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Phil, logic is not always the answer.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Yep it's different. More murders, more rapes, more people in prison, more crime of all types. 
About 280 million more people and there's more crime? Shocking.
If you were talking about per capita, I'd like to see your statistics from the 1700s.
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So when did Freedom of Religion become Suppression of Religion?????
When people started turning their back on God.
That is it right there.
The answer is that simple.
Too many people look for complicated answers to questions that don't require one.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Finally something I can agree with. No one KNOWS what happened. No matter what yo BELIEVE happened, it takes faith. As GM said, logic really can't apply in this situation, no matter how much we all would like a concrete answer.
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Legend
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If you were talking about per capita, I'd like to see your statistics from the 1700s.
Can I go from memory?
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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If you were talking about per capita, I'd like to see your statistics from the 1700s.
Can I go from memory?
you must have a parchment-report from your 8th grade civics class laying around somewhere...
Browns fans are born with it...
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Legend
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All we had back then was the three R's readin, rightin, and rithamatic 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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This is one of the most misunderstood arguments that exists in the country today.
Anyone who has ever taken the time to study the Declaration of Independance would have thier question answered.
What we call civil liberties, are viewed as being rights higher than the role of a government. Freedom or religion, right to bear arms, freedom of speech, etc.
The government was established to handle the tasks associated with commerce, defense, laws etc. and not to interfere with religion.
Separation of church and state means that the government cannot mandate personal beliefs associated with religion. It cannot deny that those beliefs exist, or that those beliefs are held by the people of the country.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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All we had back then was the three R's readin, rightin, and rithamatic
We had that one A to help us with our rithamatic. The abacus.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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What do you mean HAD 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Legend
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Jethro only finished the 6th grade and he made it to Hollywood!  So once I passed the 7th grade, it was smooth sailing from there!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Was your father GK Chesterton? That is flatout well said! As far as the bible and being an elective course... some good points. It is poorly written... well... at least a little more than the 1st half of the book But the many interpretations and approaches to the bible, fundamentalist, contextual, and many beliefs and different denominations emphasis on different aspects of it would only lead to trouble...
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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So when did Freedom of Religion become Suppression of Religion?????
When people started turning their back on God.
That is it right there.
The answer is that simple.
Too many people look for complicated answers to questions that don't require one.
I happen to believe that one of, if not THE single most important "concepts" in our founding is the notion that our rights are bestowed upon us by our creator.
If rights come from God and the vast majority believe in a similar God, then it becomes extremely difficult for a man-made government to infringe on those rights. The farther we move away from God and the more trust and faith we put in our man-made government to take care of us then the more we feel that our rights come from government... then the easier it is for government to begin eroding those rights because there is no higher power to answer to.....
People whine about us becoming a theocracy but when God used to trump our government, people had more freedom, more personal responsibility, more sense of community, etc...
yebat' Putin
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People whine about us becoming a theocracy but when God used to trump our government, people had more freedom, more personal responsibility, more sense of community, etc...
That sounds great in theory. Unfortunately, the reality is many times it's those "same God Fearing people" that are helping create the theocracy. At least that's the "image" they wish to display.
But I agree that those espousing Religion while building such a theocracy are most likely hypocrites to say the least IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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That sounds great in theory.
It's not a theory, it's a fact. 50 years ago, you could smoke where you wanted, drink where you wanted, ride bikes without a helmet, climb trees, spank your kids, and eat saturated fats if you wanted, there were diving boards at swimming pools, little league kept score, and parents were the first line of defense in a kids education and people said a small benediction at formal events...... then as God was pushed out and the government stepped in, a lot of that is gone and it will continue to go away... and I do not think that is a coincidence....
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the reality is many times it's those "same God Fearing people" that are helping create the theocracy. At least that's the "image" they wish to display.
Pit, we are exchanging one theocracy for another then... we may no longer worship at the alter of God, but we have merely exchanged it for the alter of government.. We bow at the alter of government for our rights, for our benefits in time of need, for our safety, for our recourse if somebody wrongs us. Too many people just don't understand, the natural world hates a vacuum and something will fill it... the vacuum being created by removing God is being filled by government and government isn't nearly as good at providing for people as God is...
yebat' Putin
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It's not a theory, it's a fact. 50 years ago, you could smoke where you wanted, drink where you wanted, ride bikes without a helmet, climb trees, spank your kids, and eat saturated fats if you wanted, there were diving boards at swimming pools, little league kept score, and parents were the first line of defense in a kids education and people said a small benediction at formal events...... then as God was pushed out and the government stepped in, a lot of that is gone and it will continue to go away... and I do not think that is a coincidence....
Don't forget that women were second class citizens, blacks had to move to the back of the bus, and McCarthy was using governmental power to blackball and destroy those he may have had an ideological disagreement with.
Ah, the 50s,
~Lyuokdea
~Lyuokdea
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It's not a theory, it's a fact. 50 years ago, you could smoke where you wanted, drink where you wanted, ride bikes without a helmet, climb trees, spank your kids, and eat saturated fats if you wanted, there were diving boards at swimming pools, little league kept score, and parents were the first line of defense in a kids education and people said a small benediction at formal events......
you could smoke where you wanted
drink where you wanted
And I suppose it was the "Godless hoards" that changed these things? If I recall, prohibition wasn't created by the "Godless hoards".
You used to be able to smoke pot where you wanted. Until, let me guess, the "Godless hoards" changed all of that?
It sort of amazes me just how hard you go to bat for people in each state having such authority to "change things", then try to divert such legislation as not being a two way street.
Dry counties to anti-smoking bans have often been "spawned from Religion" just as much as anything else. I believe if we each live our own life as we deem "proper", we should not try to "control others" to conform" to how we believe "Religion says" they should act.
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then as God was pushed out and the government stepped in, a lot of that is gone and it will continue to go away... and I do not think that is a coincidence....
That's quite an odd thing to say IMO. From Nixon to Regan to Bush, the Religious right has managed to install not only the politicians to further their agenda, but supreme court justices by these administrations to help do the same.
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Pit, we are exchanging one theocracy for another then... we may no longer worship at the alter of God, but we have merely exchanged it for the alter of government.. We bow at the alter of government for our rights, for our benefits in time of need, for our safety, for our recourse if somebody wrongs us. Too many people just don't understand, the natural world hates a vacuum and something will fill it... the vacuum being created by removing God is being filled by government and government isn't nearly as good at providing for people as God is...
I believe you may be overstating things just a tad. Can you explain to me how such changes in government policy has "effected your relationship with God"?
How does requiring safety helmets when riding bikes do that? Isn't it true that your children are much safer wearing such helmets and that God really has NOTHING to do with that?
Actually, I don't see ANY of the things you listed as having ANY baring or change in "people's relationship with God".
And you can look back in history to see that government programs and regulations have been going on at the VERY least since the early 30's. Or is it that those type of regulations "fell more in line" with your beliefs than the newer regulations do?
Often times I've found that such regulations DO help keep some of our people safer simply because they don't have the common sense to protect themselves. And many are "faith based" regulations. Neither are terribly impressve or offensive for the most part IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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And I suppose it was the "Godless hoards" that changed these things? If I recall, prohibition wasn't created by the "Godless hoards".
You are correct and I should have been more clear.... more authority to dictate dry counties and such was driven by local government than by national fiat... I have less problem with local governments doing stupid things than I do our national government doing stupid things.. 
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That's quite an odd thing to say IMO. From Nixon to Regan to Bush, the Religious right has managed to install not only the politicians to further their agenda, but supreme court justices by these administrations to help do the same.
Donald Regan was never president, he was however, chief of staff to Ronald Reagan. I don't want the religious right making laws and enacting their agenda... I want the conservative agenda to be for less government.. that's it. That's why I like Ronald Reagan. I don't want a religious agenda or a non-religious agenda, I want a minimalist agenda and I want PEOPLE to turn back to God... not the government... I fully understand that those are 2 completely different arguments.
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Can you explain to me how such changes in government policy has "effected your relationship with God"?
How does requiring safety helmets when riding bikes do that? Isn't it true that your children are much safer wearing such helmets and that God really has NOTHING to do with that?
Actually, I don't see ANY of the things you listed as having ANY baring or change in "people's relationship with God".
You have the cause and effect backwards... none of it affects my personal relationship with God... But it used to be up to my own common sense as a parent whether my child wore a helmet or not... now a wonderful well-meaning group of bureaucrats with the full support of a bunch of do-gooders who have nothing better to do than look after the "well being" of MY FAMILY have decided that they have to.
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And you can look back in history to see that government programs and regulations have been going on at the VERY least since the early 30's. Or is it that those type of regulations "fell more in line" with your beliefs than the newer regulations do?
No, it's just that there used to be a lot fewer of them and they were far less intrusive.
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Often times I've found that such regulations DO help keep some of our people safer simply because they don't have the common sense to protect themselves.
Well, there you go. I'm a bit tired of bureaucrats dictating things to me because some other people lack the common sense to take care of themselves. Evidently you are not. Seems like an odd position from somebody who claims to be a "conservative" at heart.
yebat' Putin
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And I suppose it was the "Godless hoards" that changed these things? If I recall, prohibition wasn't created by the "Godless hoards".
You are correct and I should have been more clear.... more authority to dictate dry counties and such was driven by local government than by national fiat... I have less problem with local governments doing stupid things than I do our national government doing stupid things..
So you promote stupidity on a small scale but not on a large scale? 
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That's quite an odd thing to say IMO. From Nixon to Regan to Bush, the Religious right has managed to install not only the politicians to further their agenda, but supreme court justices by these administrations to help do the same.
Donald Regan was never president, he was however, chief of staff to Ronald Reagan. I don't want the religious right making laws and enacting their agenda... I want the conservative agenda to be for less government.. that's it. That's why I like Ronald Reagan. I don't want a religious agenda or a non-religious agenda, I want a minimalist agenda and I want PEOPLE to turn back to God... not the government... I fully understand that those are 2 completely different arguments.
I don't believe that the millions of Christians that have organized themselves into a "political faction" got your memo.
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You have the cause and effect backwards... none of it affects my personal relationship with God... But it used to be up to my own common sense as a parent whether my child wore a helmet or not... now a wonderful well-meaning group of bureaucrats with the full support of a bunch of do-gooders who have nothing better to do than look after the "well being" of MY FAMILY have decided that they have to.
I don't really care for such "overstepping legislation" either. But I was unnaware that it was a "federal mandate" that children wear safety helmets while riding bikes? I thought it was "state to state or local municipalities" that decide these measures? You know, that "smaller scale stupidity" that you "don't mind so much"?
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No, it's just that there used to be a lot fewer of them and they were far less intrusive.
To you on a personal level you mean?
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Often times I've found that such regulations DO help keep some of our people safer simply because they don't have the common sense to protect themselves.
Well, there you go. I'm a bit tired of bureaucrats dictating things to me because some other people lack the common sense to take care of themselves. Evidently you are not. Seems like an odd position from somebody who claims to be a "conservative" at heart.
No, not really. I just get tired of people accepting and promoting regulations that "suit their own personal interests" while spewing venom about the regulations that do not.
As I said earlier, I'm against "most ALL" regulations instituted by our government. While some seem perfectly fine with regulations that "suit their desires".
ie...... Marijuana laws, mairrage laws, moral laws of any kind other than to protect children and I could go on.
It seems if it's a "pro Christian" law or regulation that it's perfectly "acceptable regulations". But if and when regulations go in a different direction, it's at that point they cry foul.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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So you promote stupidity on a small scale but not on a large scale?
What is it with you and comprehension????? I mean really....Where did you make this leap from "less of a problem with" to "promote"????
I think DC was quite clear that he feels that government on all levels has grown a little too large and a little too beureaucratic. What is so hard to understand?
What on earth happened to you Pit???? You used you have a mind...You used to pose good questions....You used to have what amounted to an opinion that had the appearance of being your own...........but now all you do is spout conspiracy laced drivel about the religous right and you try to hijack every single thread on your personal crusade against George W. Bush. OK......WE GET IT......YOU DON'T LIKE THE GUY......GET A LIFE. DC is right.....for someone who claims to be a conservative.....You certainly take a lot of liberal and socialist political positions......
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Getting back to the topic....If schools cannot suppress a student from expressing his fath. ie prayer(although I have ...Why can they do so during a graduation speech?
I mean look at what 1 little girl had to go through. http://malaysia.usembassy.gov/wf/wf0408_muslimidentity.html
At first when the spirit of freedom of religion was being followed...things were wonderful. Respect and understanding is shown and IT WORKS......But then the school starts to legislate and thats when things go bad......
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There should be absolutely NOTHING wrong with a nativity scene at the City Hall. Just as there should be absolutely nothing wrong with a minora. In fact I would strongly support both.
My wife is a Property Manager for affordable housing. Because they receive monies from the government through setion 8 or HUD and many others....they are not allowed to have any nativity at Christmas time. No Crosses. In fact, they are not to have anything that directly references the Christian Religion. They are allowed a Tree....and thats about it. However....for Hanukah, they were allowed to have the Star of David, the Minora, the Dradle with Hebraic Lettering and many signs of the Jewish faith.
Now I think it was wonderful that they were able to decorate for Hanukkah. Don't take that right away. But allow the Christians the same rights.
You know I have to wonder. All these proclaimed agnostics and athiests......How many of them are celebrating Christmas and buying gifts and tree's and the like???? I was listening to the radio where some artist (I did not catch the name) was making a huge stink as she was realy pushing her album. She had such an elitist or superior atitude when proclaiming that she had recorded a Christmas Album without all that "Christ and Christian Junk"......It truely boggles the mind.......  
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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It's really quite simple Pete. DC said he had no problem with cities, counties or states imposing stupid laws, but not the federal government. Isn't that promoting stupidity, only on a smaller scale?
And I am somewhat as people call it "liberal on many social issues". You see, I'm quite aware that our infrastructure, education and health of our nation "as a whole" is and will be the very foundation that dictates the greatness or lack their of concerning the future of our nation.
Not the sand in Iraq.
Just because I care about our future generations and their well being, I don't believe constitutes me as a liberal. I believe it makes me a concerned Patriot. Do you even know how far down the list our country has become in regards to education and health care?
If you did, you too may become concerned.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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So you promote stupidity on a small scale but not on a large scale?
In short, yes. I support the rights of individuals and communities to be stupid amongst themselves. I do not support California and Massachusettes exporting their stupidity to the rest of us. I also reserve the right to judge each instance on a case by case basis. See, I'm trying to speak as generally as I can and for each thing I mention you throw up a specific example that doesn't fit... My generalizations are just that, GENERALIZATIONS.... If you want to talk specifics, then pick one and we'll talk about it.
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I don't believe that the millions of Christians that have organized themselves into a "political faction" got your memo.
I don't speak for them and they don't speak for me.. we have an arrangement, I will discuss GENERALLY what they believe and SPECIFICALLY what I believe and our arrangement works out well.
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But I was unnaware that it was a "federal mandate" that children wear safety helmets while riding bikes? I thought it was "state to state or local municipalities"
Again, I may have picked a bad example... but you are focused on the details and not the big picture simply because of your burning desire to prove people wrong. Broad philosophical discussions don't work well when you get bogged down in the details. And that is exactly how these laws come about... I can show you 8 million kids that play baseball every day and don't get hurt, one kid gets hit in the head, they blame it on the bat and *POOF* you can't use those bats any more.
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To you on a personal level you mean?
No Pit, to everybody. We have righted some great wrongs in this country with respect to women and minorities and there are a couple great wrongs left to be righted... but in general, the naggy nitpicky stuff is getting worse, far worse.
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As I said earlier, I'm against "most ALL" regulations instituted by our government. While some seem perfectly fine with regulations that "suit their desires".
ie...... Marijuana laws, mairrage laws, moral laws of any kind other than to protect children and I could go on.
You mean on to stuff like minimum wage requirements, universal healthcare, higher corporate taxes, extended welfare, and stuff like that?
yebat' Putin
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So you promote stupidity on a small scale but not on a large scale?
In short, yes. I support the rights of individuals and communities to be stupid amongst themselves. I do not support California and Massachusettes exporting their stupidity to the rest of us. I also reserve the right to judge each instance on a case by case basis. See, I'm trying to speak as generally as I can and for each thing I mention you throw up a specific example that doesn't fit... My generalizations are just that, GENERALIZATIONS.... If you want to talk specifics, then pick one and we'll talk about it.
Okay, I'll pick a specific. Gay mairrage. How in the world would gays getting married effect you? How would it undermine "your morals"? And why would our government "mandate" that certain people NOT be able to marry?
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I don't believe that the millions of Christians that have organized themselves into a "political faction" got your memo.
I don't speak for them and they don't speak for me.. we have an arrangement, I will discuss GENERALLY what they believe and SPECIFICALLY what I believe and our arrangement works out well.
So do you or don't you support such ideas organizing in an attempt to legislate their religious beliefs on our nation?
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But I was unnaware that it was a "federal mandate" that children wear safety helmets while riding bikes? I thought it was "state to state or local municipalities"
Again, I may have picked a bad example... but you are focused on the details and not the big picture simply because of your burning desire to prove people wrong. Broad philosophical discussions don't work well when you get bogged down in the details. And that is exactly how these laws come about... I can show you 8 million kids that play baseball every day and don't get hurt, one kid gets hit in the head, they blame it on the bat and *POOF* you can't use those bats any more.
While I do agree with you in principal that the feds have gone too far. Yet at the same time, there are justifiable and necassary reasons for the betterment of our nation as a whole that do justify their "interferance" as many seem to indicate that it is.
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To you on a personal level you mean?
No Pit, to everybody. We have righted some great wrongs in this country with respect to women and minorities and there are a couple great wrongs left to be righted... but in general, the naggy nitpicky stuff is getting worse, far worse.
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As I said earlier, I'm against "most ALL" regulations instituted by our government. While some seem perfectly fine with regulations that "suit their desires".
ie...... Marijuana laws, mairrage laws, moral laws of any kind other than to protect children and I could go on.
You mean on to stuff like minimum wage requirements, universal healthcare, higher corporate taxes, extended welfare, and stuff like that?
Extended welfare? No. Job based education provided to get those ON welfare OFF of welfare? Yes.........
But yes, some of those other things I promote. I don't promote hospitals dumping people out on the side of the road. I don't like seeing the elderly who built this damned country having to choose between food and medicine.
Minimum wage? Of course I do. Actually I promote a "liveable wage" structure in many jobs. Why? Because at some point we need to quit slowly ignoring and watch a repititious cycle of abstract poverty. Helping create and perpetuate a "working class poor" in our country only serves a continuation of division, not the unification of our nation.
So yes, I'm trying to look at "the big picture" rather than "my own little world".
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Okay, I'll pick a specific. Gay mairrage. How in the world would gays getting married effect you? How would it undermine "your morals"? And why would our government "mandate" that certain people NOT be able to marry?
It won't, it wouldn't, I don't know. They can call if whatever they want but if gay people want all of the rights of marriage, then they should have them. Next.
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So do you or don't you support such ideas organizing in an attempt to legislate their religious beliefs on our nation?
I support any groups right to organize to try to influence the government they live under... whether it's a religous group, a workers union, gun owners, teachers, doctors, gays, environmentalists, whatever.... I think it's sad when they stop thinking for themselves and just start following the group, which happens in all of the above groups, but organizing to try to increase your influence is not only acceptable, it's important.
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While I do agree with you in principal that the feds have gone too far. Yet at the same time, there are justifiable and necassary reasons for the betterment of our nation as a whole that do justify their "interferance" as many seem to indicate that it is.
Not all legislation is bad Pit.. yes, I pick and choose the ones I like, I openly admit that... as does everybody else if they want to be honest about it. I'm not in favor of the chaos that would result from a citizenry with no restraints... but I'm even more afraid of an all-powerful government with it's hand in everything we do and say... How we live, how we educate and raise our kids, how we work, how we socialize, how we communicate, how we spend and save our money....
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But yes, some of those other things I promote.
I have no problem with that.. just stop acting like other people pick and choose for impure reasons but all of your reasons are justified.
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I don't promote hospitals dumping people out on the side of the road. I don't like seeing the elderly who built this damned country having to choose between food and medicine.
Minimum wage? Of course I do. Actually I promote a "liveable wage" structure in many jobs. Why? Because at some point we need to quit slowly ignoring and watch a repititious cycle of abstract poverty. Helping create and perpetuate a "working class poor" in our country only serves a continuation of division, not the unification of our nation.
That's fine, I just happen to think that the government is largely responsible for helping to create a lot of the problems that you now want them to fix. The poor are overtaxed, the middle class is WAY overtaxed, and the rich are also overtaxed and an enormous percentage of the money taken in is wasted... spent on bureaucracy to help the United States government get to the bottom of steroids in baseball and the spygate scandal in the NFL... Did you know that about 5% (almost 15 Million) of the people in this country derive their working income either directly from the federal government or indirectely as government contractors or people working under federally funded grants? The national average is about 2% of each state are employed by the state and local governments... That's 7% of the population that works for the government.... In addition to paying the money that goes out in the form of welfare and the money that goes to buying munitions for the military and the money that goes into building roads and such, you and 13 of your working friends are funding at least 1 government employee.... That's too many, WAY too many.
Here, this is sort of what I'm talking about....
Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
CDL License Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Gasoline Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Inventory Tax
IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax),
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax),
Liquor Tax,
Luxury Tax,
Marriage License Tax,
Medicare Tax,
Property Tax,
Real Estate Tax,
Service charge taxes,
Social Security Tax,
Road Usage Tax (Truckers),
Sales Taxes,
Recreational Vehicle Tax,
School Tax,
State Income Tax,
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA),
Telephone Federal Excise Tax,
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax,
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Tax,
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax,
Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax,
Telephone State and Local Tax,
Telephone Usage Charge Tax,
Utility Tax,
Vehicle License Registration Tax,
Vehicle Sales Tax,
Watercraft Registration Tax,
Well Permit Tax,
Workers Compensation Tax.
yebat' Putin
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You know DC, as per usual, we aren't really "that far apart". And I must agree that much of what I promote is to help "overcome the wrongs" that our government itself has helped create. And yes, to an extent I do believe most of my reasons are "justified". Mainly because they really won't "help me as an individual or my family" in large part. I want to see "my nation begin to heal" as a people. And I do believe that is a very valid "justification" for my beliefs. Which is why I believe we need "new blood" in our leadership. Will it help? Who knows. But the status quo from both parties has proven to be a miserable failure. And once again I think I have the golden oppertunity to send BOTH parties a message................... "If you insider/lifer type politicians don't get off of your collective asses and put the American people first? We'll kick all of you insiders out and put the outsiders in!" Which is a far better message than I've been able to deliver via my power of the vote in a VERY long time! JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Pit, I just don't see how voting for one of the most liberal senators in the United States government is sending the message you think it is... It might be sending the republicans a message, but it's going to send a message to the democrats of... "see, they agree with us."
As for them getting off their collective asses and working for the people.. one can only hope. Far too often the politician changes to fit into his party than the parties changing to fit their politicians... Remember a few years ago when the democrats took over the house and senate and everybody was certain that it was a sign of change because so many of the democrats were of the old southern variety, very moderate almost conservative in their beliefs? Well, what has changed? Other than the fact that the dems sent up two ultra liberals to run for President... do you think they got the message?
yebat' Putin
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I can't say that I disagree with your "perception". But mine differs from you. You see, the "Almighty Clintons" have been the major power brokers within the democratic party. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY that has been a long time democrat that I know, EVER thought ANYONE could compete with Hillary. Too many people owed her and Bill way too many favors! And I believe they still might "steal it" from Obama. But the odds of anybody unseating Hillary for the nomination was slim and none just a year ago. So yes, I do believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that this will send a message to "Washington Lifers". Even the Democrats. Now if he can just get Jim Webb on the ticket...................
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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BTW- DC, ANY TIME ANY DEMOCRAT runs for president it's the same old song and dance.................. They're "ulta liberal".  Clinton, Gore, Clinton, Obama. Like I said earlier, Jim Webb would balance the ticket out nicely.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Nobody, and I mean NOBODY that has been a long time democrat that I know, EVER thought ANYONE could compete with Hillary.
Which just proves that long time republicans are smarter because most of the long time repubs I know have been saying for several years that once the public finds out who Hillary really is, it's not going to be easy for her.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
BTW- DC, ANY TIME ANY DEMOCRAT runs for president it's the same old song and dance..................
They're "ulta liberal".
That's not my fault.
yebat' Putin
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I don't think it's nearly as much what "she is" as it is what "he's not".
I honestly believe that "most Americans" are sick of the status quo that has been predicated upon us from "Washington Lifers" on both sides of the aisle and simply want "new blood" in there.
Do you honestly feel that John McCain is going to be the leader of "the conservative party"? Or do you simply percieve him as "the lesser of the two evils"?
Bush? He has not been anything resembling a conservative.
McCain? He is not a true conservative.
Hillary? Yet another "insider" with simply more of the same.
Don't get me wrong. If McCain gets elected, while I do NOT agree with all of his policies, overall I feel we'll be a LOT better off than we are now.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
BTW- DC, ANY TIME ANY DEMOCRAT runs for president it's the same old song and dance..................
They're "ulta liberal".
That's not my fault.
The only part I feel is "your fault" is that you buy into it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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So Hillary and Obama aren't pretty darn liberal?
yebat' Putin
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I feel Obama is on a "social level". Otherwise, no I don't believe he is. Hillary? I would have to agree with you there, yes. But you forgot the "ultra" part this time. What gives?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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