DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Stefanski and Berry

This is why I frequently preface my arguments "without the benefit of hindsight".

When the Watson sweepstakes were going down, he was "a top 5 QB" and Baker was "a good QB that wasn't going to get us over the hump". I don't enjoy being this sorta de facto AB/KS defender on here, but something that grinds my gears more is this revisionist history nonsense.


The one part of Watson that I am still going to question is they style of QB Watson is and how different it is from what KS has been able to work with. I'm surprised that, in all their due diligence, they didn't pick up how his weaknesses could be so incompatible with our O.

Exactly. And that is part of the problem I have with this FO & HC. It's not just punting on Baker or refusing to man-up and sit him after the injury...it's not just pulling down their pants for DeShone and giving him nearly $1/4 billion...it's not just going into last year with DTR as QB2 and no QB3...it's not just NOT signing Flacco so as to appease DeShone. (Flacco = Winston...neither were here to eever be the full-time starter.)

With that ^ track record at the most important part of their jobs, how can anyone have confidence that they will get it right THIS time?

What is it about the Browns that they do well? Worth keeping and repeating? The only answer I can find is spending Jimmy's money.

I really can't speak for anyone else's opinion of Watson when this was going down.. But for me, it was never about him as a player.. The guy showed great skills with Houston. Frankly that was unquestioned.

For me it was always all about character. I didn't believe then and I still don't believe that rewarding someone like that is the right answer. That move had disaster written all over it from the jump!

You know, it's funny, but that "hindsight" monster is the sports fan's best companion... and worst enemy. Everything from staring down the reasons of an inept franchise, to the endless questioning of play calling that has me rolling my eyes from week-to-week. When the HB sweep at the goal line works -- he's a genius, when it doesn't, there seemingly aren't enough adjectives.

I try my best, when people are screaming "what were they thinking?!"... to try and figure out... what they were actually thinking. In this case I think they thought Watson's skill level was so extreme that they could take him out of that kind of chaotic type of offense and he would actually improve.


I'm not using hindsight when I say I've always thought he was overrated. Plenty of arguments on here to back that up before we were even shopping. But once he was signed, and I got over the shock, I read an article that gave me very high hopes. It was an Athletic article, a long-form piece about his hard work and dedication centered around him going straight back out to the field after a game to practice a throw he missed, over and over and over again, until it was perfect.

That's the Watson we didn't get, or at least it seems we didn't. It seems to be the exact opposite. He couldn't look any more disinterested in football even in the heat of an epic battle. It would be the same walk to the sidelines after the fourth INT as it would after the fourth TD.

I'm not saying body language is a be-all-tell-all. If it were, we would have fired Stefanski three years ago, it just seems a little less and different than 'even-keel'.


Watson was, and maybe still is, broken, psychologically. Maybe when the storm was raging in his mind -- football was the refuge. The thing he knew he could get right as long as he worked hard enough. Maybe once the storm was over, and he could breath a quarter-billion-dollar sigh of relief -- football didn't matter anymore. It sure seems that way to me.

We never got this guy:

Let’s say your (unmarried) daughter comes home with a new boyfriend.

He’s rich, handsome and is an executive at Coca Cola.

Outside your garage you see a super car worth a fortune. He has lots of bling bling around his neck and your daughter has a brand new diamond ring on her finger. Everything looks great until you do a little Google search and find that there’s trustworthy stories about him harassing and grooming young women. You can also see that he was fired from his last job at Pepsi because of a serious conflict with his bosses.

Your response is probably fast and definite. You don’t want this man in your house and definitely not together with your daughter.

The quarterback we’re discussing is this man!
If you at the time didn’t saw or understood this then it means that you also where been blinded by all the bling bling. (his stats, all the YT clips)

Just so there is no misunderstanding. This is an example and has nothing to do with you.
I’m 100% sure you would do the right things when it comes to your family.

I said the same thing at the time and it was at that time I created the sig. on my profile today. Many were in denial about it. Many blamed the women for it and proclaimed watson as the victim. All for the sake of winning just like this FO and owner did. Karma said hold my beer.

Yeah, but we've been talking about actual football for too many posts in a row. Gotta get back to what matters most.

And something many people thought at the time didn't matter at all. watson plays for the Browns. The Browns ignored the moral aspect and signed him to a crazy contract and gave away a huge amount of draft assets. The results of that have negatively impacted the Browns in a very substantial way and at this point in time continue to do so. #notfootball

Thanks for the recap.

You're welcome.

you really love to live in a vacuum don't you.. I'm glad I'm living in your head, at the time, Watson was a top 5 qb.. KS ruined him. not much more to it than that

KS ruined Watson??

You’re still blinded by the bling blings and that’s why you will never understand.

For me it’s crucial and I and many others will never support those who made this decision.

Supporting the Browns. Absolutely.
Supporting the cowards. Never.

bro i have some issues with KS, but Watson ruined himself.

The evidence points to the contrary.. Great in college, great in NFL with a horrible team, comes here and forgets how to play all of sudden, not buying it. But if I'm wrong then the people who made the move were egregiously wrong in their assessment, compounding the legal troubles, which IMO, I would have assumed they knew where those stood before doing anything, set this team back yet still have their jobs. Makes no sense, can't have it both ways

This is a prime example of what desperation looks like.

He was clearly talking about the football reasons. Talking football doesn't mean he's blind to Watson's issues off the field, no matter how much you want to virtue signal it into being true.

I believe Berry, Stefanski, and Haslam see the team more like this right now.

They changed the Offensive Coordinator to try to fit Watson and that did not work. Actually, they made the Offensive line worse because they took an Offensive line that was strong at the zone block scheme and tried to change who they are in the process. I believe they feel that a few changes and returning to the zone blocking scheme they can get this running game back on track. Also, they have to wonder what their season record would be if Jamies Winston had started at QB all 16 games. I would assume 7 to 8 wins. They certainly would have beaten the Giants and Raiders. It would not be out of the question to think he could have won 2 to 3 more games. He beat 2 playoff teams at home Steelers and Ravens. They grew tired of Winston's interceptions and new he was not the long-term answer. What if they had a QB that could throw for similar yardage with less INT's. Not that hard to fathom really. This could have been a 10-win team. That would have been more in line with preseason thinking. Now they have the number 2 overall pick and a bunch more picks. Fill some gaps and with the last place schedule next year be more of who they feel this team really is. That is why they are not going to blow this thing up. If Winston can throw for 500 yards on the road vs a playoff team (Broncos) and if a year ago Joe Flacco could have success in this offense there is no reason, they cannot find a QB that can have that kind of success next season.

I liked the fact that both Berry and Stefanski owned the 3-14 record, and I expect to see a much-improved team on the field next season. Playoff good we will see. but much improved.  

I'm just surprised Depo's not being blamed for ruining him. I need to get with the times.

ikr

I had the same reaction when I read this from him:



Sometimes, you just gotta shake your head, and move on.
It's the only healthy thing to do.

j/c

On Berry and Stefanski - I guess the opinion on whether they should stay or go (as a fan) depends on whether you think we have seen who they are and what their competence is. Or whether mitigating circumstances have prevented them from succeeeding to theit full potential - and assuming you think there are mitigating circumstances, you believe they have potential to be a 'good or better' as a GM or HC. I say at least good because it would seem pointless accepting what we've seen and believe thier ceiling is 'average' or less than average.

I can understand how KS can be looked at in two lights - 2 playoff appearences in the good years. Coaching against adversity through covid and through a miriad of QB's when we did well with Flaco off the sofa. Getting the most out of Jacoby, Baker for a season, Flaco. He's steady, professional, speaks inteligently and articulately.

For Berry, he's made solid trades. His draft picks are probably above average when taken overall. He manages the cap well (brilliantly according to some). Some people want to give him a complete pass on the Watson trade because Haslam must have signed off on this - may even have been the driver.

Those two scernarios are well within the bounds of possibility. Assuming they stay I hope that this is the reality.

Personally I think we've seen who they are. To me KS is uninspiring and conservative, comes out flat in some of the important games, as an OC gets cute in too many situations, gets pass happy, has done well when expectations are low but never done well when the expectations were raised. Has failed to be accountable despite multiple years talking about accountability. . . . With Berry I look at the roster and believe the depth and talent to be less than NFL average and Berry has been in charge for enough years to own what the roster is - with or without the DW trade. We're actively rebuilding - I don't trust him with that process.

Whatever the situation ... as Browns fans all we can do is hope for the best while probably expecting the worst. Of course it's the hope that kills us, but what's the alternative?

Well Bless your heart.

5 false claims in one line. That's impressive.

Agreed Bone. 100% true and could not have been stated more succinctly.

I'd take living in a vacuum vs whatever causes someone to think this.

Quoted the whole thing because it was well put (IMO). I like KS and AB but I definitely understand peoples' issues with both.

I want to keep both, but I have to acknowledge that other folks have been fired for FAR less. I think the fact that neither are gone after this Watson debacle (and they seem to be acknowledging the situation for what it is) can be evidence that the one person that can't be fired (owner) had a big hand in kicking this whole ish-show off. I can't think of any other legit reason for retaining your GM after writing ourselves into the history books like we did.

As for KS, I like that he's a young coach and I like his system. I've seen enough to know that it can work when the right pieces are in place. I think his playcalling is VERY feast-or-famine, and so I really hope that our next OC is someone that can run with the KS offense and can be trusted with playcalling responsibilities. We've now had 2 OC's that, when given the chance at playcalling, compare favorably with Stefanski's body of work.


I also hope that Ventrone and (to a lesser degree) Schwartz aren't feeling comfortable after this season. Our STs was straight bad this year, and the defense regressed too much for a unit that was supposed to be strong enough to get us a few wins. As pathetic as the offense was, the defense looked, at times, like they were just going through the motions. When you have a team like the Steelers just down the road, it's an especially bad look.

Every owner in the NFL is "trying to win" because it makes one of their huge investments, an NFL franchise, far more valuable if they own a winning team. Sadly often times the word failure comes into play. That's what they call it when an NFL franchise tries to win but can't. I mean I get it. You want to give Haslam credit for "trying". But when failure is the outcome, he tried in vain and the effort was not only pointless but a negative.

Good stuff. I think you both cut through the extremes and rhetoric to give a pretty accurate representation of how most fans feel. Although I'm probably a little higher on Stefanski's play calling, I think mgh nailed my feelings on his demeanor and ability to inspire confidence on a week-to-week basis. That said, I'm much higher on our ability to compete against good teams as any time since '99.

I've said since day one that both were insulated from the Watson decision. If anyone pulled the other two, kicking and screaming, it would have to be Haslam. Not to say it worked that way, it was probably consensus, but that consensus had a ring leader and his name was Jimmy.

As Watson circles the drain, the other issues, warts and recurring themes won't favor retention for either if they aren't cleared up. This draft, this FA, and the response next season, knowing Watson was never the answer, will speak volumes about the future of the team and it's stewards.

I like this post!

In the real business world you have two types of CEO's. Entrepreneurs and managing directors.

Steve Jobs was an entrepreneur in its true meaning. iMac, iPhone and iPad have all changed the world.
Tim Cook is an excellent CEO but in the end he's basically a managing director. He makes sure Apple generates profit and protects the shares and the brands value.

They both mastered their professions perfectly but without each other Apple wouldn't be the company they are today. One invented the future, the other made it hugely profitable.

The reason I use this analogy is because the question for the Browns is if they need a Steve Jobs or a Tim Cook?

Results wise we’re a bottom five team in the NFL atm.
If the KCC is a new iPhone then we at best is a used Nokia.

To compete with the very best we either need to invent something new or for a couple of seasons pick better players than our competitors in the draft and the FA.

After five seasons I don't see a Steve Jobs in Stefanski. Maybe a middle manager version of Cook but not an elite prospect. Is that good enough to catch up with the very best teams?

Andrew Berry is more of a Steve Jobs than Tim Cook. He takes chances. He's creative. In some situations for better or worse he goes his own way . His results are a mixture of the worst and but also some good results, but at least he tries.

If I continue with the analogy I rather start a project with a Steve Jobs than a Tim Cook.
For that reason Berry has a bigger upside than Stefanski.

Andrew Berry has ideas. He's willing to go all in. These traits can take him a long way even if I personally have my doubts.

Kevin Stefanski will probably end up as a decent HC but without a GM who can give him a roster with elite players because his coaching skills aren’t good enough against the very best defensive coordinators.

From my perspective the Cleveland Browns have long term more use of an Andrew Berry type of GM than a Stefanski type of HC if they truly want to compete with the very best.

^ Good post. I like the analogies.

Yeah, good call on the Watson scenario. I think the way everything played out has turned your speculation more into confirmation.

I think the greater issue in my mind, is that Haslam has been the only consistent thing about this team since 2012. From the Three Stooges, to the Sashi/Hue debacle, to the current Watson disaster, he has been at the helm. I do understand that he does want to win, and he has put his capital toward that, but it's his ongoing penchant for flipping up constantly that has me worried about the overall direction of the franchise. He also doesn't seem too keen on the idea of just stepping back and letting the people he hired do what they're supposed to do.

Just a few personal takes on the topic. Berry has strengths we need in the FO. He has also demonstrated some blind spots IMO on judging talent, roster need, vetting, and drafting. Stefanski is back to the same tired nonsense of playcalling again when we have seen some lousy records in low-scoring games. Sometimes he seems cornered repeatedly into PR and spin over HC duties. The lousy product on the field got worse, repeated shortcomings week after week like penalties and picks, and he really didn't coach them up much or coach out failures. This is one main concern about this post and Ski. Not sure we were tough enough from TC onward, reflecting on Mangini's plans. But looking at HC, his records are limping along, and I wonder about how much leash he has left and I include Berry. For a number of seasons for a variety of reasons, coaches around Stefanski have been removed, crashing and burning like a public appeasement leaving him to persist in the same practices and shortfalls season falling season. I think he has been unscathed when he should have been scorched for Browns' underachieving. Great he was COY! Those were not nearly enough to make tangible differences in wins. We have heard him take blame, say we all have to do better, play better, coach better, and then did less. We need less teflon and happy talk. This "moving on" from those you scapegoat should leave you someplace different. We have managed brilliantly only to dig a deeper hole. Any real fix starts with these two.

Which is why I watch this team with bated breath ever year/offseason.

Opinion: for a few years, Flyin' J left things alone... until this big, juicy "feast or famine" proposition dropped into his lap. Then, he pulled a Jerry Jones (like he has so many times before), and made his kneejerk decision. "Get this guy."
Owners get what owners want. Now, the professionals are forced to 'make it work.' In other words: re-tool for a QB that was never the prototype for the system we'd built.

We had a good thing going with Callahan/zone blocking scheme/run featured/play-action setup. IT'S THE FREAKKIN' AFCN, FER GAWD'S SAKE!

As long as JHazmat is the owner, I'll never rest easy from one season to the next.


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