DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk 2025 NFL Draft Draft IV

I agree, plus, if Dart pans out, does it really matter where he is selected? It would take a hardcore complainer to moan about taking a player 10 slots early if he is playing well.

I’m having reservations about drafting Carter also after hearing about his injuries. This has happened to us before and let’s face it we’re still the Browns. Hunter at 2 or aQB we really like is fine although i’m not crazy about drafting any QB in this draft at 2 except maybe Ward. Who knows we may end up taking the DT from Michigan at 2.

When JW gets involved you know it's serious!

#DudeWipes

J/C

I think Hunter is the best WR and the best CB. I think all the QBs outside Ward are developmental prospects or just not that good. I don't think any of those QBs help us this year, maybe not ever. I'm not passing on special players to have a chance to maybe get Gardner Minshew (the comp on Dart's combine profile on NFL.com) down the road.

If we sit at 2, I'd take Hunter. His ball skills are incredible. He's a great athlete. He's got innate awareness that can't be taught. He makes his QB right even when throws are off. Berry has said they see him primarily as a receiver.

The no one will care if he pans out argument sounds great. ...if the QB "pans out." Unfortunately, I don't think it's a given, perhaps even it's unlikely. Of course that also depends on what panning out looks like to you. If panning out is not looking awful and maybe winning 6 games a year, maybe they pan out. If panning out is consistent top half of the league QB play, I'm not holding out much hope.

To me, the position/role Dart would fill if we drafted him is perennial Browns QB washout that couldn't even beat out Kenny Pickett.

We take him at 2, he's going to get rushed onto the field too soon and likely fail. We need positive impact from the pick at the top. Draft a Kirk Cousins type later in the draft where they should go. Draft Milroe at 33 and build a Taysom Hill package as he grows. Don't pass on studs at 2 for projects.

Dart in the third round? Sure let's see if we can develop him. Dart over All-Pro caliber prospects who can contribute from day one? Couldn't be me.

This is what happens when you don’t have enough top end talent in the first 5-6 picks in the first round. If Cam Ward was in last year’s class he would be the 5th rated QB at best. Only 2 guys are considered top tier talent in this draft and now we find out one has injury concerns. Hunter probably is the best choice for us at 2 and there’s even a question about what his position is. It figures that we have such a high pick in this draft class situation. Mason Graham may end up being the safest option for us.

No but it would really matter if he flops and the Browns passed on a HOF'er at #2.


You think Dart is a top 10-12 draft pick?

Sadly you have to make the picks before their pro careers begin. Hindsight is 20/20. Players who do and don't turn out to be the winners is nothing more than a test of how well you evaluated the talent. You have to base your picks on the information at hand with all factors considered. At the horse track you can't wait until the race is over to place your bet.

The flipside is that one dude who was a top5 DT with the arthritic shoulders. I think the Redskins drafted him and I thought I saw his name recently.

In THIS draft? Yes. For a team with only Kenny Pickett at QB? Yes.

Did anyone think Bo Nix was a top 12 (12th) pick last year? Sean Payton knows a thing or two about QBs.

Ventrone spent a week with him at the Senior Bowl. He checks off all the boxes with the possible exception of playing in a "complicated" offense in college (who does these days). He has an elite arm and terrific size while willing to be a punishing runner. I think this kid is Big Ben II.

Only having Pickett on the roster doesn't make Dart a better draft prospect. That's what desperation sounds like. At the very beginning of this thread I started it off by showing all first round QB draft picks selected since 2010. Take a look at what happens in years with a bad QB class when desperate teams reach. You like to point out the exception to the rule when the rule itself is plain to see.

I agree with Pit on this one.

For the people who criticized Berry's draft picks when he was handcuffed without a first and/or second-round pick the last three seasons, what will your opinion be after passing on a blue-chip (Hunter or Carter) for a quarterback that doesn't meet expectations? We saw what happened when Cleveland drafted a mid-level quarterback without having the support around him. Mid-level quarterbacks need the run game and defense to be successful.

What is your opinion now that the Browns drafted Garrett instead of a quarterback, which was also greatly needed? Is Carter equal to Garrett? No. Carter is a likely pro-bowl talent.

Can the Browns win with a strong defense? What did Philly do last season? Philly made two Super Bowl appearances with a strong defense.

We need to focus on what Philly, San Fransisco, and Seattle accomplished winning with mid-level quarterbacks concentrating on defense and the run game. Great quarterbacks are hard to come by. Berry does not to force something that is a low probability.

Honestly, I’d try to get this kid in the 3rd/4th. I think he has potential and I think he could be molded into Big Ben Lite.

I want us to take a pair of QBs in this draft, and I would be find with Howard being the 2nd one.

I didn't say that it would. You asked if I thought Dart was a top 10-12 prospect...and I said 'Yes'. The reality is that one can reasonably 'reach' several spots for a QB that you like. It's not akin to taking Ika & Schwartz three rounds too early.


Where did I "like" to do that?

I think Carter is too slight/light to be a DE. It is already being discussed that he will be a pass-rush specialist his rookie year while he gets bigger/stronger. He is still recovering from a shoulder injury. So a part-time #1 draft pick. I think he's a 3-4 OLB pass rusher. He will likely be a stud, but we regularly play only 2 LBs at a time...so he's an undersized DE in our scheme with some injury issues.

I think Hunter is a WR and I'd take McMillan before him. There are a few CBs who I think are better corners than him. I don't think any 188lb player is going to play both ways in the NFL.

With no sure-thing in this draft, taking a QB you like 8-10 selections "too early" makes sense...especially when you don't have a viable QB on the roster AND you intend to draft at least one QB in this draft. (That's my comment...not one I stole from Sean Payton before he drafted Bo Nix "too early".)

There is a lot of context in there ^.

2010

No. 1 — Sam Bradford (St. Louis Rams)
No. 25 — Tim Tebow (Denver Broncos)

Future Hall of Famers: 0
Franchise QBs: 0
Solid starters: 0
Low-end pro careers: 1
Disappointments: 1

2011

No. 1 — Cam Newton (Carolina Panthers)
No. 8 — Jake Locker (Tennessee Titans)
No. 10 — Blaine Gabbert (Jacksonville Jaguars)
No. 12 — Christian Ponder (Minnesota Vikings)

Future Hall of Famers: 0
Franchise QBs: 1
Solid starters: 0
Low-end pro careers: 0
Disappointments: 3

2013

No. 16 — EJ Manuel (Buffalo Bills)

Future Hall of Famers: 0
Franchise QBs: 0
Solid starters: 0
Low-end pro careers: 0
Disappointments: 1

2014

No. 3 — Blake Bortles (Jacksonville Jaguars)
No. 22 — Johnny Manziel (Cleveland Browns)
No. 32 — Teddy Bridgewater (Minnesota Vikings)

Future Hall of Famers: 0
Franchise QBs: 0
Solid starters: 0
Low-end pro careers

Here are examples of poor QB draf: 1
Disappointments: 2

2015

No. 1 — Jameis Winston (Tampa Bay Buccaneers)
No. 2 — Marcus Mariota (Tennessee Titans)

Future Hall of Famers: 0
Franchise QBs: 0
Solid starters: 0
Low-end pro careers: 2
Disappointments: 0

2019

No. 1 — Kyler Murray (Arizona Cardinals)
No. 6 — Daniel Jones (New York Giants)
No. 15 — Dwayne Haskins (Washington)

Future Hall of Famers: 0
Franchise QBs: 0
Solid starters: 2
Low-end pro careers: 0
Disappointments: 1

Here are examples of what happens when teams reach for QB's in poor QB draft classes. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You used Mahommes at #12 as an example of what can go right drafting QB's in round 1 when the QB class is weak. I'm showing you multiple examples of what happens when things go wrong.

The only reason Dart would be considered a first round pick in the draft is because this QB class is so weak.

Your points are valid Pit and well taken. What you’re saying is factual.

As has been said many times in the previous draft threads and comments, you can't predict how a draft will play out before all is said and done. I'm certainly not trying to predict failure if they draft Sanders or dart at #2. I'm saying that there is a history we can learn from that show how this scenario plays out the vast majority of the time and for it to play out in a good way would certainly take beating some pretty long odds.

And what else do NFL FO's have to base their decisions on other than the history of previous drafts?

If your only reason for Dart being a High Pick is that we have kenny Pickett, then yeah, that's desperation for sure. But picking Dart in the middle of the first round doesn't seem like a terrible idea.

I'm not sure why we are even talking about it, we won't pick him with the second pick and I'm betting he'll be gone by 33. Will howard is starting to look like a possible at that point.

Of course, some are projecting him as the 3rd best QB in this class... so this could be fun to see shake out.

Yet that's been the debate. Picking Dart or Sanders at #2.

And the issue is that the consensus has been this is a weak draft at the QB position. So being the #3 QB in a weak QB draft class is a relative thing.

I do understand that the Browns are in dire need for a QB. That's obvious to everyone. I certainly haven't objected to the Browns moving up later in the first round to draft Dart.

We have seen the Browns reach for a QB before more than once. It wasn't fun watching it shake out.

You made a statement about reaching for a QB in an average or below average QB class and you backed it up with prudent facts. I don't see how anyone can argue your point. Regardless of that we do need to draft a QB. Where that may be or whom will be a point of conjecture from now until April 24th.

Hard to argue any of that, Pit. Appreciate the work that went into getting it all on paper -- thanks.

I looked back on the drafts you skipped, to see if what is perceived as strong quarterback drafts, was the tail wagging the dawg (i.e... the eternal and unavoidable trap of using hindsight). Nope, you're spot on.

Even being considered strong drafts didn't do much to avoid them being basic coin flips though, which has always been my contention. 2018, everybody had their favorites, all unique in their skill-sets, Mayfield, Darnold, Allen and Rosen chosen (see what I did there) a total of 107 picks ahead of Jackson.

I also looked back at the 1983 draft -- three HOFers, the only one to win a Super Bowl took 13 seasons. It's crazy how unpredictable it all is.


There are two hills that I'll die on...

First: Drafting QBs will always be a crap shoot. The absolute only exception is when there is clear, indisputable talent and you're drafting #1 overall to get it.

Second: If you're going to (as this franchise always seems to do) gloss over tangibles for intangibles, you're going to lose.


Josh Allen was cast out of the mold by the Quarterback Gods. Everyone said he wasn't accurate enough. He and Mahomes were both framed as too raw and "projects". We all see how that has worked out. Meanwhile we marvelled (me, you, us, the experts, etc...) at other skills by lesser specimens by watching highlight films. "Look at that anticipation", "That's next level awareness".

Those are things that can be taught. You cannot teach size, weight, strength, speed, arm strength, can throw from any angle and athleticism. When you see it, and have confidence in roughing out the edges, and have the need, you race to the podium and draft it.


If you don't have a QB in this league, you're going nowhere. We don't have one. Looking down the barrel of past misfortune... Baker Mayfield; DeShone Kizer; Cody Kessler; Johnny Manziel; Brandon Weeden, the only one that fits my mold is Kizer. If we draft Dart and he's another Kizer, it won't matter if we drafted him in the first or the fifth. What will matter is the time invested and the setbacks that creates as a franchise.

If you like Dart, walk up to the podium and draft him. He has all the tangibles -- size, weight, strength, speed, arm strength, can throw from any angle and athleticism. Are they on the level of Josh Allen? Nope. Do they dwarf those (no pun intended) by a Baker Mayfield? Yep. All day and twice on Sunday.

There are certainly arguments to be made as you have done. Pre draft all you can go by are the odds and history to guide you. As you mentioned, there are no guarantees and it's always a crap shoot when selecting a QB. What can't be argued is that strong QB draft classes increase the odds of success. As you mentioned even at that it's no sure thing. But as was shown your odds are better. When taking a gamble the odds always matter.

I think I can argue that a little bit. I'll admit though, that I swim against the stream on this one:

Jaxson Dart is Jaxson Dart. The talent around him in the draft (or lack thereof) does nothing to determine whether he'll be a success in the NFL.

While a "good QB draft" guarantees more talent comes into the league, it does nothing to guarantee that for any individual team making a pick. In other words, there can be 10 QBs deemed by the experts to be 1st round talent, that doesn't mean you'll pick the right one. There can even be two deemed as generational talent, doesn't matter, Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf were called "1a and 1b". Unless you're picking more than one of them high, the notion that your chances are better is wrong imo.


Here's the sticking point and here's why I don't always understand the mentality of Browns fans... When you invest additional assets to "go get that guy", that's the only time you smash my argument. That can be detrimental to the franchise as a whole. That creates weaknesses to other parts of the roster. We've been the geniuses that try to break that mold, we trade away from talent to move down in the draft and pick someone like Manziel (and then talk about the "value" given the draft slot 🤣).

The only thing a good draft class does is eliminate the need to mortgage the future, to procure more assets than you already have, in order to draft a QB. All other rules and disclaimers still apply.

We don't have that problem. Our draft pick is already bought and paid for, we earned it with another year of SUCK.

When you think about it, we've basically (by comparison) burnt a first round pick (and other assets) three years in a row, and paid the QB ten times more than rookies would have earned during that span. Yet we all sit here knowing -- if we get the QB room right this year, we've got better than a puncher's chance to make some noise next January.


Now that I've talked in circles, I hope I've made a lick of sense. 🤣

I will agree with you that you are swimming against the stream on this one and talked in circles if that's any consolation.

If trying to go against the grain, fight against the odds and take more than the average risk to achieve your goal which may set the Browns back even further, for longer is the goal, this would be the perfect draft to try and accomplish that by spending a #2 pick in such a way.

If only someone would have told Dallas Micah Parson was too light in the pants to play defensive end in a 4-3, Dallas could have made a better pick.

j/c:

Milroe has the highest ceiling of all the QBs in this draft. I do not see the Browns considering him at #2. I also do not see him getting past the Steelers with their 1st round pick.

Dallas is smart enough to use MP at what he exiles...I don't think we do that very well. That said, MP is their MG...he does what he wants and what he is good at. We aren't going to focus our defense on anyone other than Garrett. I also stated this :

...He will likely be a stud...

It's not like I'm saying he can't/won't work out in the NFL...I'm just saying that he doesn't "fit" what we've tried at RDE for some time now. Clowney, Z Smith, Wright, etc. Edge setting RDEs

Berry was handcuffed? It was HIS decision-making that created the handcuffs in the first place.

Pit, You are arguing a point that I am not trying to make. Taking a QB at #2 who is seen as a top 10-12 player isn't "reaching". I see Dart as a top 10-12 player...and that at a premium position. You don't see Dart as being 1st Rd worthy. A difference of opinion/evaluation.

I'd much rather discuss why he is...or isn't...1st Rd worthy over trying to make the argument that the past repeats itself...everyone already knows what happens when you reach for any player. Lord knows this FO has been the poster child for that effort(s) in futility. The bottom line is that you think Dart is a reach at #2...I do not.

BTW...Of all the QBs you listed (trying to make a point that I'm not arguing) there is exactly ONE that I would have drafted in Rd #1.

I think the difference is I don't see him being worthy of the #2 pick. I also don't see him as a top 10-12 pick. I have repeatedly stated I have no problem trading back up into the first round to get him. The Browns are desperate for a QB. The only difference between us is what the actual value of Dart is and how far should the Browns desperation make them reach.

I learn a lot from history. Others give it less gravity than I do. That's why as we can see teams keep making the same mistakes.

j/c:

I've never seen a poster say this before!

Trolls be trolling.

Kenny Pickett SZN!!!