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i was just thinking about something as i watched yesterday's game...Braylon was making phenomenal catches over his shoulder/jumping/diving/spinning...and this ? hit me...
are Braylon's stats a product of DA?...
read that carefully, b/c i'm not suggesting Braylon is not supremely talented, nor am i suggesting DA is some great QB...what i'm asking is if Braylon's STATS have benefitted by DA's style of QBing...let's think about these 2 guys...
Braylon's scouting report is as a big-play receiver...loves going up to get jump balls...makes extraordinary catches but loses focus on the easy ones...meanwhile, DA is the deep-throwing QB...he's not afraid to throw into double, or even triple coverage...he trusts his guys to go up and get it...and he has trouble getting off the primary receiver...
do those seem like the perfect storm of sorts?...they do to me...i think K2 and JoeJ will catch the ball no matter who delivers it...that's their game...but Braylon...if he doesn't have to make major adjustments on the ball, does he have the same kind of success that he has this year?...i wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find out the answer is no, if and when we go to Quinn...i don't see the other guys' #'s suffering at all...but i could see his...
Browns fans are born with it...
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DA and Braylon have such a good rapport. I dunno how I feel about breaking that up down the road.
I think that you very well could be 100% spot on. I didnt think of it that way, but you could be very right.
very insightful
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Quote:
and he has trouble getting off the primary receiver...
I don't know how anyone can say that...
Winslow, 71 receptions
Edwards, 69
JJ, 45
Lewis, 24
Everyone else, 53
His top three receivers have the bulk of thise receptions and I bet the same could be said for every team in the league that has a potent passing offense.
As for Braylons outstanding year thus far, I think it has more to do with him getting his head on straight and working harder than he ever has before.
I'd say that it also has more to do with the coaches and the Vet players preaching to him than anything else... Also, he's 100% healthy, something he wasn't last year and he's more experienced.. and yes, the QB has more time to find him now because of the line..
That's my take,, for what it's worth.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Think what he is referring to when he mentions "primary receiver" is the primary receiver for a given play... for example, a deep out to Braylon is called in the huddle, DA will lock in on just Braylon 90% of the time when his other 2/3 options are open and still throw it to his primary receiver for that given play...
If I am wrong DNA, I apologize in advance
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true true about Braylon getting his head on straight. That definitely is a big thing.
but I really think that there is something to be said about Braylon and DA having very very good chemistry
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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All Pro
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I wonder if getting rid of Robiskie has helped any. He didnt seem to preach accountability...whereas Chandler did during TC. Just a thought...maybe someone can help me out 
"I don't remember any of my catches. I remember the drops." - Kellen Winslow II
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Quote:
I wonder if getting rid of Robiskie has helped any. He didnt seem to preach accountability...whereas Chandler did during TC. Just a thought...maybe someone can help me out
Oh boy... You are about to get flamed by the 2 single robo pimps on the board... Hell in the state of Ohio... 
In all seriousness though, I am sure that it is a large contributing factor... New offense that exploits mis-matches, Better O-Line, improved play from the QB position and an actual running game... Add in another year of maturation along with better WR coaching and Viola...
So glad Robo is gone by the way!! LONG LONG OVerdue!!!
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I didnt know there were any Robo humpers on the board  what were they thinking?
"I don't remember any of my catches. I remember the drops." - Kellen Winslow II
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Yep... To preserve the thread from getting off topic, I will refrain from
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So let me get thsi straight .. your saying that part of the reason that Brey is having as much success as he is because he has to make alot of tough catches and that if he had easier balls to catch he wouldn't be having as much success ..
I understand your premise here .. but I want U to go re-read what I just wrote a couple times and let it sink in and then let me know if U still think its even remotely possible .. ,...
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Quote:
are Braylon's stats a product of DA?...
Of course...you think that QB who's now in Seattle could deliver the ball in those tight spaces/down the field as well as Anderson has?
But on the flip side, what Diam's saying is correct too...
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I honestly believe Braylon's great season came at the dismisal of Charlie Frye. Braylon is made for catching bullets and deep balls downfield which were some of Charlie's weaknesses.
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I think that the 2 have a similar preference as far as style of play goes .... and have obviously established a great rapport. I think that each has helped the other at one time or another.
And further ... *ahem* ..... let me take this moment to say that I was wr ..... wr ...... um ..... might have made a premature negative evaluation regarding Edwards' long term productivity and abilities.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The biggest change I noticed with Edwards is as a person.
I'm pretty sure I've watched every single interview/press conference with him this year. He has matured as a young man.
In a lot of ways, he is the face of this franchise.
His big play ability is unquestioned. He's had enough this year than most guys have in a career.
However, I don't think he will ever be elite because his hands aren't good enough. Top 10...for sure...in the right situation. Elite...Top 3 or 5 ... I don't think that's in the cards for him.
But I'll take Top 10 any day. I'm glad he is a Brown. He has adopted the city and seems to really have embraced being a Brown. Can't argue with that.
-----------------
Back to the premise of this thread...I don't think it is as far-fetched as Diam would have everyone believe.
However, I think it has less to do with DA forcing Edwards to make spectacular catches and more to do with DA being a bit of a gunslinger. If Quinn doesn't have any gunslinger in him...I think Edwards stats will suffer.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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DAMAN... 44 explained what i was trying to say...DA's progression seems to go A: primary target; B: dump-off...not much in the way of 2nd or 3rd reads downfield... and yes, it's obvious that much of Edwards' success has to do with his newfound maturity/approach to the game... 1508... well, i doubt getting rid of Robiskie HURT any of our receivers... DIAM... i totally get how ridiculous it sounds...then again, so do most of my thoughts when read back to me...L...but it was an interesting topic, i thought, considering some of the things found on this board...and as dumb as it may sound, do you not think Braylon has benefitted by getting thrown to when any QB thinking straight would be throwing the ball elsewhere?...i don't necessarily think that it makes up for the yards/scoring chances left on the field by DA's uncatchable passes... one thing i do believe...i will be interested to see the # of targets Braylon gets with Quinn under center, as well as the # of times he drops catchable balls...he'll probably prove this idea silly, and i'm all for it... YTOWN... well, i agree Bray has helped DA, but that's hardly a debatable topic among fans that see Braylon work for those catches... and as for admitting you were premature on his abilities, perhaps you should apply that to DA... 
Browns fans are born with it...
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j/c
Edwards is having a good year. No doubt about that.
Just imagine what kind of year he'd be having if he didn't drop 1-4 balls per game. I'm talking the 1 to 4 balls per game that hit him in the hands, in stride, with no one around him. Just imagine what kind of year he'd be having.
He's done great this year, don't get me wrong. But it could've been a record year for him, and the Browns, if he'd catch the easy ones as well.
Braylon has some work to do to be considered a top notch receiver. Hopefully he'll get there. And no, I'm not knocking what he has done - just stating the obvious - if he could catch the balls my 7 yr. old daughter catches he'd be on fire this year.
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Oh no you didn't.
We're winning man. Can't you just enjoy it without ripping into one of our players?
For cryin' out loud...
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Here's a question that crossed my mind the other day...I was going to make a thread about it and then decided to wait until there was an existing one it could fit into...
I don't think there's quantifiable numbers for this (although I wouldn't be surprised to know there is)...but is Braylon the most challenged player in the NFL this year? How many times has a challenge been issued on one of his spectacular sideline tightropes? How many has he won/lost?
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Quote:
Oh no you didn't.
We're winning man. Can't you just enjoy it without ripping into one of our players?
For cryin' out loud...
What in the hell are you talking about??????????????
Just try, for a second, to imagine BE's year if he made the simple catches. Wouldn't he be having one of the best years ever for a receiver??????????? YES.
And me ripping a player?
Gimme a break. Go read any thread about Anderson. You wanna see ripping a player?
Read any thread about Dawson - up until this week. That's ripping a player.
Me? I'm just stating the damn obvious. If Braylon could catch the damn easy ones to go with his circus catches he'd be at the top of the NFL. If you can't see that, sorry for you.
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I actually think the opposite. DA is having a good season because of our current receiving corp. Winslow has had some problems hanging on to some passes as of late, but in general our corp is playing very good football. If DA had a bit more accuracy we'd have an offense that would be extremely tough to handle.
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Quote:
What in the hell are you talking about??????????????
Just try, for a second, to imagine BE's year if he made the simple catches. Wouldn't he be having one of the best years ever for a receiver??????????? YES.
And me ripping a player?
Gimme a break. Go read any thread about Anderson. You wanna see ripping a player?
Read any thread about Dawson - up until this week. That's ripping a player.
Me? I'm just stating the damn obvious. If Braylon could catch the damn easy ones to go with his circus catches he'd be at the top of the NFL. If you can't see that, sorry for you.
Amazingly enough...he IS at the top of the NFL....
[pulls a mensa]
Just yardage...
1. Randy Moss, NE 1343
2. Terrell Owens, DAL 1307
3. Reggie Wayne, IND 1280
4. Chad Johnson, CIN 1265
5. Braylon Edwards, CLE 1170
Receptions, Yardage, YPC, YPG, LNG, TD, FUM, LOST
1 Randy Moss WR, NWE 87 1343 15.4 95.9 63 19 0 0
2 Terrell Owens WR, DAL 76 1307 17.2 93.4 52 14 0 0
3 B. Edwards WR, CLE 69 1170 17.0 83.6 78 13 3 2
If anything he needs to hold on to the ball AFTER he makes the catch...3 fumbles 
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Quote:
Quote:
What in the hell are you talking about??????????????
Just try, for a second, to imagine BE's year if he made the simple catches. Wouldn't he be having one of the best years ever for a receiver??????????? YES.
And me ripping a player?
Gimme a break. Go read any thread about Anderson. You wanna see ripping a player?
Read any thread about Dawson - up until this week. That's ripping a player.
Me? I'm just stating the damn obvious. If Braylon could catch the damn easy ones to go with his circus catches he'd be at the top of the NFL. If you can't see that, sorry for you.
Amazingly enough...he IS at the top of the NFL....
[pulls a mensa]
Just yardage...
1. Randy Moss, NE 1343
2. Terrell Owens, DAL 1307
3. Reggie Wayne, IND 1280
4. Chad Johnson, CIN 1265
5. Braylon Edwards, CLE 1170
Receptions, Yardage, YPC, YPG, LNG, TD, FUM, LOST
1 Randy Moss WR, NWE 87 1343 15.4 95.9 63 19 0 0
2 Terrell Owens WR, DAL 76 1307 17.2 93.4 52 14 0 0
3 B. Edwards WR, CLE 69 1170 17.0 83.6 78 13 3 2
If anything he needs to hold on to the ball AFTER he makes the catch...3 fumbles
Not to argue, but:
If he makes the easy catches, he would be at the top. You know, #1, instead of #5.
He's having a great year, don't get me wrong. But he's dropping passes that are so easy. Why? I don't know. Maybe he's worried about running after the catch. Maybe he's worried about getting hit. I don't know why he drops the easy ones, but he does.
I hate to see BE cutting across the middle wide open and seeing DA throw to him. Why? Cause BE will drop it.
I love seeing DA throw to BE when he's double covered and not open. Why? cause he'll catch it.
Take the 2 to 3 wide open drops BE has each game. Let's say 2.5 per game. 14 games is 35 more catches. Let's just say he get's 10 yds. per reception. That's 350 more yards.
Lets now look at your stats. BE has 69 catches. Add in the 35 "no reason to drop" catches, and BOOOOOOOM, he's at the top of the NFL heap.
Let's go with the yardage. 35 more recept. at 10 yds per = 350 additional yards added onto his 1170. That = 1520 yds. BOOOOOOOM!!!! He leads the league in both categories.
See what I'm saying? BE is having a great year. If he could catch the "so damn easy" passes, he'd be the flat out best rec. in the league.
Rishuz thinks I'm knocking BE. I'm not. Just saying "if he could catch the damn easy ones" he'd be tops in the nfl.
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arch: I'm with you. He does have 9 drops (leading the league). I'd say 2 of those 9 were receptions that were "difficult" balls to hold onto. Like the one where he's upside down about to land on his head type balls.  Regardless, I'm loving this football season. I like our team right now (minus a few people on the D, I think we have a pretty solid football team in the works here). It's a good time to be a Browns fan! I may have pneumonia from Sunday, but who cares! 
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I understand the premise and while it may seem sound, I believe Braylon is having a monster season because he's busted his tail. QB play is a part of the equation but thinking Edwards won't be able to put up the same numbers with Quinn is a bit silly IMO.
Braylon is a stud. I said it from day one. Are there 5 WR's you'd even consider trading him for at this point? I can't even think of 3. Reggie Wayne is an obvious choice for me but aside from him, I'd be hard pressed to trade BE for anyone else in the NFL right now. He's 5th in receiving yards, 3rd in TD's, 3rd in YPC, 4th in 20+ yard receptions and has a 1st down percentage of 74% (slightly better then Wayne's 73.2% and just behind Moss 74.7%). Kind of eye opening really.
Is he as sure handed as some of the other guys? Nah, he's not but he can break the explosive play or make the acrobatic catch at any point. Has he caused me to pull some hair out? Of course but at 24, given his unbelievable physical attributes, the sky is the limit for him. If he could cut his drops in half, which I think is a realistic expectation, he could be a potential all-timer.
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NAS...
i will argue with none of what you say...but none of it really addresses him hypothetically benefitting from DA's shortcomings...
Browns fans are born with it...
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Quote:
Think what he is referring to when he mentions "primary receiver" is the primary receiver for a given play...
Maybe that's what he's saying,, maybe it isn't, but the stats don't bare that out either..
DA has spread it around quite a bit.. I don't think that's possible if he is locking onto Priimary receivers...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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but I really think that there is something to be said about Braylon and DA having very very good chemistry
Very hard to disagree with that. It's clear those two guys have a chemistry.. but I also think DA and KW2 have a pretty neat chemistry think going on as well...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Just imagine what kind of year he'd be having if he didn't drop 1-4 balls per game. I'm talking the 1 to 4 balls per game that hit him in the hands, in stride, with no one around him. Just imagine what kind of year he'd be having.
I have two problems with this statement,,
1. Where did you get the stat that he drops 1-4 balls per game.. that can't be accurate.
If he drops between 1-4 balls per game then he drops 2.5 balls a game,, which means in 14 games he's dropped 35 balls.. I don't think that's correct, but I have no stats to verify it.
You further go on to say that these are the balls that hit him in the hands, in stride, with no one around him.. I doubt that there has been a confluence of those three criteria more than 3 or 4 times this whole year... yet you think it's happened 35 times.. Completely impossible.
Second thing is this,, and someone else already put the stats up, but he's like the 5th leading receiver in the league.. nothing wrong with that AT ALL.. so I'd say he's being very succcesful.
Drops and all!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I hope that IF DA leaves, we dont suffer in that part of the game. Chemistry means ALOT in any sport.
Brady is good, but will he have as good of chemistry?
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Yeah, my biggest fear is that Brady won't be as good..
Honestly, in my heart, I get the feeling that Quinn will be WAY better than DA.. I really believe that. But who really knows.. which is why in the middle of the season, I wanted to see Quinn play a little.. but at this point, DA doesn't deserve to have even ONE snap taken away from him..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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exactly. What worries me, isnt so much I think about BQ being better than DA anymore. I think its about chemistry now.
I'll be fine with both, but I dont want to see anything like Tomlinson/Rivers if DA leaves. I dont wanna see anything between Brady and Braylon...or Kellen like i saw with Braylon and Charlie.
That puts me on edge alot.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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NAS...
i will argue with none of what you say...but none of it really addresses him hypothetically benefitting from DA's shortcomings...
I think it may have helped his confidence some (i.e. getting to display his ability to make the great catch a little more).......but for every off-target throw he has some how miraculously hauled in, there's been just as many where if DA hit's him in stride he possibly houses it for 6.
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Ahh,, Quinn seems to be a pretty cool guy.. he doesn't appear to be too big headed.. He may have been if he'd come in and won the starters job from the get go,, but being a first rounder and being sent to ride the pine and watch the job he wants being filled more than adaquatly by a 6th rounder can be a humbling experience,, I sense he'll be fine and that Braylon, KW, JJ and Lewis will be fine with him if it comes to that.. If those four guys are good to go with Quinn,, everyone will fall right in line.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Well, if you think that BE is possibly benefitting from DA's shortcomings, I would disagree. I think DA has supreme confidence in BE and K2 and therefore, will make the throw.
If DA had no faith in these players and he was STILL making those throws, I would consider them to be errant passes that he was just throwing up for grabs. But this isn't the case. If DA didn't trust these guys, I truly believe he'd be checking down more.
So yes...BE is benefitting from DA's confidence. Because DA trusts him to go get the rock. And he usually does. It's a mutually beneficial relationship and the results are speaking for themselves.
As far as BE dropping some balls...yes he does. And he knows it more than any of us. But i'll give him a pass because he makes more spectacular no-way-anyone-should-have-caught-that-ball catches than anyone I've seen wearing an orange helmet. And his ability to keep both feet in bounds might be the best in the league right now.
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*In Baker we trust*
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Quote:
Yeah, my biggest fear is that Brady won't be as good..
Honestly, in my heart, I get the feeling that Quinn will be WAY better than DA.. I really believe that. But who really knows.. which is why in the middle of the season, I wanted to see Quinn play a little.. but at this point, DA doesn't deserve to have even ONE snap taken away from him..
Yeah, Pittsburgh kind of screwed that one up for us as of today as well.
Not that I DON'T want to win the divsion (I REALLY do) but it would have benefitted us mightily if we could have had the Cinci game to clinch a playoff spot and a half of football to designate to Quinn against San Francisco.
Getting to see Brady play in a cold, regular season game, late in the year could have been a big plus for the coaching staff and FO. While you can evaluate him all you want in practice, it's on the field during a game when it counts.
I'm not trying to say getting Quinn PT is more important than any team goal, it just would have been nice for us to be in a position to play him a little late in the season, just to let him get his feet wet and also get a glimpse of him against another teams starting defense.
With all that said.....Go Rams!
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Well, it could still happen.. I have my doubts that it will, but it could.
What's to say that we don't pummel Cinci and get a good lead on SF,,, then let quinn have the last half of the 49er's game.
Again, it could happen, but I have my doubts that even if it played out exacly like th at, that they would give quinn the ball..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 |
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Oh no you didn't.
We're winning man. Can't you just enjoy it without ripping into one of our players?
For cryin' out loud...
What in the hell are you talking about??????????????
Just try, for a second, to imagine BE's year if he made the simple catches. Wouldn't he be having one of the best years ever for a receiver??????????? YES.
And me ripping a player?
Gimme a break. Go read any thread about Anderson. You wanna see ripping a player?
Read any thread about Dawson - up until this week. That's ripping a player.
Me? I'm just stating the damn obvious. If Braylon could catch the damn easy ones to go with his circus catches he'd be at the top of the NFL. If you can't see that, sorry for you.
Arch, easy bro...I was completely joking and messing with you.
Thought you knew that. I agree with what you said.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,223
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,223 |
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are Braylon's stats a product of DA?...
Are Randy Moss' stats a product of Tom Brady?
He sure didn't put up those numbers last season in Jokeland.
It's a combination. You can have a great receiver with some backup on a lousy team throwing you the ball, and you won't have a great season. An great receiver needs a capable QB to put up great numbers. When you have an All-Pro playing on a Superbowl caliber team, you have phenomenal numbers.
Yes, DA helps to make Braylon look good, but Braylon still has to run the routes, jump up and make the catches. It's the combo of both of them that has made Braylon have those types of numbers.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
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Just imagine what kind of year he'd be having if he didn't drop 1-4 balls per game. I'm talking the 1 to 4 balls per game that hit him in the hands, in stride, with no one around him. Just imagine what kind of year he'd be having.
I have two problems with this statement,,
1. Where did you get the stat that he drops 1-4 balls per game.. that can't be accurate.
If he drops between 1-4 balls per game then he drops 2.5 balls a game,, which means in 14 games he's dropped 35 balls.. I don't think that's correct, but I have no stats to verify it.
You further go on to say that these are the balls that hit him in the hands, in stride, with no one around him.. I doubt that there has been a confluence of those three criteria more than 3 or 4 times this whole year... yet you think it's happened 35 times.. Completely impossible.
Second thing is this,, and someone else already put the stats up, but he's like the 5th leading receiver in the league.. nothing wrong with that AT ALL.. so I'd say he's being very succcesful.
Drops and all!
Don't knock yourself out looking for those stats. 
If you notice, in my post I said "let's say he drops......" not "he has been proven to drop...."
I stated that simply on my perception of watching the games. No more, no less. And you would be correct that not every drop has been when he's been wide open AND the ball hits him in stride AND hits him in the hands.
Now, for the love of God, can anyone understand what I'm saying? Let's not get caught up in the details, okay?
Here it is in the simplest way I can put it: Braylon is having a great year that could be much better if he caught the easy ones as well as the tough ones.
I'm not taking anything away from him - he's had a fantastic year so far. He's exciting. He's playing like a real TEAMMATE. He's blocking downfield on runs AND for other rec's.
IF he caught the easy ones, he'd be the guy others get compared to, in my opinion.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,391
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,391 |
oh yeah. and he made the pro-bowl 
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*In Baker we trust*
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