|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 105
Practice Squad
|
OP
Practice Squad
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 105 |
I know we acquired talent by trading those picks, but still: there's a lot to be said from injecting young, fast talent to what was already a 10 win team.
Some might be flippant and say that Romeo wouldnt play a rookie (certainly Jerome Harrison's limited touches are a continuing enigma) but DQ, Kam, Joe, and EW all started from day one and Brodney was our nickelbacker from his first game on.
Would we be better with a Felix Jones or Antoine Cason?
T_
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849 Likes: 12
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849 Likes: 12 |
We got who we got......
Let's focus on Tennessee, and seeing if the guys we did get in the draft, see if they can contribute.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12
Rookie
|
|
Rookie
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12 |
I honestly don't believe Savages drafting is all that bad. I think the problem is we don't have the coaching to harness the talent and turn draftees into NFL caliber talent. Take Ngata for instance who is being talked about in another thread. He may not have looked like such a force in Cleveland and Wimbley may have been a beast in Rex Ryans defense. Baltimore would have probably coached Wimbley up and put him in a position to succeed. Woodley for Pittsburgh I think would have looked very average in Cleveland and Dqwell Jackson would probably look like a stud over there. I blame coaching first and foremost.
Mel Tucker is a bad defensive coordinator but I feel he was one of the better position coaches on this team when he was corner back coach. It seemed we could plug in a corner back and they would fare pretty decently. Now he doesn't have time to coach up corner backs cause he has many other responsibilities. I just can't blame Phil for these draft picks. I feel they have the talent but its not being polished by our coaching staff. Big time example is Jerome Harrison. Heck he shows time and again he's ready. I'll tell you right now the Steelers wouldn't have him only touching the ball 5 times a game. Parker isn't much big if at all than Harrison, kind of the same style runner and Pittsburgh turned Parker into a feature back.. Gosh I hate the Steelers. If only we landed a coach and a staff that knew what they were doing. I'm bitter.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 327
1st String
|
|
1st String
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 327 |
I disagree. The defensive linemen we picked up are quality starters and one of them SHOULD go to the pro-bowl this year.
Ruining QB's since 1999.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227 |
No. We got players ready to immediately step in and start, something that you just don't always get from the draft, even from the first two rounds. If anything, it actually helped us take a step forward as it was a move entirely for the present.
Now... the problem is that it's going to prevent us from taking steps forward in the future, because there are a lot of positions right now (RB, OLB, MLB, RG, etc) where we have an aging veteran in the lineup with no young backup waiting in the wings ready to take over full-time duty. That's where the lack of picks is going to hurt us... the best teams in the NFL build through the draft because they have a constant flow of young talent to tap when the older guys get long in the tooth. We barely have that at any position and it'll be up to Savage to fix that for this upcoming year.
We're... we're good?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 Likes: 147
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 Likes: 147 |
Quote:
the best teams in the NFL build through the draft because they have a constant flow of young talent to tap when the older guys get long in the tooth.
And I think we are working toward that system, but we had too many holes to fill quickly, that it wasn't possible to just draft them.
As someone else above said, we have talent, it just needs to be coached. Just because someone is a pro-bowler on a winning team, doesn't mean they would be more than cleat cleaner in Cleveland.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,825 Likes: 158
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,825 Likes: 158 |
Quote:
I know we acquired talent by trading those picks, but still: there's a lot to be said from injecting young, fast talent to what was already a 10 win team.
Depends on how you want to look at it I suppose.. we did get Quinn for that first pick and we got Rogers and Williams for the next two picks and a player.. so my thought is no,, that's not what killed us this year. But that's JMO...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 880
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 880 |
Part of the reason for all of the pre-season hype was due to the acquisitions that Phil Savage made in the off season. What would our D-line look like right now without Rogers and Williams? It would have more holes then swiss cheese. And had he not drafted Quinn in the previous year, who would have been our backup behind DA after he flopped? This board would have gone off, if Dorsey was our second QB behind Anderson.
If anything, those moves that Savage made gave this team hope for high expectations for this year only to disappoint us. We've seen what Rogers can do, he's been our defensive MVP and now people like you come on here and question that move? We haven't been given a chance to evaluate what Quinn can do yet and Williams has been adequate at least.
So to answer your question: "Re: Did lack of a first day pick prevent us from taking a step forward?". My answer is "No".
Last edited by FargoFan; 12/04/08 12:20 PM.
And the next head coach is ......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683 |
I agree with you Chosen. It's easy to say "we could have had", but when you look at the players we drafted and how they were ranked etc, the drafts seem more than sound to me. I wonder how the players we have would have done in other systems and vice versa.
I think we try to put a lot of square pegs in round holes here. We have a group of, in my humble opinion, 4-3 linebackers. In our system, they under perofrm. We finally have some true 3-4 linemen, but the depth is pretty weak.
Then there is the coaching aspect. TO does fine in Dallas, Moss is a star in NE, even Plax almost made it through a season with Coughlin, I know, that's a weak example, but the fact is, on the field, he performed. What could Edwards, Wimbley, Leon and our safeties do on a different team. Could it be part scheme and part coaching? I personally think it is.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 553
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 553 |
quinn/rogers/williams vs. ??/??/??
so far we have a pro bowl caliber Dlineman, a hurt Dlineman and a qb investment.
i don't think it's likely we could have aquired all this in one draft. rogers is so good i can't be sorry phil got these guys. that was a home run.
when does the draft forum come up again? lol
A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams.
John Barrymore
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 683 |
I think Savage has done a good job with draft day trade value and off season pickups. All I'm saying is saying "we could have had" is not a simple as it may sound. Troy P may be warming the bench for the colts, not really their type of player. Jamarcus R might be lighting it up for The Giants.
It's a formula between right player, best value and what options are available for trade. Look at what we gave up under Butch for Winslow. Was the threat real? Maybe, maybe not, still value was not good. Look at what savage has done, good value and I feel like we're the ones setting the traps now.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Quote:
Quinn for that first pick and we got Rogers and Williams for the next two picks and a player.. so my thought is no,, that's not what killed us this year. But that's JMO...
Solid acquisitions. No way do we do better had we kept our draft picks, IMO.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,496 Likes: 166
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,496 Likes: 166 |
There are so many OTHER reasons this season has been a failure... lack of first day pick is not one of them...
<><
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
You force somebody to pick just ONE reason, and I believe the consensus would be coaching.
I hate to see the guy lose his job, but something needs to change. Either he gets better at coaching or the talent level has to improve very, very drastically. I just don't think that the talent level, at THIS level, is that different from team to team.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,149 Likes: 833
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,149 Likes: 833 |
I think with our LBers it IS that drastic a difference. These guys are almost always a step slow, can't tackle, can't cover TE's and can barely play the run. They can't get pressure on a QB and they can't get off blocks and they don't cover ground that well.
The LBers being as bad as they are leave the entire middle of the field open for exploit and puts pressure on the other two parts of our D, mostly making us soft at the LoS, forcing us to bring a S up to help play the run or help with TE's.
The single biggest difference 'tween Pittsburgh's D and ours is the Linebackers. I see little to no difference in their DLine vs. ours. With the exception of Polamalu... ditto their secondary, it's nothing special at all... and I'd take Wright over any of their CB's. With good LBers in front of them, Pool & Jones may be one helluva tandem. The difference is the linebackers.
They are a gaping weakness that is also probably the worst possible weakness you can have in a 3-4. Getting off blockers, stopping the run, covering TE's and pressuring the QB are all the domain of the LBer in the 3-4... and ours can't do any of it with any degree of success or consistency.
What has destroyed the most us this year? The run, TE's in the seam and slot receivers.... mainly plays in the 8-15 yard range as offenses methodically pick us apart and march down the field. Almost all of the big plays against us started in that 8-15 yard range.... then became big plays because of missed tackles; but it was weakness in that middle range that has killed us.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,283 Likes: 868
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,283 Likes: 868 |
One bad thing I've noticed about our linebackers, which was a little better against the Colts is the level of tenacity. If you look at the Steelers or Ravens D and watch the linebackers flow toward the ball carrier, they do it with good angles and a vengeance.
When you look at our defense, I feel like our LB's just kinda wait for the play to come to them and then slap the dude on the butt as he runs by.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,530 Likes: 3
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,530 Likes: 3 |
You said it plp the LB's indeed stink.
With that said though, how much of an impact did the new line actually have for us. I say not much of one. In hindsight we would have been worlds better to have concentrated on the LB position over the line. In defense of pretty much all of us, we thought the line was the killer, turns out the LBers played a huge roll as well.
On the bright side though I think DQ is at least servicable, and I think or hope we can get someone in the middle with him that can actually contribute we may have the makings of a respectable LB group. The inside is where I beieve we are hurting the most.
I know fans like to rag on the guy but WM has had an outstanding season for us this year.
KW has been a huge disappointment. It woud be a help to him to have a player like CW next to him coupled with a good outside pass rusher from the other side. I have always said this though great players show up no matter what, KW don't show up, he is what he is!!
The most encouraging thing though thru the defeats is we are not a hopeless case. There is talent on the defense and on the team. We need to continue to improve the talent in some key positions, and we need to improve the depth of the team.
As much as anything injuries have held this team back this year. I think we all know and except them as being a part of the game. The problem with the Browns is that for the most part our depth is really really bad. We go from the starter and drop off the face of the earth.
Back to the hope thing though, God almighty above if a change does come have the change be of the sort that the new regime continues to build off whats here, please don't blow it up, we are close to being pretty damned good.
JMHO
BTTB
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,149 Likes: 833
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,149 Likes: 833 |
I think the decision of which one to address was kinda made for us this past offseason. There wasn't much available if I recall correctly in terms of LBers that we could have brought in and made solid impact in a 3-4, however, Rogers & Williams.. .now there has been some realy impact and they were available for a GREAT price. So, it may not have been the ideal choice in routes to go, but I believe that it was the right one for the time if for no other reason than it is what was available.... and Rogers' talent level alone for how little we paid to get him... that was a freaking STEAL. DQ will be serviceable, Peek (if healthy) should be as well. Wimbley will still have a spot here and Alex Hall definitely will. I think Priority #1 will be the ILB spot next to DQ.... then an OLB and then DQ's spot and/or a CB. Beau Bell will hopefully get more time these last four games, so we can get an idea of what he brings... my guess is that he currently doesn't bring enough to get a whole lot of time right now though and most of what we see from him will be next spring/summer. Quote:
As much as anything injuries have held this team back this year. I think we all know and except them as being a part of the game. The problem with the Browns is that for the most part our depth is really really bad. We go from the starter and drop off the face of the earth.
And that is gospel right there.... and a big part of why we're not quite there yet. You see it when we rotate DLine. Without Robaire Smith, when Rogers comes out, it is Rubin and/or Leonard in there... and we just do NOT get the same degree of push. Not bad for a rookie and a 2nd year kid, but not good. We'll have Robaire back next year and Rubin will have a year of offseason conditioning and Leonard will have a full year of experience.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136 |
As compared to BQ? Corey Williams and another 2nd round pick in Shaun Rogers. I say another 2nd rounder cause we gave a 3rd round pick AND BODDEN so to me we moved up from our 2nd round to get a talent like Rogers.
How much forward could you possibly imagine from our draft.
What NT would we have been able to get from the draft? Corey Williams despite what some have said on this board. IS A STUD. We have just seen OK play from him due to his shoulder being hurt - ALL season. Had a great game recently so maybe its finally healing or that knowing the system better makes him a little more effective???
But we got these guys...READY TO PLAY...one a multiple Pro-Bowler the other actually Franchised by their former team. I don't see how possibly we could have done better impact from the draft.
Felix Jones instead of BQ??? Of course both are on IR.
just to answer your proposed question. Now I don't think we retarded in impact of new players to the team due to NO PICKS until the 4th round. Actually I would have loved to have had Bell n Rucker not sustain injuries and maybe they would be providing us IMPACT from this 08 draft as well.
Nah, what happened this year was a combo of things. Tough early schedule, tough early injuries. Home field advantage taken away as the Crowd just seemed disappointed after our start!
DA struggling early, Concussion? Timing cause of the 4 week layoff?
BE really struggling...I'm telling you the little I saw of him early on - he looked REAL SHARP...I MEAN REAL SHARP...I know this has built up into a mental thing...but honestly I think that sliced up foot on that STUPID RACE did a lot more damage than people think. Maybe not physically (although I think he could have take a couple of more weeks to heal) but more so mentally. He was so Sharp...injury...then a different BE??? It happens and it happened to us.
Losing Tucker hurt...luckily we had Hadnot all season.
Steinbach hurt much of the early season.
Just a combo of things got us going on the wrong foot and we have lost so many games that we should have won. Where I can honestly say we didn't get beat, we beat ourselves.
I think we did just fine getting BQ, Corey and Rogers from our 08 draft.
JMHO and better impact than anything we could have picked up.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
I think we did just fine getting BQ, Corey and Rogers from our 08 draft.
JMHO and better impact than anything we could have picked up.
I agree, Ying. 
The verdict remains out on Quinn, but the question revolves around the PRESENT, not the FUTURE. As a result, it's hard to imagine a 3rd round rookie and a 2nd round rookie making the kind of impact that would help this team.
So, to answer the question, No, the lack of a 1st day selection has not impacted this team whatsoever.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,046 Likes: 137
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,046 Likes: 137 |
Hindsight is the wellspring of self-inflicted misery. Other guys we didn't take in drafts are outperforming who we took. To paraphrase RAC, we are what we are today and for the ... Sunday. However, I do believe we needed some of what we got, and we need more. I wouldn't want it to be a habit this Savage undrafting thang, because we simply, again in hindsight gave way too much for way too little. As a caution (seems I am on both sides of the fence, but bear with me), the Jerome Syndrome is proof of the problem in judgment. Past actions can be solid predictors of future performance IMO. They demand review and reconsideration with good reason for future judgment (some folks seem to learn from mistakes, while we seem doomed to repeat them sadly). My point being, no rookie, no matter how good can contribute from the sidelines beyond a skirt and pompoms. Play 'em if they can contribute; I want us out of the "projects" approach.  
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
Quote:
I think with our LBers it IS that drastic a difference. These guys are almost always a step slow, can't tackle, can't cover TE's and can barely play the run. They can't get pressure on a QB and they can't get off blocks and they don't cover ground that well.
The LBers being as bad as they are leave the entire middle of the field open for exploit and puts pressure on the other two parts of our D, mostly making us soft at the LoS, forcing us to bring a S up to help play the run or help with TE's.
The single biggest difference 'tween Pittsburgh's D and ours is the Linebackers. I see little to no difference in their DLine vs. ours. With the exception of Polamalu... ditto their secondary, it's nothing special at all... and I'd take Wright over any of their CB's. With good LBers in front of them, Pool & Jones may be one helluva tandem. The difference is the linebackers.
They are a gaping weakness that is also probably the worst possible weakness you can have in a 3-4. Getting off blockers, stopping the run, covering TE's and pressuring the QB are all the domain of the LBer in the 3-4... and ours can't do any of it with any degree of success or consistency.
What has destroyed the most us this year? The run, TE's in the seam and slot receivers.... mainly plays in the 8-15 yard range as offenses methodically pick us apart and march down the field. Almost all of the big plays against us started in that 8-15 yard range.... then became big plays because of missed tackles; but it was weakness in that middle range that has killed us.
Chris Cooley said that our defensive players are big, but slow.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 468
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 468 |
No....IMHO that was due to our tougher schedule this season....
The Mammal
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
The answer is 'no.' We all thought that the problem was that our D-Line was keeping blockers off of our LBs. Turns out our LBs just don't attack the ball, despite our DLine play improving by leaps and bounds. How is the leading sacker in a 3-4 defense the nose tackle, followed by a 7th-round D2 afterthought? It remains to be seen if that's (lack of) talent or poor coaching.
I think its coaching. But I still want us to draft an impact LB with our 1st-rounder.
Maualuga
Curry
Lauranitis
Selvie
I'd be thrilled with any one of these guys.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Did lack of a first day pick
prevent us from taking a step
forward?
|
|
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6WV79RV/Browns-Coach-Sig.png)
