DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Organizational Structure

Refs, if you think its repetitive, feel free to delete.

We have a few threads going around that where we are discussing this, so I thought it would be better to put here.

I am not against the HC hire.
I am not against Depo
I am not against using analytics

What I, and I think most are against, is the organizational structure setup AGAIN, by Jimmeh.

In an organization, you have to have a leader, someone that is going to take others thoughts, opinions, and suggestions into account, and then form and make their own opinion based on the information and move forward with what is best for the company. You do not have 3 or 4 guys, all with a same level of input having a say over things.

We are seeing round 3 now, of a structure that is going to pit 3 guys against each other, all vying for Jimmeh's ear, and power within the structure. Right now, we will have Depo, the new GM, and Kevin all looking to gain an advantage with Jimmeh. All looking to gain his ear, so they can say "hey, I was right, they were wrong, you need to give me more control" Then the other guy will come in and say the same thing. and so on and so on. We have seen all too many times. Articles have been written about it, reported in the press. People walk around not know the flow of the organizational chart, who to go too, who to contact, etc. We saw it with Sashi/Hue, who was making and approving trades? Do you think its not going to happen?

We are going to get to a trade, the HC will want to make it, the GM will not, and Depo will not. Or vice versa, Depo will want to make it, the GM and the HC will not, so on and so forth. So whats going to happen? Someone is going to make their case to Jimmeh for or against it. The trade will go through, it will fail - Jimmeh will want answers, and then the finger pointing will start. Jimmeh will have to take a side, or blow the whole thing up. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

We saw it with Pettine and Farmer when Jimmeh started this approach - it was bad.

We saw it again with Sashi and Hue - it was worse.

We are going for round 3 now.

It might work right away for a year or two - but as soon as a bad game, or a bad season comes - the wheels WILL fall off. it will end in disaster as each person will be in survival mode, looking to blame the other guy for the collapse. There will be no real leadership, there will be no real voice of the team.

THIS is the reason I think it will fail, and I believe I speak for others as well.

Kevin might be the next Paul Brown, but in this structure, his hands are tied and his future is already written.

My .02

You are making a huge leap here in your assuming that this scenario will occur. Take a step back, a deep breath....and trust the process.

Is it though? It literally has been happening since Jimmeh bought the team. Its not a really a leap if that's the MO of his organizational structure.

With 32 teams in this league, we've seen a variety of ways to structure a football organization.

I think Jimmy is trying to get this right. And whether it's football, or any thing else in life, not everyone is going to agree 100% of the time. The key is having a plan in place to balance out any disagreements.

Time will tell, but I like what Jimmy is trying to do. I think bc of the history of what Jimmy has done as an owner so far, we are more critical of every move he makes (and deserving so), but the guys he's putting in place to turn this organization around.. They deserve time.

" and trust the process. " .... In Cleveland , man thats asking a lot !

No doubt. Huge assumption.

Pettine/Farmer = forced marriage = No shared plan/vision = bitter divorce

Sashi/Jackson = forced marriage = No shared plan/vision = bitter divorce

Dorsey/Jackson/DePo = forced marriage = No shared plan/vision = bitter divorce

Dorsey/DePo = forced marriage = No shared plan/vision = bitter divorce

DePo/Stefanski/? = willfully married = shared plan/vision = good chance to work if Haslam let's them do their jobs

The browns are the only team with this structure, however.

I have said from day one, Jimmeh wants to win. I just dont think he knows how or can. I will give him that credit. Hes not like the Pirates Nutting - where hes just trying to make cash and be darned the team. But that's still not enough of an excuse to accept these outcomes. I believe Jimmeh thinks hes doing a great job - its everyone else the problem is. . . .

In the other thread, Purp and I got into this. To be a good leader, you need to have people that stand up to you. You need to have people to challenge you. You need to have people strong in areas that you are weak in. You need to be able to take in their points, their critisizms, and learn from them, along with making your decisions from them. But you cannot, have 3 guys with equal say to you. There has to be a structure and a ladder. Jimmeh will listen to one guy, then when hes wrong go to the next, then when hes wrong go to the next, then when hes wrong fire them all for being wrong and say - "we got to get this aligned". he wants yes man, that are going to just support his wrong way of doing things.

Plan and Jimmeh should not be used in the same sentence. This was the plan the 1st time, and 2nd. Now is the 3rd. As long as jimmeh uses people the way he does - its going to end the same way.

did you like with with Hue and Sashi? Did you like it with Pettine and Farmer? Those were the same structure he set up.

the names done matter, its the STRUCTURE. We see football teams hire guys all the time that are "arranged". What does that even mean btw? Dorsey hired his HC. that was arranged. Hue came in knowing analytics was going to be big, it didn't work because of the structure setup ALLOWED hue to go to jimmeh to override Sashi, and vice versa.

Your line of thinking will work, if Stefanski, Depo, and the New GM ALL AGREE 100% of the time.

The second they do not, you will see them going to Jimmeh, like Hue did, like pettine did, etc., causing turmoil and infighting. There is no clear picture here when a disagreement happens. If you have 3 guys all with the same input and power - when one or two dont agree, what happens?

So you've been banging away on the keyboard all day long in a long winded effort to say you don't trust Jimmy Haslam?

BREAKING: 99.9% of this board (and Browns fans in general) do not trust Jimmy Haslam. This isn't a new or novel thought.

All structures have failed under Haslam.

If you need someone other than Haslam to oversee football operations to give you the warm and fuzzies and structure you prefer, bring back Sashi as President of Football Ops!

I like what you did here. I think there's more to it than this, but you gave the gist of what has happened here.

I think for once we have a very good organizational structure. And by that I mean everyone is on the same page.

It's crucial.

I feel the same way that this is doomed from the start...again. I'm already finding myself wondering who the GM and Head Coach will be in 2021. Not really but the point is just that I don't feel it matters who is brought in because I don't believe Jimmy has figured out that he is the biggest problem.

He paid for the franchise so he has the right to continue to make all of the big decisions but I've lost hope things will get fixed until the Hasslam's are out. Of course I'll still torture myself every Sunday until then because I'm an idiot...and because Bernie ruined me by sucking me into this mess as a boy.

I think Willitevachange did a nice job illustrating why this approach doesn't work but there are many many more examples and scenarios that can be added...and we only need to look in the rear view mirror for them.

I don't think the Brown's failed in their decision on this Head Coach. It's too early to tell. I would have liked to see us snag Rivera or McCarthy because they've got strong track records but, again, I don't think it matters because I believe the structure is broken.

Jimmy has toyed with the structure with each change he's made but it's always broken and always takes advantage of his weakness in being a prisoner to the moment and listening to whoever has his ear. He needs just one neck to choke, such as a President of Football Operations. The rest of the guys should report under that person in a similar fashion to most of the other successful franchises. I have to admit I can't say I know what that is but I don't think it includes 3 or more equally empowered cooks in the kitchen with the same authority/power.

Trust me their is still people who buy into the Browns no matter what moves they make
Haslam has his supporters but they don't post on here

And yet here you are, banging away all day trying to refute and stick up for a guy that has gone 33-111.

That record is not a typo, mind you.

Where did I say Sashi needs to come back? Now your just making up crap hoping it sticks to the walls.

if your not going to contribute to the thread in a meaningful manner, be gone.

Here is the current Organizational Structure...

Welcome to the board! thank you for a well thought out reply. That is rare these days.

We would have to pry him away from the Washington Wizards first.



Here's the real question. We've watched Haslam try and use this structure before and fail miserably at it.

So the question isn't "can this type of structure work". The question is, is Haslam the kind of man that can make this structure work?

We've seen and read several sources that show Haslam's style is to try and pit those in charge at odds with one another in an effort to get some sort of inside scoop on each of those that are supposed to be working together. Asking each of those involved about the positives and negatives of their cohorts.

So one must look at who is implementing such a structure more so than the actual structure itself. Thus far Haslam has fallen flat on his face in every attempt he has made trying this tactic.

3rd times a charm?

I think the body count is much higher than three.

Where did I stick up for Haslam? You're making up an argument that was never made.

I clearly said nobody trusts him.

Again, nobody trusts Haslam. This isn't new or novel or profound. Carry on.

The Sashi comment was clearly a joke. I assumed the emoji was the dead giveaway.

I was hoping you would see my comment as a joke in return. Slightly ironic but a joke none the less.

Have these been constant since 2016, because I may be wrong,

Constant since 2016,
Jimmy
Depo,
the losing,
analytics,

and coaching just not getting the most out of coaching?

Am I right on saying those are all constants since 2016?
Because I'm not really sure anymore.

Sounds like the plan is, doubling down on all of the above and hoping the losing goes away.

Roger that!

On top of that - as I mentioned elsewhere - willitever was convinced that McDaniels would learn and improve on being HC after his flat out disaster in Denver. . . . but he's assuming that Jimmy, the guy who took his dad's small business and built an empire, is too stupid to learn from his earlier mistakes and cannot/will not improve as an owner after he contaminated the structure with Farmer and Pettine.

I'm less than thrilled at the HC decision. But rooting for him 100% moving forward.
More than happy that Depo is still available for data/analytics.
Happy that the coach has input on the GM.
Feel that a 'wait and see' approach is needed for the 'structure' and the amount of actual input (or otherwise hopefully) Haslam has on the football side of things.

I did see it that way.

This is for you, Mr Haslam:

This is it in a nutshell. Can the guy who built a juggernaut out of his daddy's small/medium sized business - learn and do better than the first time around?

After thinking about it more I've decided that I need to hear the people involved speak before I make a determination on what the organizational structure will be.

No no no - let's overreact and make assumptions and riot in the streets !!! Much more fun.

It definitely is much more fun.

This seems to be something I have heard over the years.

In "his daddy's business" he is marketing other people's products. He didn't create the hot dog brand he sells, or the diesel fuel quality of the brand he sells. He didn't invent or create Coke or Cinnabon.

He simply found the best way to market those products to the public. Building a brand and creating a winning product aren't the same thing. Thus the discrepancy of how successful one has been and the current failure of the other.

No matter what form the organizational chart takes, until the man at the very top commits to allowing his hires to do the jobs they were hired to do, the team is doomed to failure.

I think that this has become a massive ego thing for Haslam. He has the worst winning % of any owner in any of the 4 major sports. His is even worse than Ted Stepien. He has losses, and he panics, and then decides to blow everything up so he can "get it right", Until he gets his ego out of the way, and allows football people to make football decisions, the team will never win consistently.

This proposed 3 legged table approach has been tried here before. It doesn't matter how wed the 3 legs are to one another, if the team fails to live up to the expectations of the owner, one will still turn on another if the owner creates an environment that inspires this kind of behavior.

The only solution I see is for Haslam to give each "partner" in this organizational structure a 7 or 8 year deal, with no offset. Make it hurt so much from a financial aspect that he has to stay the course he has set.

However, I don't see that happening, and I see us blowing things up in another year or 2. (and not all because of the coach, GM, and analytics, but because of the owner)

I disagree. Building a successful business - whether manufacturing a product or offering a service or reselling - is not easy and people who have done it well and been uber successful deserve credit. It matters not whether you make something and brand it and market it - or own gas/truck stations and build a $29 Billion business..... If it was easy there'd be more people doing it.

https://spielman-and-hooley.pinecast.co/...rificial-giving

Spielman likes analytics.

I would argue that there is really no other business that prepares you to be successful as an NFL owner.. Robert Kraft isn't considered a great owner because of all the things he learned in the packing and shipping industry... he didn't invent the cardboard box or the delivery truck..

Just like Jimmy Haslam doesn't have to create a winning product, he doesn't have to invent the forward pass or tackling drills or kicking tees.. He doesn't have to turn a scrawny kid into Myles Garrett or Nick Chubb... those things are done.. it's just a matter of putting the people in place who can maximize the potential of it all..

No, Robert Kraft isn't a genius football owner because of his packaging history.. he's a genius because he inherited Bill Parcells and he turned that into Bill Belichick... it's really about that simple.

Trust the process? ... why? ... what am i basing this trust on? ...

I agree most need to chill ... to many exploding heads .... *L* ....

But please explain to me why I should trust the process? ... very curious as to why u trust it ...

So in your mind, marketing is the same thing as building an NFL franchise?

I'm happy to give credit to Haslam at what he has been good at and he has been good at marketing and building a vehicle for consumers to consume products other people have made available to him.

But for you to act as though those businesses even closely resemble each other is a reach of gigantic proportions.

In his opening presser he mentioned marketing several times. Including but no limited to, "It's a marketing world".

And thus far it seems some have a better ability to make such a transition than other people do.

It's like Cash Cab. Use your mobile shout out!

It’s not the structure .... never was and never will be ...

It’s start with understanding who the most important person in the org, is ... its the dude with final authority over the personal decisions .... the thief still don’t get that ... he NEVER HAS ...

When the head of the snake is rotten ... good luck with the rest of the snake not being rotten ...

No - I didn't say that an NFL franchise is like anything else.

I said Haslam is a successful business owner. He grew a business. That takes more than blind luck. He deserves kudos and can be credited with at least the *possibility* that he will learn from his mistakes that took place during the Farmer/Pettine regime.

You seemed to suggest that because he wasn't manufacturing a product that building his business was somehow less of an accomplishment.