If it isn't being taught in public schools this would not even be an issue. And it isn't. So you expect someone to address questions about something you have made false claims about? That's pretty rich.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Critical race theory (CRT) is a cross-disciplinary examination – by social and civil-rights scholars and activists – of how laws, social and political movements, and media shape, and are shaped by, social conceptions of race and ethnicity. Goals include challenging all mainstream and "alternative" views of racism and racial justice
I suppose the history of Racial relations would be taught.
In history class I suppose
K-12.
Now name a public school that is teaching CRT..
Cue…..Captain Deflection
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
Can you even imagine belonging to a race whose history is so littered with violence against them, restrictions and limitations placed upon their rights that the race who perpetrated such actions against them wish to have that history hidden in our schools?
Murica!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Can you even imagine belonging to a race whose history is so littered with violence against them, restrictions and limitations placed upon their rights that the race who perpetrated such actions against them wish to have that history hidden in our schools?
Murica!
Yet the same people that support CRT support planned parenthood. An organization whose founder founded the organization with the sole purpose of eliminating babies of color so they would not overpopulate. The truth is not found in CRT. It is WOKE agenda propaganda and teaching it does not educate but indoctrinates.
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Critical race theory (CRT) is a cross-disciplinary examination – by social and civil-rights scholars and activists – of how laws, social and political movements, and media shape, and are shaped by, social conceptions of race and ethnicity. Goals include challenging all mainstream and "alternative" views of racism and racial justice
I suppose the history of Racial relations would be taught.
California’s K-12 schools, the State Board of Education on Thursday unanimously approved a model curriculum to guide how the histories, struggles and contributions of Asian, Black, Latino and Native Americans — and the racism and marginalization they have experienced in the United States — will be taught to millions of students.
Now, you can't say CRT is not taught in public schools.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
Yet the same people that support CRT support planned parenthood. An organization whose founder founded the organization with the sole purpose of eliminating babies of color so they would not overpopulate.
Yet nobody ever forced people of color to get abortions. It seems if your assertions are correct they failed miserably.
Once again you are buying into what you've allowed yourself to be programmed to believe.
Critical race theory (CRT) is a cross-disciplinary examination – by social and civil-rights scholars and activists – of how laws, social and political movements, and media shape, and are shaped by, social conceptions of race and ethnicity. Goals include challenging all mainstream and "alternative" views of racism and racial justice
I suppose the history of Racial relations would be taught.
California’s K-12 schools, the State Board of Education on Thursday unanimously approved a model curriculum to guide how the histories, struggles and contributions of Asian, Black, Latino and Native Americans — and the racism and marginalization they have experienced in the United States — will be taught to millions of students.
Now, you can't say CRT is not taught in public schools.
Yes I can. Because there is not a single public school teaching CRT. Ethnic studies is not CRT. Nice try.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
Critical race theory (CRT) is a cross-disciplinary examination – by social and civil-rights scholars and activists – of how laws, social and political movements, and media shape, and are shaped by, social conceptions of race and ethnicity. Goals include challenging all mainstream and "alternative" views of racism and racial justice
I suppose the history of Racial relations would be taught.
California’s K-12 schools, the State Board of Education on Thursday unanimously approved a model curriculum to guide how the histories, struggles and contributions of Asian, Black, Latino and Native Americans — and the racism and marginalization they have experienced in the United States — will be taught to millions of students.
Now, you can't say CRT is not taught in public schools.
Yes I can. Because there is not a single public school teaching CRT. Ethnic studies is not CRT. Nice try.
According to your definition... the entire state of California is
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
The ethnic courses in Ca. are all elective not compulsory. Besides It’s a little more than the definition I posted but go ahead and celebrate your gotcha moment…lol. you’ll never get this wrapped around that big head.
CRT is also used in sociology to explain social, political, and legal structures and power distribution as through a "lens" focusing on the concept of race, and experiences of racism. For example, the CRT conceptual framework examines racial bias in laws and legal institutions, such as highly disparate rates of incarceration among racial groups in the United States. A key CRT concept is intersectionality—the way in which different forms of inequality and identity are affected by interconnections of race, class, gender, and disability. Scholars of CRT view race as a social construct with no biological basis. One tenet of CRT is that racism and disparate racial outcomes are the result of complex, changing, and often subtle social and institutional dynamics, rather than explicit and intentional prejudices of individuals. CRT scholars argue that the social and legal construction of race advances the interests of White people. at the expense of people of color, and that the liberal notion of U.S. law as "neutral" plays a significant role in maintaining a racially unjust social order,[14] where formally color-blind laws continue to have racially discriminatory outcomes.
CRT began in the United States in the post–civil rights era, as 1960s landmark civil rights laws were being eroded and schools were being re-segregated. With racial inequalities persisting even after civil rights legislation and color-blind laws were enacted, CRT scholars in the 1970s and 1980s began reworking and expanding critical legal studies (CLS) theories on class, economic structure, and the law to examine the role of U.S. law in perpetuating racism. CRT, a framework of analysis grounded in critical theory, originated in the mid-1970s in the writings of several American legal scholars, including Derrick Bell, Alan Freeman, Kimberlé Crenshaw, Richard Delgado, Cheryl Harris, Charles R. Lawrence III, Mari Matsuda, and Patricia J. Williams. CRT draws from the work of thinkers such as Antonio Gramsci, Sojourner Truth, Frederick Douglass, and W. E. B. Du Bois, as well as the Black Power, Chicano, and radical feminist movements from the 1960s and 1970s.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
Also, its been noted that libtards have tried to give CRT courses alternate names and change the language slightly to sneak it past parents. There was a whole news story about this. The stupid libtards straight up admitted doing this.
All this while students in Dem cities have 0 proficiency in math and reading.
CRT isn’t being taught in public schools. You nor annyone else can name one public school that teaches it. Yet CRT is virtually vilified by all the right wing-nuts as if it is. Why? I really do hope the public schools in the USA would allow religious prayer in class in public schools so I can see the evangelical Christian nationalists go nuts when Muslims in public schools pray two times a day facing East to Mecca.
And really if you couldn’t answer or research those questions yourself then you’re much more dense than I thought.
you can't even describe CRT or answer the 5 questions.
keep preaching, insulting, and deflecting
And you can't describe WOKE in a fashion that makes it sound bad.. Does that make the two of you even?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
GOPers are scared of CRT being taught in schools, although it has never actually been taught in a grade school curriculum. This is like an irrational fear that you will die in a Sasquatch attack, knowing the beast has never been proven to exist, but BUBBA recons he might a seen one. Here is an article explaining it all to you GOPers in dumbed-down detail that I'm sure none of you will grasp.
Critical race theory is a flashpoint for conservatives, but what does it mean?
Updated on Nov 4, 2021 9:18 AM EST — Published on Nov 2, 2021 10:04 PM EST (YES, I know it's an older article, but apparently;y the truth didn't stick the first time around.)
RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) — It has become a major issue in the Virginia governor’s race. Former President Donald Trump has railed against it. Republicans in the U.S. Senate introduced a resolution condemning any requirement for teachers to be trained in it. And several Republican-controlled states have invoked it in legislation restricting how race can be taught in public schools.
The concept known as critical race theory is the new lightning rod of the GOP. But what exactly is it?
The term seemed to appear in statehouses and at political rallies almost from nowhere. Over the past year, it has morphed from an obscure academic discussion point on the left into a political rallying cry on the right.
Yet, even those who condemn or seek to ban critical race theory in schools often struggle to define what it is. Real-world examples of students being indoctrinated in its principles are difficult to find.
What is critical race theory?
Critical race theory is a way of thinking about America’s history through the lens of racism. Scholars developed it during the 1970s and 1980s in response to what they viewed as a lack of racial progress following the civil rights legislation of the 1960s.
It centers on the idea that racism is systemic in the nation’s institutions and that they function to maintain the dominance of white people in society.
The architects of the theory argue that the United States was founded on the theft of land and labor and that federal law has preserved the unequal treatment of people on the basis of race. Proponents also believe race is culturally invented, not biological.
Kimberlé Crenshaw, executive director of the African American Policy Forum, a social justice think tank based in New York City, was one of the early proponents. Initially, she says, it was “simply about telling a more complete story of who we are.”
Is critical race theory being taught in schools?
There is little to no evidence that critical race theory itself is being taught to K-12 public school students, though some ideas central to it, such as lingering consequences of slavery, have been. In Greenwich, Connecticut, some middle school students were given a “white bias” survey that parents viewed as being part of the theory.
Republicans in North Carolina point to the Wake County Public School System as an example, saying teachers participated in a professional development session on critical race theory. County education officials canceled a future study session once it was discovered but insist the theory is not part of its classroom curriculum.
“Critical race theory is not something we teach to students,” said Lisa Luten, a spokeswoman for the school system. “It’s more of a theory in academia about race that adults use to discuss the context of their environment.”
In his campaign for Virginia governor, Republican Glenn Youngkin said he would ban the teaching of critical race theory in the state’s public schools.
Why are Republicans upset?
Many Republicans view the concepts underlying critical race theory as an effort to rewrite American history and convince white people that they are inherently racist and should feel guilty because of their advantages.
But the theory also has become somewhat of a catchall phrase to describe racial concepts some conservatives find objectionable, such as white privilege, systemic inequality and inherent bias.
Where did Republican pushback begin?
Republicans often cite the 1619 Project as a cause for concern. The New York Times initiative, published in 2019, aimed to tell a fuller story of the country’s history by putting slavery at the center of America’s founding.
Critical race theory popped into the mainstream last year when then-President Trump took aim at it and the 1619 Project during a White House event focused on the nation’s history. He called both “a crusade against American history” and “ideological poison that … will destroy our country.”
How are states addressing it?
So far, many Republican-led states have pushed legislation or other steps to limit how race and racism can be taught in schools.
Teachers unions, educators and social studies organizations worry the limits will whitewash American history by downplaying the role past injustices still play today. They also fear a chilling effect on classroom discussions.
Leading critical race theory scholars view the GOP-led measures as hijacking the national conversation about racial inequality that gained momentum after the killing of George Floyd by a white police officer in Minnesota.
Some say the ways Republicans describe it are unrecognizable to them. Cheryl Harris, a UCLA law professor who teaches a course on the topic, said it’s a myth that critical race theory teaches hatred of white people and is designed to perpetuate divisions in American society. Instead, she said she believes the proposals limiting how racism can be discussed in the classroom have a clear political goal: “to ensure that Republicans can win in 2022.”
Eve, it's not even a real thing to worry about. The bit in yellow asks, and the bit in green answers, now all you need to do is read and retain. Somehow I know that's too much to ask.
FFS GOPers, CRT theory is real and it's correct. From the beginning of this country, everything has been fine tuned to the sensitivities of white people. Anybody with a brain can see that, anybody. If you can't, then you now know what's wrong.
The radical left marxist progressive extremists are so busy teaching children they are victims of whiteness they never bothered teaching them to do math or read. I guess the crt will come in handy when they cant get a job because they are uneducated. They can always pull out their victim card and blame it on the whites. Thus completing the cycle.
NOPE. Disgruntled Trumpian GOPer Writer. Not news, LIES. LIES LIES LIES. Smmfh. Pull your head out of YOUR own ass, then pull it out of Trump's. You're delusional.
NOPE. Disgruntled Trumpian GOPer Writer. Not news, LIES. LIES LIES LIES. Smmfh. Pull your head out of YOUR own ass, then pull it out of Trump's. You're delusional.
Not nearly as delusional as you. Its literally based on a video from an educator. Plugging your ears going la la la la wont change the facts.
And there it is in all of its trumpian glory. Outright hatred ans lies towards anyone who disagrees. Those with limited vocabularies giving it their very best.
Quote
are so busy teaching children they are victims of whiteness they never bothered teaching them to do math or read.
A third grade reading level is required in the entire state of Tennessee to be passed into the fourth grade. Even those "liberal cities". Your above statement is a lie. And those poor white people who set up a system that worked against minorities throughout the history of this nation have gotten their little feelings hurt so their only response is to lash out and try to help hide that truth.
Quote
I guess the crt will come in handy when they cant get a job because they are uneducated. They can always pull out their victim card and blame it on the whites. Thus completing the cycle.
You are trying to act as if there aren't seven or eight different periods in a school day. Reading, history and math only take up three of those periods.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I am not going to stay on this thread, but much like your football posts, you have no freaking idea how the education system works. Not a single clue. So, don't go calling her a liar when you are speaking from a position of ignorance.
And for a guy who honors women so much, you sure abuse Eve. You're a phony.
I am not going to stay on this thread, but much like your football posts, you have no freaking idea how the education system works. Not a single clue. So, don't go calling her a liar when you are speaking from a position of ignorance.
And for a guy who honors women so much, you sure abuse Eve. You're a phony.
When she said that liberal cities don't teach kids to read or do math that is a lie. You can't claim it's "liberal cities" as a generalization when entire states have laws that demand and require certain benchmarks be reached. When you call everyone who disagrees with you names and slurs I'm going to call you on it. So Eve steps into the swamp and makes it swampier and according to you she gets a free pass because she's a woman? You're hilarious. Stick with what you know and this isn't it. All you know is about where you taught. Or is it your claim that where you taught school they didn't teach the students to read and do math? Yeah, I didn't think so. You hang around this forum you will get torn to shreds.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
No one can actually believe that all these kids are reading at a 3rd grade level, can they? I didn't think anyone was that gullible and out of touch w/reality. LMAO......and you won't take back a word of that ignorant claim. We all know you, Last Word Larry.
No they can't all read at a third grade level. That's why people are complaining that their children will be held back. I thought you weren't going to post on this thread anymore? So much for being a man of your word.
Concerned Nashville parents organize town hall to oppose third grade retention law
You said this: "A third grade reading level is required in the entire state of Tennessee to be passed into the fourth grade.", in response to someone saying something along the lines of "...they aren't teaching reading..." as in "Hey, we're MAKING them read at at least a 3rd grade level in order to go into 4th grade - if they can't, they don't go to 4th grade."
And now you post 2 articles saying parents don't like it and are fighting it?
This is sad to say, but if anyone thinks that we will EVER get each child to get to a 3rd grade reading level before they make it to 4th grade, they are delusional or misinformed. Again, there are so many students that graduate high school that can't read at a 3rd grade level. Some folks get fooled by politicians and their platforms. Some do not. Our country does not value education. Our forefathers did. We currently do not.
I can tell you all horror stories about what is occurring in education. For example, there is movement underway and several years in development that grants funds to schools that make minority children equal even if they do not earn it. The goal is to put them in gifted classes despite poor test scores. It's not about "earning" advancement, it's about "entitlement." It is not about equity. It's about equality w/out merit.
Does that help our country? Does that help individuals? Does that help our minorities?
I say, no.
I taught minorities for decades. Teacher of the Year at three different schools. My kids set records for their test scores. They did it not because it was given to them, but because they FREAKING earned it. I preached to them that they were not inferior. That they could succeed. That they were just as smart or smarter than anyone else. I preached that they things were not always fair, but to accept handouts was an insult. They learned that they were in control of their own fate. They just had to work harder than others.
You empower people w/hope! You empower people by believing in them. You empower people by helping become the best versions of themselves they can be. You do not empower people by giving them handouts. You do not empower people by telling them they are entitled. to things w/out earning them.
I know some will disagree w/me and others will even try to insult me for my views, but listen to this. I loved teaching. I especially loved teaching kids from lower socio-economic backgrounds. Many of those students were minorities. In my mind, one of the worst things you can ever tell a child is that he/she "is not good enough" and that they "need to be given things." Can you imagine how deflating that is to the ego of a child? Do Gooders make me sick. Some of us have lived in the real world. A child needs encouragement. A child needs to believe in him or herself. A child does NOT need to hear that they are incapable of competing w/their peers.
Good post Vers. These leftist policies are not about helping the minorities. It is about keeping them in poverty. Instill a victim mentality in children and then give them just enough to say you care and they'll always need your support. Give a person a fish and they will always need a fish. Teach them how to fish and they will not need you to give them a fish in the future. The teacher's union has destroyed the education system in the US and are failing our children.
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
For example, there is movement underway and several years in development that grants funds to schools that make minority children equal even if they do not earn it. The goal is to put them in gifted classes despite poor test scores. It's not about "earning" advancement, it's about "entitlement." It is not about equity. It's about equality w/out merit.
But that's not working either, so the new solution...
School Districts Are Dropping Honors Classes In The Name Of Equity
REAGAN REESE February 17, 2023
Several school districts across the country are no longer allowing students to take honors classes in an effort to increase equity, according to The Wall Street Journal.
Culver City High School in California recently axed honors classes because the courses were failing to enroll enough black and Latino students, according to the WSJ. Other school districts such as Santa Monica-Malibu Unified School District in California, and Patrick Henry High School in California, made similar shifts to their honors classes to increase equity.
“This is not a social experiment,” Jon Kean, a Santa Monica-Malibu Unified School Board member, said ahead of the district’s removal of the classes, according to the WSJ. “This is a sound pedagogical approach to education.”
The school districts say students who don’t take the courses when first given the option believe they can never enroll in an honors class, the WSJ reported. On average, black and Latino students enroll less in the accelerated classes.
Before dropping honors classes from the school district, the Culver City School Board said students who were not in the honors classes felt less successful, motivated and “unable to break out of the molds that they established when they were 11,” the WSJ reported.
At Santa Monica-Malibu Unified School District, honors English classes were eliminated because teachers felt they had “a moral imperative” to do so to ensure equity for minority students, the WSJ reported. Eliminating the classes “has increased access and provided excellent educational experiences for all of our students,” the school district told the WSJ.
The Madison School Board in Wisconsin made the decision to keep its honors classes but allow freshmen to earn honors credits in courses that were not accelerated, according to the Wisconsin State Journal. A Rhode Island school removed honors classes but similarly allowed students to earn honor credit on their transcripts within non-accelerated classes, the WSJ reported.
“We really feel equity means offering opportunities to students of diverse backgrounds, not taking away opportunities for advanced education and study,” Joanna Schaenman, a Culver City parent, told the WSJ.
Culver City High School, Santa Monica-Malibu Unified School District, Patrick Henry High School and Madison School District did not immediately respond to the Daily Caller News Foundation’s request for comment.
Thanks. I want to clarify something because I did not do a good job of articulating my point while writing that post. I was not referring to one political party over another. The crap in education has been ongoing no matter which party is in charge.
Wow. I've been out of the loop for a few years. I wasn't aware of that movement. Once again, it's another example of how we are failing our students. Thanks for posting.
It's a law in the state of Tennessee. Period. You can talk about where you taught. You can talk about the states you taught in when you taught there. But what you can't do is claim you know the requirements and laws in Tennessee as of now. Because when it comes to that you are 100% wrong.
Here is an explanation of the law from the Tennessee Department of education. Maybe you can learn something from it.
Frequently Asked Questions on the Promotion and Retention of Third Grade Students
Yes. Students meeting certain conditions set forth in T.C.A. § 49-6-3115 are automatically exempt from the retention requirements in the law. Additionally, T.C.A. § 49-6-3115 does not supersede an LEA's or public charter school's obligation to comply with the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (20 U.S.C. § 1400 et seq.), Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act (29 U.S.C. § 794), or any other state or federal civil rights laws. A student meeting one of the listed exemptions below may be promoted without further action:
• A student who is an English language learner and has received less than two (2) years of ELA instruction;
• A student who was previously retained in any of the grades kindergarten through three (K-3); or
• A student who has a disability or a suspected disability that impacts reading.
But then according to you, you aren't really here since you said you wouldn't be posting in this thread anymore. lmao
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
You said this: "A third grade reading level is required in the entire state of Tennessee to be passed into the fourth grade.", in response to someone saying something along the lines of "...they aren't teaching reading..." as in "Hey, we're MAKING them read at at least a 3rd grade level in order to go into 4th grade - if they can't, they don't go to 4th grade."
And now you post 2 articles saying parents don't like it and are fighting it?
Yes they are. They believe that due to in home learning because of Covid far too many students are behind and more time should pass allowing more time for them to catch up before such a law is put into place. I'm pretty sure that was in those articles had you bothered reading them.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Ohio went even further than Tennessee and straight up dropped their 3rd grade proficiency requirements. They are right to do so because otherwise they would have to hold back most of the class (Columbus City Schools would probably have to fail 90% of the class) and then you end up a very small 4th grade class the next year and a giant 3rd grade class. I have a 3rd grader and can tell you that all of this was 100% predictable. We knew that kids were not ready to go full distance learning. We knew that you cannot effectively communicate with 1st graders through a mask. The thing I find frustrating is that all of this learning deficit can be corrected very quickly through summer schooling and tutoring, but nobody is willing to take action or put in the extra effort that it will take to help these kids. Most parents, politicians, and administrators would rather fight over which books should be allowed in the library and which bathrooms boys and girls should be allowed to use. Most of the teachers and a few of the parents understand the significant of the problem, but most of the people that are responsible for this problem have moved onto new distractions and take no responsibility for what happens with these children in the aftermath of COVID.
Actually Tennessee did just the opposite. I'm not sure how a mask has anything to do with this however. Distance learning is something that parents had to be directly involved with in overseeing and making sure their child was keeping up and understanding especially for younger children. Hopefully one would think they would have learned through that experience just how difficult a teachers job really is.
I think one of the big reasons a lot of children fell behind was because the parents either didn't understand how involved they needed to be, were too busy working to make a living and in some cases just didn't care enough to get involved.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Actually Tennessee did just the opposite. I'm not sure how a mask has anything to do with this however. Distance learning is something that parents had to be directly involved with in overseeing and making sure their child was keeping up and understanding especially for younger children. Hopefully one would think they would have learned through that experience just how difficult a teachers job really is.
I think one of the big reasons a lot of children fell behind was because the parents either didn't understand how involved they needed to be, were too busy working to make a living and in some cases just didn't care enough to get involved.
Most parents don't understand the problem. They are not professionals and most of them don't understand why things like masks would be a problem. The teachers with years of experience can compare one class to another and see how things are being effected in real time. So they understand the problem. None of that is anybody's fault (and if it is someone's fault, it's time to move past that) but parents, administrators, unions and politicians need to actually talk to those teachers to understand what the problems are and come up with a plan to fix them. We saw the writing on the wall and got our kids a tutor as soon as it all started. When you do this, it is actually surprising how little extra effort is required to make up for a learning deficit. But, it is not going to self correct on its own over time. If school districts decide to do nothing, then these kids will remain behind for the entirety of their education.
The thing about masks is that it can make it difficult to understand a speaker and read someones expression, partially this is due to muffled sound but also partially to do with the fact that we actually rely on watching a persons lips and expression as part of listening. I don't know about you, but I was constantly having to ask people to repeat themselves. Here is the thing about first graders that some people didn't understand until COVID; If they don't understand you and can't read your face, then they will have no interest in what you are saying and even if they don't understand you, just let you keep talking and won't care that they didn't understand you.
I am not going to stay on this thread, but much like your football posts, you have no freaking idea how the education system works. Not a single clue. So, don't go calling her a liar when you are speaking from a position of ignorance.
And for a guy who honors women so much, you sure abuse Eve. You're a phony.
I hear you, Vers, and I respect that you are very familiar with the subject. But the general consensus around here from your detractors seems to be 'it must have sucked having you as a teacher', and I doubt they will listen to your opinions on this. I don't know who is right or wrong, but I do know your primary purpose for even coming into PP is generally to stir crap. And you know Pit is like a dog with a bone in a keyboard warrior fight, another clue that you are seeking the same. But hey, man, I find it almost impossible to take any of you seriously anymore. What a waste of time this board has become.