does it? You have resorted to lying, using double standards....what's next?
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I gotta say that normally a team should pick the GM first but in this case, I believe, Mangini to be a steal. If we can land him as the HC then we can find a GM that will work together with Mangini and bring true continuity to the Browns.
Let me play devil's advocate here.
If Mangini is truly a steal, shouldn't a good GM be able to determine that from a pool of candidates, that he's truly the best to offer?
If that's the case, why not hire a GM in the first place and then have the GM (who knows football more than Randy) take his time, interview a pool of candidates, and determine whether Mangini is a steal and the best man for the job or not? After all, have you heard of another team even requesting to interview him?
To me, that's where I fault Lerner. It seems that he went in wanting to put a knowledgeable GM in place, conduct preliminary interviews with head coaches, and then go from there. Something changed when he interviewed Mangini, and he went from putting a GM in place first to build this team to putting himself in the place to hire Mangini first and build around him. I don't know why, but I think we have the process completely backwards and that is still upsetting to me.
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"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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What I have been told, and I posted it before, was that Lerner was intrigued by Mangini from the second he was told about it during an interview. Why wouldn't he be? The guy had 2 winning season in 3 and was let go because his aging QB (who I have defended and admired on here for 3 years) hit the wall and played DQ like football. Pioli was the first choice for GM and Lerner wanted to see if he and Mangini could work together. Pioli wanted full control of the football operations, ie Savage power, and wanted to bring Ferentz in as HC (funny how he hasn't interviewed one candidate, has his choice made, but he would do more than Lerner who has interviewed 4 or 5 already). Lerner is leery of giving total control again after being burnt and was negotiating that. Pioli (and this is opinion/speculation by those that I talk to) had the opportunity interview and try to get that power in KC and if not, at least use it as a bargaining chip. Lerner didn't want to miss out on other candidates and continued the search. I'm not sure how any of that casts Lerner in a bad light. He wants his franchise to succeed long term and is doing what he thinks is best. I see no fault in what he's doing.
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Why would he instantly settle on Ferentz ..when he said he wanted someone with experience..even if he felt Pioli would make a great GM?
He can't do that and I said it's shortsided of Pioli to instantly name Ferentz as his choice and not interviewing anyone else..
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Exactly. I agree with you. That's my point. Pioli was focused on Ferentz. Yet Menza is complaining how Lerner focused on Mangini. Guess the double standard is ok if all you want to do is complain and troll. Lerner's not a stupid man. He made a mistake before in the marriage of Savage and RAC (though seperately either could have been a good hire IMO). He is going to make sure he gets a GM and coach on the same page and the coach is experienced. That doesn't guarantee success, but it gives you much better odds no matter what some on here say. Keep up the good work guys. I am going to go for a bit. All this laughing at Menza has wore me out and I need to rest. Tomorrow's chemo day so I have to be ready.....then again, they say laughter is the best medicine. 
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280 |
Isn't it part of Pioli's contract that he can't leave the Pats unless its a "Full control of football operations positions"? Isn't anything less considered a lateral move? I thought I heard that somewhere so that would be pretty much non-negotiable....
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227 |
I guess my problem comes from the complete change in direction that's taken place. The thinking at the start was that we bring in one guy with football experience that has succeeded in the past and let him fix the organization. Whether it be Cowher at coach or Pioli/McKay in the front office, it seemed imperative to bring in someone who knew how to win and let him work. With a guy like Cowher, we could've had less experience at GM because Cowher's experience made up for it. Same thing with Pioli and McKay with a rookie coach.
Instead, somehow we've gone from that to having Randy Lerner as our big decision maker, choosing a coach with 3 years of experience at his position and 0 playoff wins, who was just fired with no other teams expressing interest. Then, in turn he gets to choose his GM candidate who isn't even Baltimore's #2 to come in and run things. We've essentially turned a search for experience into what we had (experience-wise) in Romeo and Phil + a 3 year coaching stint. I'm not satisfied with that and I'm surprised so many are.
I won't mind Mangini as head coach. He certainly has his shortcomings in terms of good working relationships, in game management and soft defense, but he brings more discipline and organization than Romeo ever could provide.
The problem to me is, he wasn't the result of a long, thorough process... he was the process of Randy interviewing 1 GM and 4 coaches (including Mel Tucker who was probably a Rooney rule interview unless Randy fell in love with his porous defense) before making his decision. So, in my eyes, we took what should've been a long search for experience and turned it into an owner getting googly eyes for a coach and handing him the keys.
After 4 years, I would've hoped Randy would aim higher than that.
We're... we're good?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
Yes I believe so..but if you're going to give a new GM full control, he's got to hire the right coach..and in this case we need a guy with experience..not a guy who's used to dealling with college kids..
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280 |
How can you hire a GM and say you gave him "full control" if you are then going to put parameters and stipulations on who he is or isn't allowed to hire as HC? Isn't that, by definition, less than full control?
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227 |
Quote:
Hey Spectre! Miss Cleo can probably predict our first down call on O. Hell-o, everyone else around me and me did too about 90% of the time. would be funny if it wasn't buried under a pile of pathetic! Miss Cleo for FO somewhere. 
True lol. Wonder what kind of looks Chud is going to get after a season like this past one.
We're... we're good?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659
Poser
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Poser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659 |
I understand where you're coming from, and shouldn't have replied to you in the same post as Menza because you are debating and he is trolling. Sorry if you felt I was lumping you with him (not saying you did, just making sure).
Anyway, the problem is that Pioli has no experience in these things either. He basically has been a gatherer of information and gives it to Bill. He has never hired a coach and, from media reports and from what I've heard both, he was focused on bringing in Ferentz without interviewing anyone else already, let alone 4 (at least Tucker was an interview LOL).
I think Lerner did learn some things. He learned the coach and GM have to be working together and wants to insure that will happen and he also wants an experienced coach.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
Logic would tell you not to hire the guy if the HC he chooses is not a fit for the team.. So you don't tightrope that line unless you fight the right combo. Thats what you find out when you interview them..who they want to bring in.. So no...if I'm giving somone full power..then they , in turn have to make the right choices or else I don't want them.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659
Poser
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Poser
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,659 |
I don't know what Pioli's contract with NE states, but unless it is in their current contracts, (like Coke has), a director of player personnel does not have to be given "full control" to have the title of GM be considered a promotion.
Now, "full control" is not something that most GMs receive. Look around the league and you'll find many instances where they do not.
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