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Originally Posted By: RocketOptimist
I wonder a few questions about this entire topic.

Who in this thread ever talked to someone in a gang, had a non-combative conversation with them, and asked their motivation for gang membership?

Has anyone in this thread asked the opinion of the oppressed community for their opinion to fix the violence?

People can only liberate themselves if the oppressor gives them enough space to find freedom.


I think these are fine questions to start a more detailed discussion about social contracts. I think it will help you understand these kind of problems and it will also explain a bit why I am a bit of a socialist and how in fact all of us are to some degree.

The Social Contract

The idea of a social contract is nothing new. It's been around for thousands of years and even Plato talked about it. Hobbs is probably the most famous for his discussions on it. For the sake of brevity though I won't go into all that and simply state what it is at least in my own opinion.

A social contract is where the members of society agree to live by certain rules and give up certain freedoms in order to gain a mutual benefit that will enhance their ability to survive and especially that of their children and grandchildren to survive. It's a very simple concept.

Think of a king/government and his subjects. The people agree to follow the king because he will lead troops to protect them, make sure there is food to eat, and that his people prosper enough to have shelter from the elements whether because he gives it to them or creates a way for them to earn it for themselves. When the King holds up his end everyone is happy but when he doesn't people leave the kingdom or even rebel.

The entirety of the formation of the United States of America is modeled on the idea of a social contract. This part of the Declaration of Independence says it perfectly:

"...We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with
certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness—That to secure these
Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed..."

This was the core of America's social contract. The constitution added more but in essence it's just fulfilling the ideals of that contract.

Now Life is pretty simple. We have the right to live. Liberty to reasonably do as we please but life is more important so we don't have the freedom to hurt the lives of other citizens. Pretty common sense stuff for most of us.

The pursuit of happiness. THIS one is tricky. Why? Because we are all motivated to happiness by many, many different things. The gist is though, that we are free to pursue our happiness if it doesn't hurt the lives of others nor takes away their freedoms, especially to pursue their own happiness.

Why are we all Socialist?

First off what do I mean by that right? Socialism is rule by the working people. At it's very core Socialism is that the working people choose who governs. Democracies are run by the working class because they are generally the majority and the ones who actually go out to vote. Therefore all democracies have a core of socialism in it.

Now as working people we KNOW that we need certain things in order to be able to WORK and maintain ourselves as the working class who are entitled to vote on who governs. What are those needs?

Life- We need to be alive.
Healthy - You can't work if your too ill to work.
Food - Starving people are really bad at working hard plus you will die without food.
Shelter - Winter in the north can kill you as easily as summer in the south if you don't have shelter to protect yourself.
Education - We have public schools because we KNOW you need a certain level of knowledge to be able to perform work.
Safety - We need protection from other countries, criminals, and natural disasters because they threaten our LIFE. Dead people don't work.

We have welfare, schools, hospitals, police, firemen, and military because of Socialism. We know what we need in order for us and our children to be able to work. We have designed our government and its priorities around be sure that we are able to work. This is the core of socialism.

Now there are a lot of different systems that are used to implement socialism the most well known is one where the government owns all businesses and shares the profits equally. In a perfect world or ant colony that might work but not with humans because we are selfish by nature and filled with greed. Granted some are more greedy than others but we all have it. This is why complete socialism doesn't work and works best as a part of another system like democracy so the voters can control how much we share and how much we are allowed to hoard.

In a democracy it works well because it's not set in stone and can fluctuate according to the desires of the people. It also runs the risk of of the people who don't work having too large a vote and turning into communism. It's a delicate balance where we have need some socialism mixed in with some capitalism to ensure that we can all have a chance "to pursue happiness."

to be continued ...


You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Why does someone join a gang?

The number one reason is that society failed to honor the social contract with them so they formed a new contract with another entity.

Lets have some examples:

Your the father of two young children. You have been looking for work but you can't find a job or at least one that provides a roof over your head and food for your children. Your kids are starving. At this point do you stay a law abiding citizen or do you do whatever it takes to feed your family? Most parents will choose to do whatever it takes. Not all but most.

So now you breaking the law and having some success at it. Your kids aren't hungry anymore. However people you don't know start to notice you. They don't really give you a choice. It's join, get out of town, or die. They say they prefer you to join. They promise if you join and something happens to you while on the job they will see that your kids are taken care of if you can keep your mouth shut if your caught.

You do good. It's so much easier to steal and rob than to go out and earn it. Now you start to feel like only fools work from 9 to 5. Unlike the government your boss keeps his word. Even though your caught for some minor stuff he protects your family while your in. When you come out your more loyal than when you went in. After all the government never helped you anyways.

Another scenario,

Your 14 years old. You live in the projects because the only work your mom can do is work as a waitress. She doesn't earn much but she does her best. Then she gets hurt. Money dries up. Your hungry and getting desperate because you have younger siblings and mom can't work for a few months.

The punks in the neighborhood know your situation because they know everyone's situation in THAT neighborhood. They know you need some help. Well kid we ain't a charity but if your willing to do some jobs we can see that you and yours at least can survive till your ma gets better. We can just see how it goes.

They give you an easy job. Just carry some bags of stuff in your backpack and deliver it on your way home from school. Just clip this bangle on your bag so the punks know to leave you alone. If some does grief you then just run and let us know who did it. We will take care of them. Your just a kid so don't be stupid. Great the work is easy and now your Ma is back on her feet. You don't have to keep doing the jobs anymore but it feels so great to know your helping the family out.

The guy in charges sees that your mom is working again so he says that you don't have to do the jobs anymore and just let him know if you need help in the future because you where a good "worker." I mean that is really what you are after all. You just transport bags like the mailman does and that big brown truck does.

You stop for a while because now ma is working and your siblings need someone looking after them and that's your job while ma works. You sure miss that easy money though and they sure treated you good.

Next time ma gets hurt you know right where to go to find work. Of course you never knew the reason she broke her leg was one of the "guys" tripped her by "accident." Twice.


You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Anyways I hope it answered your question.


You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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