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The Dems want to do the same thing in Iraq that we did in Veitnam. It sadens me that Americans have no back bone anymore to finish a job once it has been started. How would the ones who have given there lives feel if we give up and they have died for nothing? I don't care what you believe got this war started, we are there and we need to finish what we start. If we keep this cut and run mentallity, what are we teaching our youth? So many wonder what is wrong with the youth of today, well just look in a mirror and you will find an answer. The cut and run attitude does not stop with war. Our country and society has evolved to accept divorce as a cut and run method. This in my opinion is worse than any war. The childeren pay the price for the selfishness of a parent. Did these children chose to be here? Did they chose they're parents? It all goes back to finishing what you start no matter why you started it!  More cut and run mentality comes with living with in our means. We would'nt have a foreclosure problem had people said to themselves that we need to buy what we can afford in good times or bad. But guess what if we don't we can cut and run. Believe it or not we have a cut and run attitude about gas prices. We knew it was coming for years and ignored it by buying bigger and bigger vehicles. Now we complain about the price of gas but don't have the guts to cut and run on our SUV'S. 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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The Dems want to do the same thing in Iraq that we did in Veitnam.
I"d like to point out that they talk that way, but don't vote that way. With that said...good. We never should've gone to Vietnam and were there far too long. We should've never gone to Iraq and we've been there far too long.
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Our country and society has evolved to accept divorce as a cut and run method.
I personally think far too many people get married. Marriage is for some people...I wouldn't even say most people...but we live in a society that encourages it for all people.
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More cut and run mentality comes with living with in our means. We would'nt have a foreclosure problem had people said to themselves that we need to buy what we can afford in good times or bad. But guess what if we don't we can cut and run.
Believe it or not we have a cut and run attitude about gas prices. We knew it was coming for years and ignored it by buying bigger and bigger vehicles. Now we complain about the price of gas but don't have the guts to cut and run on our SUV'S.
I think you're trying to stretch the analogy a bit here.
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I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Don't get too excited. Obama and Clinton are saying that in thier speechs.. but if either gets elected, they will find it a lot harder to pull out of Iraq then they think.. To be honest, I'm all for ending that war. But I'm for ending it with a clear victory or an achievement of the goals that we set in the beginning. Cutting and running isn't the answer, but to end it as winners (if there really is such a thing in war) is preferred. The one thing about one of the Dems,, Barack Obama, is that he was against the war in the beginning. He's remained steadfast against the war. You may not like the guy, but he says what he means and sticks to it. I actually, watched his wife (michelle Obama) speak on a live news conference from Wisconsin yesterday... Hell, I'd vote for her if she were running,,,  funny and smart lady. almost reminded me of Reagan a little in the way she worked the room. And right now, I'm leaning in the direction of either McCain or Obama. I don't like Hillary Clinton and Huckabee is almost an unknown to me.. I don't get him. ( I really should look harder at Huckabee so I make sure I don't miss what he's saying) I sure hope we as a people, make the right choice this time... As for the SUV comment, I work and I earn in order to provide the things I want.. We (my wife and I) have TWO SUVs... WE like them, we get to where we want to go in all weather and in NE Ohio, it's almost bordering on required in the Winter .. (I know some would argue that)
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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There is no "winning" in Iraq, unless we just go guerrilla and lay waste to anything and anyone that pops up in front of the soldiers. The war in Iraq is like saying we are going to arrest all the people named John, but you aren't allowed to look at ID or ask them their name first, you just have to know if they are named John or not. Good luck.
Packing up and leaving isn't good either, but a controlled withdraw and transfer of power may be the only way out, it seems Iraq is not taking things on their own, and maybe facing the reality that we are leaving may give them a kick in the pants to actually take this whole thing seriously.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Yes we didn't learn a darn thing from Vietnam about the use of the military for purpose of nation building.
It is long past time that the Iraqi's assume full responsibility of being a sovereign country without help from Amercian soldiers and taxpayers.
You can call it cut and run. I call it coming to our senses. And it certainly never made sense to me why in this country where taxpayer funding of Christian schools is prohibited, American soldiers are put at risk for establishment of that Islamic Republic.
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While SUV's are certainly part of the problem let's also talk about another one of President Bush grand plans that has cost the taxpayer plenty. First we have an 2004 article from the libertarian minded CATO Institute's website: http://www.cato.org/research/articles/hanke-040816.htmlIf oil reserves aren't the problem, what is? The real problem is our oil policies. We inadvertently give aid and succor to OPEC, the world's clumsy oil cartel. That has been especially true since Nov. 13, 2001, when President George W. Bush announced that the U.S. would fill the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to capacity. Mightn't this plan have a little something to do with the rise in the price of oil, from $22 then to $40 now? When the President ordered the reserve to be filled, the spot and future oil prices were in rough balance. Since then the spot prices shot up and have exceeded future prices (until recently) by a wide margin, indicating scarce private inventories. Indeed, private oil inventories fell to a 29-year low on Jan. 23, 2004. The pain of higher oil prices could have easily been avoided if George W. Bush had followed his father's lead. On Jan. 16, 1991, the day the first Gulf war began, George H.W. Bush ordered a drawdown of the government's reserve. The results were dramatic: The spot price of oil fell from $32.25 per barrel to $21.48 in one day. More important, the positive spread between spot and four-month future prices also fell, from $5.90 per barrel to $1.65, indicating a higher comfort level with the adequacy of private inventories. The lesson is clear: We have an oil weapon, too. The strategic reserve should be used to bloody OPEC's nose, not to prop up a cartel. ****** And now this from Bush's 2007 State of the Union Address: "And to further protect America against severe disruptions to our oil supply, I ask Congress to double the current capacity of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...301075_pf.html
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Meanwhile, in related news, Kosovo is working its way to becoming an independent nation from Serbia, largely the result of a war which "ended" 8 years ago or so.... Iraq is still in the midst of it and some people say it can't be won... We won't know if it was "won" for quite some time after it's "over"... And all of the words in quotes are done so because they are all subjective and the concept of who "won" and when it was "over" will be interpreted differently by different people..
yebat' Putin
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Just wondering? Why the use of the term cut and run?
I'm not so sure what it is exactly that we're trying to accomplish?
First, we were told that they needed their independance from Sadaam. Then we were told they needed elections. Now, four or five years later, we're told that it needs to be made a stable country.
Every time we reach the goal they say we're trying to accomplish, it seems they just change the goal to yet something else to excuse staying there.
We can not stop their internal cultural strife between the warrng factions, any more than Great Britan could have solved or stopped our civil war.
That's not cut and run. That's permiting people in their own country, to settle their own battles between themselves. I'm never surprised at the lengths our government goes to in order to excuse their actions.
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Quote:
Meanwhile, in related news, Kosovo is working its way to becoming an independent nation from Serbia, largely the result of a war which "ended" 8 years ago or so.... Iraq is still in the midst of it and some people say it can't be won... We won't know if it was "won" for quite some time after it's "over"... And all of the words in quotes are done so because they are all subjective and the concept of who "won" and when it was "over" will be interpreted differently by different people..
Who did the fighting for Serbia and stayed there and protected them during the transition? and spent billions to rebuild them? 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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yebat' Putin
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The UN and NATO.
Both disguised terrorist organizations if you ask me.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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We have become a cut and run country . . . . The Dems want to do the same thing in Iraq that we did in Veitnam.
Uh, get back to us, when that actually happens.
Sure the Dems WANT us out. But we haven't cut and run from anywhere yet.
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The cut and run attitude does not stop with war. Our country and society has evolved to accept divorce as a cut and run method. This in my opinion is worse than any war. The childeren pay the price for the selfishness of a parent.
Did these children chose to be here? Did they chose they're parents? It all goes back to finishing what you start no matter why you started it!
So, what you are saying is that NO MATTER what the reasons are divorce is unacceptable? Have you EVER thought that it may be the best thing a person could do to save their children? Are you aware that some people HAVE to cut and run to save the lives of the children/themselves? Now is that selfish? I don't think so. You are making a broad statement that I seriously believe you have delusions about. Have you ever known someone or had a family member that was abused brutally? Would you tell them to stay with their abuser or would you tell them to "cut and run" ?
I am a victim of abuse, both physical and mental, from a violent alcoholic. You think I should have stayed in that marriage when on a fairly regular basis I had a knife pulled on me because I said something that the alcoholic took the wrong way? I initially left him November 24th, 2003 because on Nov 23rd, 2003 he beat me so bad that I couldn't see out of my right eye, threatened to kill me with my own butcher knife and then threatened suicide WHILE HE WAS DRUNK. Ask GM about that time in my life, or any of the FEW others that knew why I cut and ran. But because it had been beaten into my head that marriage is for life, I like a complete idiot let the bastage back into my life and the abuse CONTINUED! I can remember an incident late in 2006 when the drunk came home from work so tanked that when I said "Hello" to him when he walked in that he went off and started getting viscious with me. I had no choice in my situation but to "cut and run". It was to protect myself, my adult daughter and my cats. He would have killed me if I had stayed in that situation.
I hope and pray that you NEVER have to pick up the pieces of a family members life because you THINK that divorce isn't right. I hope and pray that you do not have daughters that may get into a bad situation where their lives and the lives of their children are at risk because of some tool of a man that thinks abusing them physically and mentally is ok because you don't think divorce is an option.
just my 2 cents.
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Jan,
I was never aware you had to go through all that. I am glad that you have gotten into a better situation now. I grew up with an abusive alcoholic father so i underatnd some of what you went through.
I dont think though, that he was referring to a situation like yours. Obviously you were justified with divorce. I think he was more talking about the people who just casually get divorced becaus it is easier to do that then make a effort to make their marriage work.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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atomic, I have to say that you are both right... some divorces are obviously justifiable and nobody in their right mind would suggest that a person should subject themselves or their children to physical harm just to try to finish a marriage that they started... on the flip side, a 50% divorce rate is insane and a lot of it is because people would just rather split than work on some minor issues within the marriage.
yebat' Putin
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I think violence and abuse go without saying, Atomic. Your duty is to keep you and your children safe. But there are many people whose vows mean nothing to them. They leave due to laziness, boredom, thoughts that things would be better with another person, etc.
People make some damn bad choices in picking their partners also. They are under some delusion that they can change the person and end up putting themselves and their children in harm's way a lot of the time. There are rarely people who just suddenly become crazy, irrational people after marriage, there are usually signs and many of them. People need to choose more wisely when planning to have children with someone.
Divorce is extremely hard on kids and people should try their hardest not to break up a family unless they have tried virtually everything to keep it together. You can move on after the kids have grown.
The point is, a lot of married people with kids do cut and run without giving it enough thought and energy and realizing what it does to the children.
Just my opinion.
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You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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I agree with every word you said.... I'm going to go shower. 
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
I think violence and abuse go without saying, Atomic. Your duty is to keep you and your children safe. But there are many people whose vows mean nothing to them. They leave due to laziness, boredom, thoughts that things would be better with another person, etc.
People make some damn bad choices in picking their partners also. They are under some delusion that they can change the person and end up putting themselves and their children in harm's way a lot of the time. There are rarely people who just suddenly become crazy, irrational people after marriage, there are usually signs and many of them. People need to choose more wisely when planning to have children with someone.
Divorce is extremely hard on kids and people should try their hardest not to break up a family unless they have tried virtually everything to keep it together. You can move on after the kids have grown.
The point is, a lot of married people with kids do cut and run without giving it enough thought and energy and realizing what it does to the children.
Just my opinion.
Me and Jules agree 100% on something!
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Be as it may Kingo, his statement was more of a broad generalization. That is why I put that out there. There ARE situations that divorce is the best for everyone involved because if they don't leave they could end up on one of those crime shows about how they were murdered. I left him last may because in March the straw that broke the camel's back happened. I came home from my FULL time job which I had to pay ALL our bills because he couldn't stay sober and keep a job and he got peeved about something and pulled my boning knife out and stood there staring at me for almost an hour. Holding it by the hilt blade down. I told my friends online at that time if I were to suddenly stop responding to them that were to call the police department in the town I was living. I lived directly across the street from the police station because of situations just like this. I could get away from him  and run to the station hand them my keys and have them arrest him immediately. I was able to make my move when my uncle finally got one of my trailers that my pops had left me when he died sold. I got the cash, bought a new vehicle and moved the hell out as soon as I could. It took about a month to get completely out but I got out intact. Living with a violent alcoholic isn't anything I would wish on anybody. It's not fun. Right now I have a friend that is in physically violent situation and I am praying that she and the kids get out before he does any damage to the kids, she's already been damaged. I don't think you saw the thread about my daughter and her 2 beautiful daughters that I had to send someone to rescue because the tool that she was with was doing heroin in front of my grandbabies and leaving his kit laying around where the oldest could have found it. At least she wasn't married to the jerk, but does have a child with him....so Corpus, should she have stayed and put my grandbabies at risk because you think this country is "cut and run" ?
![[Linked Image from i8.photobucket.com]](http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/jlq112atomicdog/janstags/browns%20tags/atomic.jpg)
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I do remember the thread about your daughter. Good for you and her.
You do realize that we are all here for you right? Dont ever be afraid to ask anyone of us that is geographically close for help if you need it. I know GM volunteered to ride out and get your daughter and make sure she was safe, I would have been more than happy to go with him.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Thanks King. I really appreciate that. I sent the Marines after her.  A buddy of mine is a former Marine and can be rather intimidating so he went to get her and the kids. Little did I know at the time that he would fall for my girls like he did. But that's fine with me cuz he's such a good guy and does care alot about her.
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The point is, a lot of married people with kids do cut and run without giving it enough thought and energy and realizing what it does to the children.
Flip side of that is staying together isn't always best for the kids either. I'm not talking about abuse but when kids see the parents avoiding each other, never expressing neither anger or love , seeing a couple who cohabitate and get along without caring or showing any emotion at all towards each other, that does damage all of it's own . Keep in mind what that ambivilance does to teach the children how to interact with their own spouse when the time comes .
As for choosing a mate based on wisdom ? Good luck with that one . The mind may know whats best but the heart wants what the heart wants. JMHO
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I'm glad you finally got away from asshead 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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My point was that a lot of people don't try.
Agreed. If you get to the point of the marriage when you are as indifferent as he describes.. then you didn't care enough to fix it.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Quote:
My point was that a lot of people don't try.
Agreed. If you get to the point of the marriage when you are as indifferent as he describes.. then you didn't care enough to fix it.
I actually deleted my last post, I think it would tick off too many people. 
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Well I know how sensitive you are to other peoples feelings. 
yebat' Putin
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I don't think so Jules, I do believe that there are alot of folks out that have the throw away mentality in this country. I just had to say my peace that NOT all people that get divorced are using it as a throw away thing. Some people do get divorced for the right reasons. But many more (like celebs) use it like some people use abortion. (sorry had to go there)
I'm so glad that most folks on here do understand where I am coming from and that I do not advocate divorce for the sake of divorce but for damn good reasons. (i.e. abuse~be it physical abuse/mental abuse or substance abuse that leads to the afore mentioned other abuse)
You are both right about the fact that some people just don't give a tinker's damn and use it like it's a way to get rid of a bad taste in their mouth instead working forward and trying to make things better for their relationship.
That's why I will think long and hard before I ever get in that situation again. I gave that asshead 17 years of my life for him to urinate it away over booze and abuse.
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Atomic,
I always think that when people make those cut and run statements, they are usually people that have not done a lick for fighting in a war, and in this added case, been married over 3 days!
Yes, there are alot of people who get married for the wrong reason but if two people are unhappy, then why should they stay married? Or let the kids see how bad the marriage is, because one thing of for sure, the kids will then emulate the parents! In your case, there was no other choice but to leave. And what people do not realize is that you probably gave your ex 1000 chances to change.
Like I said, those people who talk that cut and run crap about war and marriage do not understand either!
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Like I said, those people who talk that cut and run crap about war and marriage do not understand either!
Right.. those people who have been married for a decade or two, who have endured the struggles that come with it, who have grown closer to their spouse instead of apart, those who have raised kids together, lived through the good times and bad.. they obviously don't understand marriage like those who got divorced... 
yebat' Putin
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Both statements are correct you guys.
Until you have walked a mile in another person's shoes you can't say what's right or wrong. I have served my country with pride but not during wartime and I've been through the wringer with my marriage. I can see both sides.....my mom and pops were married for 40 years before my mom passed away. They had their fair share of problems and that is another reason why I tried to make the situation work even though I know from past experience with alcoholics that they don't change their spots until it's to late.
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atomic,
One thing anyone SHOULD know about marriage, especially after you have been married for some time is that you SHOULD NOT judge another couples marriage. For whatever reason the couple split, that was their decision. Yes, there are people, young and old who go into marriage for the wrong reasons. But there are situations in marriages that are un-thinkable and someone else would leave sooner than later. SO that cut/run phrase is a does not make a lick of sense, because someone else in that situation might react the same way ( meaning leave the marriage..etc).
As far as war, there is a time when a war/conflict should come to an end. The cut/run phrase is a nice phrase to use when you are typing from your couch. But sitting over in Bagdad, eating sand-sandwiches might give a different perspective, or sitting in some hospital. Yes, we should help the people of Iraq but they have to want to help themselves also. And at this point, can anyone really say that they are trying to do that.
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The Dems want to do the same thing in Iraq that we did in Veitnam. It sadens me that Americans have no back bone anymore to finish a job once it has been started. How would the ones who have given there lives feel if we give up and they have died for nothing?
Well, Corpus... I don't think it's an issue of Americans lacking backbone. Americans have always been made of the same stuff, and have always shown the same kind of commitment and resolve over the generations and centuries. They've also shown division, when the issue isn't clear-cut. I think that's what you're seeing now, with the war in Iraq. I think sentiment has been turning for some time now, one citizen at a time. Some Americans were opposed to the idea of us declaring war from the very beginning, while others have simply grown weary of the endless grind, with no end in sight. This goes for many Republican voters as well as Democratic voters, by the way. Nowadays, the anti-war sentiment seems to be crossing all lines- political. ideological, economic, age, and many others. That comes from having a society that is allowed not just free speech, but free thought. Used to be that Libs were against it while Cons were for it. Not so much any more, because NOBODY is seeing much upside for us being there. Free thought is bringing more and more Americans to the same conclusion- we made a mistake- and it's time to rectify it. To be honest, I see the next President, whether R or D, executing a pull-out... so don't put it all on the Dems.
I truly believe the main problem is (and has been) the lack of an identifiable military goal. When we first went to Iraq, folks were feeling the sting of 9/11, and were in a mood to attack anyone of Arabic descent. GWB was given carte blanche, and sent us in... ostensibly to root out the terrorists who we believed orchestrated the WTC and Pentagon attacks. Soon after, it became evident that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with the Al Qaeda bunch that did that foul stuff, nor did he know where Osama Bin Laden was hiding... so the focus then magically shifts to Weapons of Mass Destruction. Guess what? No WMD's, either. The only thing we managed to get right was capturing Saddam... a man whom we propped up and put into power after we used him to overthrow the Shah of Iran.
So.. no direct terrorist links, no WMD's... what now? Either of those outcomes could have been considered "Mission Accomplished," but still we are told that "the job isn't finished." We aren't told what will actually constitute a finished job, we have no viable timetable for the end of this thing, and American citizens are being asked to foot the bill for it all- in money, sacrifice -and some cases, blood. We've done it- we've made the commitment for 7+ years- a commitment that has lasted longer than our commitment to either WW I or WW II... so please don't talk to me about a "cut & run" mentality.
We still have "staying power"... we're now just starting to question why we're still staying- as citizens, we're right to do so.
Americans have always been willing to stiffen their backs when called to rally behind a worthy cause, and we Americans living today are no exception. The problem with this war is simple... it's no longer (and maybe never was...) a worthy enough cause... and a growing number of people on ALL sides of American ideology are starting to see it.
As for your most important (and most relevant) question: "How would the ones who have given there lives feel if we give up and they have died for nothing?"
I can't even presume to speak for them, Corpus... but I can speak for myself. I was against the idea of the US declaring war on Iraq from the very beginning. When the announcement was made, I was like: "WTF? Where did Iraq come from? What happened to finding Bin Laden?" I thought it was ill-advised, ill-timed, aimed at the wrong adversary, and would accomplish little or nothing... therefore I've always believed that these fine, brave men and women died for nothing... and they deserved better. They served and died for a President who ignored the advice of many of his top military advisors, shoved all our chips to the middle of the table, and placed us smack-dab in the middle of an unwinnable situation... all on what now appears to be just a whim and a hunch.
My best friend is a Colonel in the US Air Force, and could be called to a "military hotspot" at any time. He'll do it with pride, and I'll forever admire him beyond words for that. He's deserving of all the respect I can give him, because he's ready to lay down his life for a cause that may be his President's or his Congress's- but may not even be his. That's the true definition of sacrifice. And if my very best friend in Life is going to do that, he should at least be able to do it for a more righteous cause than this one. He deserves to lay down his life for a more deserving Commander-In-Chief than George W. Bush. That's my word- and I'll never back down from it... because I love and respect this Human Being more than the Man In Office who would send him to his death. Curse me if you want, but that's how I feel- and I won't apologize for it. I suspect that there are many other Parents/Husbands/Sisters/Brothers/Best Friends/Co-workers/Casual Acquaintences of persons in military service who would say the same.
For me, the Office of the Presidency is (and always will be) sacrosanct. The Human Being occupying that seat is not. After having lived through 8 years of GW's "Texas Sheriff Politics," I can easily say that virtually NO OTHER PERSON I can think of would have placed Our Country on it's current path. Be his successor a Republican, Democrat, or "None of the Above," I pray that our new President's first priority is to find a safe, effective way to bring home our friends and neighbors. It's time for us to "get outta Dodge"... and leave the Iraqis to figure out what they will make of themselves.
In the process, I hope we take the opportunity to do the same. Eight years of foolishness and bad policy is a lot to fix.
The time to start is now.
.02
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,758 |
well-said Clem. Though I think it may be a little too venomous towards Bush, but I for one from the beginning was against going to War with Iraq. It was completely irrational besides being kind of close to where the trouble began. Afghanistan, I understood which we haven't quite succeeded, maybe because we wanted to look elsewhere? Pakistan is actually becoming more likely than what I saw Iraq to be. On the World's stage. Saddam was mostly harmless. He was controllable. A littlle muscle flex here and there is nothing. All we ended up doing was creating a power vacuum and groups trying to seize it. And gave the terrorists more fodder to fall back on.. We should have finished the job in Afghanistan and ended it there. I really don't think we as a country are a punch of anti-war pansies, but more of a country of Strike us and we'll strike you back harder kind of people, and you can see it in the support with Afghanistan.. and other wars. As for Iraq, I really don't see us staying there helping, nor can i think of an easy way to pull-out, but if we pull-out.. expect to go back if Iraq hits us, and I will surely be for that then.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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