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Stats really aren't for losers. Excuses are for losers. I think stats can be a tool in evaluating someone or something. You just can't solely rely on them or misrepresent them.


One thing that no one seems to be considering here...........DA's quick release and quick decision making and how it affected the stat total. How many times was Frye sacked w/that same offensive line in the first game of the year? Wasn't it six? How many times was he sacked last year w/3/5 of that line in place?

The offensive line was much improved, but it's safe to say the sack total would have went way up if DA wasn't the QB.




hurricaned --------- Glad Boise and I aren't the only ones who recognize this:


Quote:

I really don't care who the QB is but some of you really are pressing the agendas.

DA can't do this DA can't do that , but BQ can.
How do I know, I don't , just believe me because I gots football smarts.

Heck after reading some of this crap , I wonder If DA does anything right.

Someone please tell me how they know BQ is going to be a stud.
What have you seen? .......... in his 8 or so plays




I can't believe more people aren't thinking this way.


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Quote:

One thing that no one seems to be considering here...........DA's quick release and quick decision making and how it affected the stat total. How many times was Frye sacked w/that same offensive line in the first game of the year? Wasn't it six? How many times was he sacked last year w/3/5 of that line in place?




I have considered it and is why in the past I have said a qb has much to do with how well his O-line performs....or at least how they are perceived.

That quick release is why we scored a few more TDs then we would have...and why a few more picks were thrown.

All of DA's picks weren't just flat out bad throws 3 feet behind wide open receivers. Some were thrown at the last second....he threw when he had to throw...or be sacked.

Now, maybe he should take a few more sacks rather than force the ball...part of the growing process as a qb.


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

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That's true. For example stats for both DA and Frye against the Steelers can help us compare the two. But when comparing two different teams there are way too many variables involved to rely on them. Stats need to be taken with a grain of salt, but not completely ignored. And Vers I did comment on the fact that Frye really hurt our sack numbers. I didn't directly state anything about DA's quick release but kind of hinted at it.

hurricaned: I didn't say I learned anything in this thread, but that I have learned stuff from Diam over time.

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For U bro .. I;ll make an encore appearance .. but this is it .. after this one U won't hear from me until at least August .. possibly not until Oct. ...

Me harping on the Texans has nuttin to do with U picking them in your list .. it has everything to do with them giving up such a low % of sacks and being on that list .. THEY PROVE THE STATS ARE BS ... cause there OL could NOT BLOCK .... PERIOD ... PASS OR RUN ... THERE HORRIBLE .. yet there they are on the top of the list .. BRUTAL BRO ... ABSOLUTELY BRUTAL ...

No more .. no less ...

Vers .... I agree ... Stats can be viable .. WHEN USED PROPERLY .. I have stated on here many many times my slogan comes from people taking one or two stats and coming up with final conclusions to back up there BS .... and Bro ... Deep is a young pup .. WE NEED TO TEACH HIM HOW TO DO IT RIGHT ... teach him to use his eyes first ...

and I listed quick release as one of DA's strengths .. as well as a weakness ... cause he did get rid of it quickly .. mostly because he made up his mind pre-snap what to do .. and that was GOOD on some plays .. and BAD on some plays ..

Bro ... DA's quick release did save SOME SACKS .. NO DOUBT ... but he had ALOT LESS PRESSURE THAN all but one QB in the league .. and the amount of time they had was MUCH MUCH MORE than the others ...

and comparing him to Frye is just as unfair as what most of the guys on my side of the fence do that you point out on a consistent basis (and rightfully so .. ) .. they take EXTREMES and use them .. and U then rightfully blast them for it .. well using Frye in comparision to ANYONE as far as holding onto the ball is just as BAD ... yes, he is all we have to compare this OL against ... but that doesn't make it ANYMORE VALID .. he held the ball LONGER than any QB in the league ..

now U wanna make that valid .. COMPARE FRYE AND DA VS PITT LAST YEAR .... one thing I never seen the apologists mention even though theyuse the Pitt game and frye all the time in their arguments .. is what DA DID AGAINST PITT ..... and he threw 3 TD's in that game BUT STUNK THE JOINT UP ... he was BRUTAL in that game ...

coincidence???? I DOUBT IT ...

and at the end of the day .. this is all BS ... as it wil unfold and we will know more in 6 months .. as this plays out ... WE'LL ALL SEE .....

anyhow boys and girls and dolts ... BE GOOD AND HAVE FUN .. I know I will be ... see ya in 2 - 4 months ...

WOOF WOOF WOOF ....




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Quote:

Stats really aren't for losers. Excuses are for losers. I think stats can be a tool in evaluating someone or something. You just can't solely rely on them or misrepresent them.




Yup. You can't rely soley on stats, but they are telling. You have to use them in conjuction with what you see with your eyes.


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just clickin'


Football Outsiders is primarily a group who does statistical analysis on the NFL. They take a lot into consideration when evaluating teams and individual players.

Below is a long read that is not very hard to understand as they explain their thinking in trying to evaluate the running game. Some of it will make no sense without a bit of background on their terminology, but within it one can get an idea of many of the variables that have to be taken into consideration when trying to evaluate the NFL by using stats.

They admit that there are just too many variables to account for to expect any true indication of any real value using stats alone. But they try their best to make sense of it all.

In the end, as many are saying, the stats are there to be interpreted or misinterpreted as one sees fit. But the best and most reliable method of evaluating teams and individual players is by watching them to see for yourself what is happening.

You may understand all of this better than I was able to do. But if you do what I've done and read for the education of all the different variables that take place during a play you will quickly see that no amout of mathmatical genius will ever be able to make any valid determination through the use of stats alone.

In fact, the task of trying to evaluate using stats is so daunting that none of us will ever be able to do any more than merely brush the surface without making it our life's occupation as these guys have.

Football Outsiders is the website that made me realize that stats really are for losers if people are trying to use stats alone as a basis for their evaluation of teams, units or individual players. Although stats are facts, they just do not contain enough facts to make an educated evaluation. You must watch for yourself to put it all in perspective.

The following is their explanation of how they statistically evaluate the running game. It doesn't mention it in this explanation but they have the 2007 Browns ranked 3rd best run blocking offensive line. (They have us listed as the 6th best pass blocking line). 2007 Offensive Line



This is but a portion of the article, near the end, which discusses the running game...

One of the most difficult goals of statistical analysis in football is somehow isolating how much responsibility for a play lies with each of the 22 men on the field. Nowhere is this as obvious as the running game, where one player runs while up to nine other players -- including wideouts, tight ends, and fullback -- block in different directions. None of the statistics we use for measuring rushing -- yards, touchdowns, yards per carry -- differentiate between the contribution of the running back and the contribution of the offensive line. Neither do our advanced metrics DVOA and DPAR.

We have enough data amassed that we can try to separate the effect that the running back has on a particular play from the effect of the offensive line (and other offensive blockers) and the effect of the defense. A team might have two running backs in its stable: RB A, who averages 3.0 yards per carry, and RB B, who averages 3.5 yards per carry. Who is the better back? Imagine that RB A doesn�t just average 3.0 yards per carry, but gets exactly 3 yards on every single carry, while RB B has a highly variable yardage output: sometimes 5 yards, sometimes �2 yards, sometimes 20 yards. The difference in variability between the runners can be exploited to not only determine the difference between the runners, but the effect the offensive line has on every running play.

We know that at some point in every long running play, the running back has gotten past all of his offensive line blocks. From here on, the rest of the play is dependent on the runner's own speed and elusiveness, combined with the speed and tackling ability of the defensive players. If Tiki Barber breaks through the line for 50 yards, avoiding tacklers all the way to the goal line, his offensive line has done a great job -- but they aren't responsible for most of that run. How much are they responsible for?

For each running back carry, we calculated the probability that the back involved would run for the specific yardage on that play, based on that back�s average yardage per carry and the variability of their yardage on every play. We also calculated the probability that the offense would get the yardage based on the team�s rushing average and variability without the back involved in the play, and the probability that the defense would give up the specific amount of yardage based on its average rushing yards allowed per carry and variability. For example, based on his rushing average and variability, the probability in 2004 that Tiki Barber would have a positive carry was 80% while the probability that Giants would have a positive carry without Barber running was only 73%.

Yardage ends up falling into roughly the following combinations: Losses, 0-4 yards, 5-10 yards, and 11+ yards. In general, the offensive line is 20% more responsible for lost yardage than it is for yardage gained up to four yards, but 50% less responsible for yardage gained from 5-10 yards, and not responsible for yardage past that. Thus, the creation of Adjusted Line Yards.

Adjusted Line Yards take every carry by a running back and apply those percentages. (We don�t include carries by receivers, which are usually based on deception rather than straight blocking, or carries by quarterbacks, which are generally busted passing plays except in Atlanta.) Those numbers are then adjusted based on down, distance, and situation as well as opponent (similar to DVOA) and then normalized so that the league average for Adjusted Line Yards per carry is the same as the league average for RB yards per carry (in 2005, 4.07).

Runs are listed by the NFL in seven different directions: left/right end, left/right tackle, left/right guard, and middle. Further research showed no statistically significant difference between how well a team performed on runs listed middle, left guard, and right guard, so we also list runs separated into five different directions. Note that there may not be a statistically significant difference between right tackle and middle/guard either, but until we can research further (and for the sake of symmetry) we do still split out runs behind the right tackle separately.

The system is far from perfect. We don't know when a guard is pulling and when a guard is blocking straight ahead. We know that some runners are just inherently better going up the middle, and some are better going side to side, and we can't measure how much that impacts these numbers. We have no way of knowing the blocking contribution made by fullbacks, tight ends, or wide receivers.

Other numbers we use to measure the running game:

10+ Yards gives the percentage of the team's rushing yards that come from double-digit runs, past the first 10 yards of each run. So for a 15-yard run, five yards are counted; for an 80-yard run, 70 yards are counted. This number gives you an idea of how much of a team's running game was based on the breakaway speed of the running backs -- not to mention the opportunity provided by getting past the front seven with a lot of field in front of you. After all, you can only run 80 yards if you're on your own 20. This number is not adjusted in any way.

Power success measures the success of specific running plays rather than the distance. This number represents how often a running attempt on third or fourth down, with two yards or less to go, achieved a first down or touchdown. Since quarterback sneaks, unlike scrambles, are heavily dependent on the offensive line, this percentage does include runs by all players, not just running backs. This is the only stat given that includes quarterback runs. It is not adjusted based on game situation or opponent.

Stuffed measures the percentage of runs that result in (on first down) zero or negative gain or (on second through fourth down) less than one-fourth the yards needed for another first down. Note that this is slightly different from the definition of "stuffed" used by STATS, Inc.

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Vers, I equate these QB threads to the RAC threads a year or was it two years ago.
We didn't win , we went backwards, OK , let's fire him.
Why ? Well he makes bad challenges, he shows no emotion on the sideline, he refuses to fire Mo , when we the most knowledgable fans in football know he should.
Why those threads got followed up with the , see RAC should go because Savage had to take over and fire Mo for him, Savage had to force him to take Chud, how do we know? It's common knowledge, we just know.


The bottom line is , the diffirence between this FO and the FOs of the past, is they don't let the fans or media pressure them into doing things they shouldn't. In fact I doubt they even read the crap that gets said.
They are confidant that they know what they are doing , reporters can spin it anyway they want but they don't budge.

DA is the starter because the powers that be determined he is the best option right now. Is he the future ? who knows , I think Phil is saying the future IS now.

People can debate this until their fingers are bleeding and it will not change a thing. I wonder sometimes if the loud debaters do it because they REALLY think they can make changes happen.

Remember when Savage said RAC wasn't on the hot seat, that was followed by the typical, it was the kiss of death statement threads.
People just knew RAC was gone , but Phil kept saying he would have to lose the first 4 games by a large margin for that to be even a thought, blowouts, losing the team . Even then he stated that wasn't likely.

Our fans really seem to think highly of their importance to the success of this team. If we scream we don't like something the FO will listen.

There are alot of people out there that will never be happy, unless it gets done their way. It appears most of them are Browns fans.

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