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I stand corrected Shep. The legal age in germany is now 16. I have no idea when that changed, but it sure as hell did. 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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actually, when i worked at the bar in college, if a guy showed me a military ID, he could drink as far as i was concerned. my take was, if the government says he's old enough to get shot at, i say he's old enough to drink. most of the other bartenders i knew felt the same way.
WOOF!WOOF!WOOF!WOOF!WOOF!WOOF!WOOF!WOOF!WOOF!WOOF!WOOF!
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Yeah that's what I was indirectly referring to. I've heard that they don't really have any problem drinking if they choose in a bar even if their not quite 21 yet.
LIbertatem Defendimus!!
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Short story long for ya......
When I was 18, I joined the Navy and got shipped overseas. Served with honor over in the 7th fleet (my home port was Guam). In Yokosuka, Japan and Sasebo (our two most frequent stops) the drinking age is 18 and it wasn't a problem for me or any of my shipmates to go out, have a beer and chill out and sing really bad karayoke. lol. This went on for a few years and when I was 20 I had to take emergency leave back to the states for a major surgery for my brother.
Mind you, i've been overseas for a few years and when I got to San Francisco airport, I had a 2 1/2 hour layover. So I stopped at the bar and ordered a beer and settled in to watch a SF Giants game. I got my beer and took one sip and a police officer came over and asked me for ID. Of course I didn't think anything about it and handed over my ID. He "informed" me that the drinking age was 21 and that I was still 5 months from when I could have my beer.
I was disappointed for sure considering I was used to being served at the American owned and operated establishments overseas including those that are on base (U.S. Property and considered so for all intents and purposes). But I politely paid for the beer that I was not able to drink and went on my way.
Anyways, I don't see the big difference from 18 to 21. I've been in other countries where drinking isn't a major problem at far younger ages than 18. (old enough to reach the bar, old enough to have a drink in some). I'm ok with them lowering the age I guess is the point.
KeysDawg
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It will have zero effect on binge drinking....None...Zip....Nada. However, it is the right thing to do. We let kids drive cars at 16, join the military at 16 or 17, vote at 18, and rent a car at 23.  When I was stationed in Tenn. I was able to drink and frequent topless bars, even though I was only 17. All I needed to do was show my military ID. I think a large percentage of 18 year olds aren't responsible enough to drink, but I don't think they're responsible enough to drive either.
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Quote:
It will have zero effect on binge drinking....None...Zip....Nada.
However, it is the right thing to do. We let kids drive cars at 16, join the military at 16 or 17, vote at 18, and rent a car at 23.
Ditto that.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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and we let our daughters date at 29. 
yebat' Putin
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you let em out that young??
You're crazy man.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I am in the group that believes that 18 is the legal age. Alcohol included.
It is a double standard that is silly. There is no other legal limit for 21.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Quote:
I am in the group that believes that 18 is the legal age. Alcohol included.
It is a double standard that is silly. There is no other legal limit for 21.
x2
when moved out I was 19. From ages 19-21 we always found ways to get beer/liqour if it was at the club(the attic) or any other place that wouold let 21 and under in where alcohol was served to the masses. We would just ask someone over age to buy it for us. We also found a 7-11 that would sell to one of us and we became regulars and never got carded again.
I also grew up in a family that I had wine at dinners/special occasions. I was taught moderationn. I don't drink and drive I walk or call a cab. By age 21... I went out for the first few months and after that the thrill of waking up with a headache went out the window. I never did drink and drive and I have never been so drunk I passed out. I also think it would help force the families that don't teach their children moderation. They are usually still living with their families at 18 and not off to college yet. At 21 they putting the responsibility on the schools or on the 21 year olds because they are gone out of the nest and the talk never really happens from those parents
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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And the whole deal with serving the country but not being able to drink, I've never really heard one of our service men and women complain about that. I've heard that they don't really have that problem.
So let's get this straight.
You believe that you can give an 18 year old the responsibility to drive a tank, get killed in a war, drive, vote.........get tried as an adult and sent to prison..........
Yet they aren't permited to drink? Can't you see a double standard in that?
It's not "whether they join the military".
It's the fact that the laws in our nation dictate, that at 18, you ARE AN ADULT. But you can't drink? Why is it that an 18 year old is judged to be responsible and adult enough to make a choice that could possibly "end his life" ( by joining the military ), yet can not make the decision whether to have a beer or not?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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actually, when i worked at the bar in college, if a guy showed me a military ID, he could drink as far as i was concerned. my take was, if the government says he's old enough to get shot at, i say he's old enough to drink. most of the other bartenders i knew felt the same way.
But doesn't that mean that our government has determined that ALL 18 year olds are responsible enough to make the decision to be "shot at or not"?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Sure it does after a very intensive training, they are equipped for the perils they may face. So, to continue your poor analogy, let's lower the drinking age to 18, but require just as intense training before they can do so.
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Quote:
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actually, when i worked at the bar in college, if a guy showed me a military ID, he could drink as far as i was concerned. my take was, if the government says he's old enough to get shot at, i say he's old enough to drink. most of the other bartenders i knew felt the same way.
But doesn't that mean that our government has determined that ALL 18 year olds are responsible enough to make the decision to be "shot at or not"?
Actually, yes it does. The government has stipulated that ALL 18 year olds are able to sign up to be "shot at or not". And actually, they start promoting this scenario at much younger ages than 18. Most recruiters start talking to students when they are 15 or 16. They just cannot sign without parental consent until they are 18.
KeysDawg
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.. let's lower the drinking age to 18, but require just as intense training before they can do so.. ..Cool ! 
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Bottom line? You're country will let you die for it, but not drink in it. Double standard. You know Coach, this entire thread, many agree with this and have chimed in in agreement. Yet somehow, I knew you'd make an appearance and disagree.  The point is, they can decide to take a chance in losing their life for their country. They can not decide whether to have a beer or not. Whether they DO join or not isn't the issue. The issue is, they can choose to risk their life, but not to have a beer. You have a nice day Coach! 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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The point that you are missing in your zeal is that they have the choice, but aren't going to be shot at WITHOUT THE PROPER TRAINING to deal with such situations. You are comparing apples and oranges, as usual. I didn't say I disagreed with lowering the age. I said that your analogy is faulty and showed why. You would rather dismiss it because....well, because you just want to. 
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The point that you are missing in your zeal is that they have the choice, but aren't going to be shot at WITHOUT THE PROPER TRAINING to deal with such situations. You are comparing apples and oranges, as usual.
No Coach, actually I am not.
When you "decide to join", you are making a "life and death decision". So our government has decided that at the age of 18, you are at the maturity level to make "life and death decisions". But they have also decided you can not make a rational decision to drink or not.
At the juncture you make the decision to "risk your life", you have not been "trained at anything".
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I said that your analogy is faulty and showed why. You would rather dismiss it because....well, because you just want to.
My analogy is not flawed. Because, as I stated, you make that "life and death decision" at 18 BEFORE you are ever trained. And besides, many of those "trained" are killed. So it's a life and death decision you are making without having been "trained" at anything.
So the facts stand. If you can make a decision to risk your life for your country, you should be able to decide if you want to drink beer.
But to the extent that "training is involved", I agree that it should also be that way for kids to be "informed and educated BEFORE they turn 18 about alcohol and drugs."
Now I went to school not long after they invented the wheel.

But at that time, you were required two years of phys. ed. and one semester of health to graduate. I believe in that same vein, there should be a mandatory semester of "Drug and alcohol Awareness".
And IMO, that is irrespective of the drinking law. Our youth should know the evils and pitfalls of drug addiction and alcoholism. They should understand the ramifications, penalties and health risks involved. And I do feel that it would take a specialised class for an entire semester to cover that all in detail.
IMO, a class requirement like this is long overdo.
But irrespective of that, you DO make a life and death decision when making the choice to enter the military. And if you are mature enough to make that "life and death decision", then common sense dictates you are also mature enough to make a decision about drinking or not.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Pit makes a good point. I am ex military and can easily say with proper education, a person who is 18 should be able to have a beer. Sure I made the choice to serve my country at 18 years of age, but I also feel in doing so I should be able to have a beer if I want, if I can die for this country I sure as hell be able to have a beer.
The point is I don't mind an 18 year old having a beer as long as there is proper training involved, such a high school courses, but no matter, I feel if they lower the age, first they must teach the kids responsibility and also inform them of the consequences that goes with drinking.
Lets face it, underage drinking occurs, I did it, others have, and there are people on this board who have (Ammo) the problem is underage drinkers are not informed about the responsibilities of drinking and most are not mature enough to handle such pressures (Ammo) FYI I am just using Ammo as an example of a person who has drank underage but isn't mature enough to understand the consequences involved, but if properly taught in regards to such substances they might have a better understanding of the responsibilities, and not look at it as being "cool", and have the mentality of look at me I am 18 and drinking and I am cool, that is the problem, it is the maturity factor, and if we can implement a program to teach the youth, then so be it, because lets face it, if a kid is 18 and want a beer they will do it no matter of the law. Either way I do not see the law changing, but if it did I wouldn't care as long as measures have been taken to teach kids about substance abuse and addiction.
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Sigh, no, Pit, they are not making a life or death situation until they are properly trained. They are making a choice to join the military, but not making a life or death decision. I disagree with that wholeheartedly.
At least we agree there should be education on this situation. There is a reason why there are more problems in this country than others when it comes to alcohol abuse with the younger crowd, IMO.
Oh, and just so you and others know, there is no way I believe that "binge drinking" has anything to do with it being illegal and not knowing when you'll get your next drink. I remember being underage and drinking. I have dealt with kids my entire career. Never once have I heard, or thought, I have to drink as much as possible while I have this keg because I don't know the next time I'll get another beer. That's simply BS thrown out there. The truth is that I did it because I wanted to get drunk. I didnt use a beer bong in my younger years to get more in because I didn't know when I'd get another.
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So when you join the "military", you understand that you can not be deployed into battle?
You realise there is no risk involved?
You are assured you will not be deployed to fight on foreign soil?
IMO, you are making the choice that you are "willing to lay your life on the line for your country" which may result in your death.
So in your opinion, that's not a very potential "life and death decision"?
Especialy in a time such as now when we are fighting two wars on two fronts with limited troop strength?
Maybe I'm wording it wrong or we're just miscommunicating here, but it sure seems like during a time of war, you are most certainly making a decision to risk your life in order to serve our country.
And that would be a decision only a mature adult can make rationaly. So IMO, if you are mature enough to make that call and lay your life on the line for your country, you should be able to have a beer in your own country.
If we're still not connecting here, I'll let it go at that.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Why is it that an 18 year old is judged to be responsible and adult enough to make a choice that could possibly "end his life" ( by joining the military ), yet can not make the decision whether to have a beer or not?
Because Reagan said so.
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rack Fletch re: Ammo.
Not all of us can afford to drink irresponsibly. He's just lucky he hasn't been caught yet and that he's not gotten a DUI. I think he's avoided being in the wrong situation. I'm not even sure if his parents are aware that he's a party animal.
I don't drink much, but knowing my luck, Fletch, if one day I decided to drink and drive that'd be the one day that I'd get caught. Some people are just unlucky.
So I just decide not to drink and drive. It's that simple. I knew someone who was killed by a drunk driver and we had to cover the trial for our newspaper. That keeps me in check from wanting to do something like that.
Go Browns!
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youre splitting hairs here coachb, simply to argue.
every section of american law i can think of says that at age 18, you are an adult and responsible for your actions....except for drinking.
adults can make rational decisions.....except for when the gov't deems it inappropriate.
your whole argument for pits analogy is complete BS....what does having proper training have to do with the decision to put your life on the line for your country? one knows he/she will get trained; this is a moot point. this individual is fine to decide if he/she is willing to die, but not responsible enough to drink? gimme a break with your nonsense. stop being indignant and recognize that drinking isn't the downfall of society....
you assume since you "work with kids" that you know something about them or how they act/think/feel.....you must really suck at your job....thats my only conclusion after reading your babble.
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And the whole deal with serving the country but not being able to drink, I've never really heard one of our service men and women complain about that. I've heard that they don't really have that problem.
So let's get this straight.
You believe that you can give an 18 year old the responsibility to drive a tank, get killed in a war, drive, vote.........get tried as an adult and sent to prison..........
Yet they aren't permited to drink? Can't you see a double standard in that?
It's not "whether they join the military".
It's the fact that the laws in our nation dictate, that at 18, you ARE AN ADULT. But you can't drink? Why is it that an 18 year old is judged to be responsible and adult enough to make a choice that could possibly "end his life" ( by joining the military ), yet can not make the decision whether to have a beer or not?
Why don't you do something different for a change...Like actually read what someone writes (and you quote). He never said he didn't think they should be able to drink at 18. What he said was he has never heard servicemen complain about it. 
As far as complaining about it goes...They do, and quite often and for a long time. I complained way back in 86 when I went from Tenn. to Va.
#gmstrong
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Your analogy is not only flawed, IMO it is plain stupid. That being said, I have no idea why Coach bothered to bring it up.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Pit makes a good point. I am ex military and can easily say with proper education, a person who is 18 should be able to have a beer. Sure I made the choice to serve my country at 18 years of age, but I also feel in doing so I should be able to have a beer if I want, if I can die for this country I sure as hell be able to have a beer.
I'm really confused. That sure sounds like what Coach was saying, not Pit.
Anyway, I agree with you. There should be more education about the dangers of drinking. I don't know if it will make a difference, but it couldn't hurt.
Taking the whole military out of the equation, I still think 21 is a stupid age for any booze. 18 is the age you are considered an adult, so that should be the drinking age. I'm fine if they want to keep the age at 21...As long as they raise the voting age, when you can join the military without consent, raise the age you can use your kids as a deduction, etc...
#gmstrong
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No, Pit, it isn't a "life or death" decision. If you get into a car, you know there's a chance that you can be in an accident and be killed. When you ride on a plane, you know there is a chance you could crash and die. If you cross the street, there is a chance you'll be run over. Are all of those things "life or death" decisions?
Again, before an 18 year old is put into a situation that is "life and death", they receive the proper training and instruction.
We're not "connecting" because your analogy is fatally flawed.
Choco, I brought it up, not just to argue, but to point out that those being so flippant about being able to serve at 18 and not being able to drink are ignoring the education and training that comes with that ability. I'm with Fletch. If the age is to be lowered, it should come with the proper education and training.
Here's another question. If we lower the age to 18 and those talking about binge drinking being a product of not being allowed to, so doesn't that just lower the age of the binge drinkers? I don't buy that BS arguement, but if you do, surely you understand you're lowering the age of the binge drinkers from 18-21.
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Quote:
If you get into a car, you know there's a chance that you can be in an accident and be killed. When you ride on a plane, you know there is a chance you could crash and die. If you cross the street, there is a chance you'll be run over. Are all of those things "life or death" decisions?
These are all life or death decisions, decisions that we take for granted everyday---or at least your tone implies that you do.
I don't think that you should have to take a course to drink beer. You don't have to at 21, so why you are advocating "training" for 18 year olds seems to me like pompous garbage---which is nothing new coming from you.
Binge drinking is a problem at every age, the titles are just a bit different. When you are young---they call you a binge drinker, when you're old they just call you an alcoholic.
With all this said, I think that the age limit should be lowered to 18. Mainly because I believe that if you are an adult, then you are responsible enough to make adult decisions.
Plus, going to a bar and drinking is much safer than going to some keg party, where everyone is a jackass. At a bar there are bouncers, bartenders, manager, i.e. more supervision. Plus, it will cost more, so 18 year olds will learn fiscal responsibility while also aquiring an understanding of limits, and how not to be the sloppy drunk guy.
It all boils down to your view of people, and how much credit you give them. i tend to believe that people are responsible enough to handle alcohol---then again I believe that human beings are responsible enough to handle recreational drug use as well.
At any rate, if we ever expect 18 year olds to act like adults, then we should start treating them as adults.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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My parents handled drinking a bit unusually. Maybe it was my education.
When I was 18, the drinking age, they said, ok. you can drink, If you want a beer, have a beer, it is in the fridge. Drink it in front of us, not behind us. If we see you getting out of control, we will cut you off.
Don't drink and drive. get it. don't drink and drive. People die, and we don't want people to die. We know that we can't claim perfection on this point, put sillyness when you are drunk is just bad.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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My bad. Both are making valid points, I should have acknowledged them both. Bottom line is education, educate them and I do not care, like I said if an 18 year old wants do drink, they will period.
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If it was up to me, the law would be if you are in the military then you've earned the right to go to a bar and have a drink, outside of that I'm not in favor of lowering the drinking age, but the bottom line is if people really want to drink they'll do so regaurdless of any law.
LET'S GO BROWNS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/OldSixty-Two/new0400001.jpg) [b]WOOF WOOF[b]
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Didn't want to start a new thread on this, although if someone feels it should be, feel free to do so. But I felt this topic was all over several aspects of DUI's. Quote:
http://blog.cleveland.com/plaindealer/2008/08/12_troopers_could_be_fired_in.html
12 in Ohio Patrol face firing in probe
COLUMBUS -- The State Highway Patrol on Tuesday recommended firing 12 officers accused of cheating on a required test for certification to run breath testing equipment used to determine if a person is intoxicated during drunken driving arrests.
An Ohio Inspector General report in July found that a trooper made copies of an exam he took in 2007 and shared answers with other troopers when he retook the test in April.
The report also found that there was evidence of related cheating by troopers on tests given on four other dates in 2007 and 2008.
Most of the allegations concern troopers or sergeants assigned to the Canton post.
In addition to the 12 recommended for termination, two sergeants are being demoted and three others in the patrol have been reprimanded, said Highway Patrol spokesman Lt. Tony Bradshaw.
The cases go before a hearing officer Friday at the patrol's district headquarters in Massillon.
Bradshaw said he could not disclose names of those disciplined pending the hearing.
Herschel Sigall, a lawyer for the Ohio State Troopers Association, said in a written statement that the union will conduct its own investigation and plans to challenge at least some of the allegations based on lack of evidence of cheating.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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No, Pit, it isn't a "life or death" decision. If you get into a car, you know there's a chance that you can be in an accident and be killed. When you ride on a plane, you know there is a chance you could crash and die. If you cross the street, there is a chance you'll be run over. Are all of those things "life or death" decisions?
So you equate that to bullets flying over your head in a war? Then we simply disagree.
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Again, before an 18 year old is put into a situation that is "life and death", they receive the proper training and instruction.
Which STILL means they have "bullets flying at them". AND their decision could cause them to lose limbs, be shot at and die. That does not equate nor resemble in any way crossing the street or riding in a car for kripes sake. I think most all can recognise that Coach.
So good luck with such an obscure and off base analogy.
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I'm with Fletch. If the age is to be lowered, it should come with the proper education and training.
Which is BTW a point I brought up. So you are actually agreeing with me. 
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I don't buy that BS arguement, but if you do, surely you understand you're lowering the age of the binge drinkers from 18-21.
If you're old enough and responsible enough to make such a life or death decision as joining the military, you're old enough to make the decision to drink. Plain and simple. Either that, or raise the age of joining the service to 21. You can't have your cake and eat it too...............
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum College presidents seek debate on
drinking age
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