The Patriots used Cover 1 to build an 8 man/strong box and played stout against run and brought pressure. Other teams have copied the scheme which renders the run game ineffective and underused as well as challenges the passing game with press man on the WRs to deny the quick completion while pressuring the QB.
What has Hue's response been?
From what I see Hue/Pep's plan has been to attack Cover 1 vertically in the passing game to lighten up the box count to be able to run again. And to take advantage of stop routes (comebacks and hitches) from the wide receivers.
However; the passing attack hasn't been able to connect deep and Kessler right or wrong has become the fall guy for the lack of a deep passing game. Meanwhile iirc the Browns have thrown the second most hitches/comebacks in the league.
I think the offense game plan vs Cover 1 has been too focused on forcing the deep ball and taking the hitches/comebacks that it is not taking advantage of other weaknesses more in line of with Kessler's natural style of play.
o mismatch with the backs versus linebackers (bolded portions are straight from Smartfootball) imho Duke Johnson could be killing LBs all day, I think he can be as effective as any receiving back in the league.
o no under cover [on] crossing routes the WRs all have speed to separate horizontally, shallow crossers are a good opportunity for short catch/long run type of passes
o “bunch” and “snug” type sets –
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How to attack it Back routes on the linebackers create mismatches with the TE running option (“read”) routes stay shallow with routes, catch the ball short and run long crossing routes (“mesh”) with the wide receivers TE in the alley or fades to the wide receivers running plays coverage away from FS by “looking off” - See more at:
Anyhow that's what I mean when I say I am disappointed in the playcalling/gameplan lately. I must add the caveat that I think Hue is a great coach and look forward to what adjustments Hue/Pep make.
My thoughts are that I have been saying NE figured out how to limit the Browns for quite awhile now and some folks have been ripping me for it.
I also think that Hue is seeing what I see and that he is calling the right plays to exploit the defenses that teams are running against us.
Furthermore, I don't get this love affair w/Cody and the blame game being assigned to Hue. I like Cody and think he is playing better than I thought he would, but the guy is one of our problems. Not thee problem, but one of the problems.
If it were me, I would bench Cody immediately. When he is ready to take what defenses are giving him, I would give him another shot. But, not until then.
There are several ways to attack the weaknesses of Cover-1 defenses.
But, I only see Hue/Pep attempting loosen the defense up through attacking vertically and through comebacks in the passing game.
There is no doubt attacking vertically is a viable way to exploit the weakness of Cover 1. But even at successful rates attacking vertically is a low percentage yield that doesn't maximize sustaining offense. Especially compared to the other higher efficiency means. And for me the lack of higher efficiency Cover 1 'beaters' ala shallow crossers/drags, RB routes, bunch, mesh (rub routes) is a mistake that is causing Kessler to play at a sub optimal level. I think Hue is forcing the deep ball rather then allowing Kessler to hit the deep ball naturally. I get prodding him to be more aggressive I was saying the same thing back in Patriots game and posted screen caps of Ricardo Louis getting open against press man in that game.
But, attack vertically is not the only way to move the ball against Cover 1 and it doesn't play to Kessler's skillset as much as the other Cover-1 beaters do.
I understand your point about different ways to attack that defense.
But if the QB simply refused to make the throws, than Hue and Pep are severely limited to the types of plays they can call.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
I never once suggested that the ONLY way to attack Cover 1 was by beating a team vertically. In fact, I have repeatedly praised Hue for the numerous amount of plays he has called that has disguised Cody's weaknesses and still somehow exploited the defenses we have faced since NE figured it all out.
Hue is doing a masterful job and it has to be frustrating listening to dumb-ass media types and fans criticizing him for hurting Cody.
I was not as high on Hue as many and often warned posters that him being an elite play designer, play caller, and QB Whisperer were a bit overrated and would not translate as well w/a team that is severely lacking in talent.
However, I am not stupid enough to blame him for things that are beyond his control.
Y'all should stop w/the Cody love-fest and blaming Hue. It's how good men lose jobs and back-up QBs buy a couple of extra years as a starter to "see what they got."
I never once suggested that the ONLY way to attack Cover 1 was by beating a team vertically. In fact, I have repeatedly praised Hue for the numerous amount of plays he has called that has disguised Cody's weaknesses and still somehow exploited the defenses we have faced since NE figured it all out.
Okay. My point in this thread is I don't think the offense is doing enough and relying too much on attacking vertically.
So, now I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with the above?
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Hue is doing a masterful job...
You don't think the offense could sustain itself better by using more RB routes to Duke, shallow crossers, bunch and mesh routes?
Okay. My point in this thread is I don't think the offense is doing enough and relying too much on attacking vertically.
So, now I'm not sure if you are agreeing to disagreeing the above.
I am not emphatically disagreeing, but yes, I am disagreeing. We run all kinds of routes. We run all kinds of underneath routes. We bring our backs out of the backfield. We run TE drags. We run a plethora of routes.
The problem is multi-faceted. It starts w/Cody not taking what the defense is giving. I called it in the post-game discussion after the NE game. I have said it over and over. I had one guy freak out because he said I was making it up about NE.
Do you understand that a team can move the ball down the field w/the short passing game when teams are giving you that, but then bog down in the red zone when the field is compacted? Are you telling me you haven't seen that?
Are you telling me you have not noticed we were first in the league in rushing BEFORE the NE game and have now slipped to 22nd? Why is that? Did Crow suddenly start sucking? Come on, ed.......
Okay. My point in this thread is I don't think the offense is doing enough and relying too much on attacking vertically.
So, now I'm not sure if you are agreeing to disagreeing the above.
I am not emphatically disagreeing, but yes, I am disagreeing. We run all kinds of routes. We run all kinds of underneath routes. We bring our backs out of the backfield. We run TE drags. We run a plethora of routes.
I disagree completely. There is a thread on Cody vs the Ravens that has screen caps of a lot of Cody's passes. I have reviewed all his passes via all-22 so I have a pretty good handle on what was available to Cody.
I am not talking about generalities. I am talking specifics and in the Ravens game there was clearly an express intent to beat there coverage vertically.
Duke was not featured in the passing game at all. There were less shallow crossers, bunch and mesh routes then there were go routes, seam routes and comebacks.
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The problem is multi-faceted. It starts w/Cody not taking what the defense is giving.
The specific problem I trying to discuss here is specifically about how this offense is choosing to attack Cover-1 man recently. And I disagree that the problem is with Cody not taking what the defense gives him. And for me the recent problem has more to do with an offense that lacks diversity in the passing game. I see a passing game who's main focus has been to force the ball vertically downfield OR throw comeback/hitch routes (that defenses begin squatting on) as opposed to working crossers, drags, exploiting Duke as a mis-match with LBs, and even corner routes (which we've scored twice on but don't call very often).
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Do you understand that a team can move the ball down the field w/the short passing game when teams are giving you that, but then bog down in the red zone when the field is compacted?
Do you understand that NOT taking the short passing game AND trying to force the vertical routes makes an offense inefficient and unable to sustain offense?
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Are you telling me you have not noticed we were first in the league in rushing BEFORE the NE game and have now slipped to 22nd? Why is that? Did Crow suddenly start sucking?
rom the OP:
Originally Posted By: edromeo
The Patriots used Cover 1 to build an 8 man/strong box and played stout against run and brought pressure. Other teams have copied the scheme which renders the run game ineffective and underused as well as challenges the passing game with press man on the WRs to deny the quick completion while pressuring the QB.
Um did you even read my post? I address your exact question in the OP.
I pretty much disagree w/every single point you made. We aren't throwing underneath routes? We aren't throwing the ball to backs? We are "forcing" the ball deep?
LOL..........
You are good w/stats and researching, but your observations of the game are way off.
I am asking Swish to define which 'them' he is talking about.
Please. That ain't gonna happen.
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Can you show me all the plays that Hue has called and prove that he is not ever using other plays that exploit Cover 1?
Get real, ed.
Sure SWISH could clarify which plays he's talking about since we're saying different things. IF Swish thinks Cody is turning down open drags, shallow crossers, bunch, mesh and RB features routes I am curious which plays he's talking about.
Lol, forgive me for actually want to talk in specifics and not in generalities.
And oh btw, there is a thread (which I've already mentioned) that actually discussed with screen caps most of Cody's passing plays from the Ravens game...so yeah I could tell you which routes were ran etc...but it appears you want to talk in generalities while trying your best to turn this into whatever other agenda that I'm not even talking about that you want to push....
My thoughts are that I have been saying NE figured out how to limit the Browns for quite awhile now and some folks have been ripping me for it.
I also think that Hue is seeing what I see and that he is calling the right plays to exploit the defenses that teams are running against us.
Furthermore, I don't get this love affair w/Cody and the blame game being assigned to Hue. I like Cody and think he is playing better than I thought he would, but the guy is one of our problems. Not thee problem, but one of the problems.
If it were me, I would bench Cody immediately. When he is ready to take what defenses are giving him, I would give him another shot. But, not until then.
Not me,
This is one thing that we agree on. This is one reason why he is holding the ball so long is because there is just so much traffic in the range he can throw the ball.
Now for Ed's solutions on routes:
The long horizontal crossing routes are a little tough for a rookie QB with a weaker arm when you have 5 or so defenders in such a shallow area and LB's are just waiting to jump those passes. That is exactly what Peyton Manning did when he came back with the noodle arm though.
You are right Ed on what we are facing. I think more TE read routes will work as long as Cody can stay on the same page, but we'll still need more.
How about we go vertical even with the weaker armed QB?
Just substitute Pryor for Sanu on this play. I know this one is in the playbook.
Also start with your wideouts way out on the sideline and make one of them a quick read stop and go. The QB needs to fake that stop route hard and if the WR gets a step, float that go route out on the sideline where the safety can't get there in time. If the QB connects, chances are it's a TD because the safeties have too much ground to make up on a speedy WR.
Also, we need to stack WR's and even run trips every now and then to make the guys in man coverage have to cross each other or switch men. The NFL is also really bad about calling pick plays, so we should be running those as well. We have to do whatever we can to get that WR open quicker to allow Cody to float it a little before second level defenders can react.
Just my opinion, but it's what I would do.
I don't mind us playing Cody, because quite frankly I don't see anyone else on our roster that is future other than maybe RG3 and I have my doubts on him after all that sitting that he has done. I think his mechanics will probably revert to how they were before he got here.
Okay.........I see what is coming. Someone is going to say I am just being confrontational.
Let me give an example or two:
A game or two ago, we line up w/the 3 guys up-front. Cody hesitates a bit and dumps a pass to Crow who breaks a long gain. Is that forcing the ball down the field?
A second play. Pryor and Coleman clear deep. Hawk runs a short hook. Cody hits him for a 6 yard gain.
These plays are numerous. They are there and we call them. However, Cody is not utilizing everything that is available to him and you spinning it and blaming Hue does not translate to truth.
Look ed, here is the bottom line. Hue has had success in this league. Cody has not.
You wanna spin BS, go ahead.........but, that is all it is. BS! Hue ain't the problem. And I will fight guys like you who will only add to the ignorant rhetoric of him being fired.
The long horizontal crossing routes are a little tough for a rookie QB with a weaker arm when you have 5 or so defenders in such a shallow area and LB's are just waiting to jump those passes.
It seems like you are talking about 2 different routes here. Cody connected with Devalve for a score on a long horizontal crossing route against the Ravens. (Also threw a TD to Hawkins on a Corner routes. Those routes while still somewhat arm intensive are still require less then say a sideline vertical or seam.
Against Cover-1 man the shallow crossers/drag routes are going to be open because its an intrinsic weakness of the coverage itself. The defenders are locked up in man so there isn't a zone to defender to jump crossers/drag routes.
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You are right Ed on what we are facing. I think more TE read routes will work as long as Cody can stay on the same page, but we'll still need more.
Careful not to blame Hue. I wonder about Gary, I didn't watch the Browns last year so I can't tell if there is a difference from last year or not but Gary seems very average. He's not sudden and doesn't separate very well. I like the Devalve kid, moves well separates would like to seem him on the field more...maybe even in place of Gary.
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Also, we need to stack WR's and even run trips every now and then to make the guys in man coverage have to cross each other or switch men. The NFL is also really bad about calling pick plays, so we should be running those as well.
Yup, those are the 'bunch','mesh' concepts I mentioned earlier. Some passing games feature those routes and concepts against Cover-1/man defenses.
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We have to do whatever we can to get that WR open quicker to allow Cody to float it a little before second level defenders can react.
Agreed. And these routes/concepts are in Kessler's wheelhouse. His short accuracy good and he's been very accurate against pressure...number 2 behind Brady in fact.
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I don't mind us playing Cody,
I'm indifferent to Cody. I like his toughness, accuracy and command of the offense he showed prior to the last couple games. I certainly like him better then McCown, I thought Cody would have given you guys a better chance to win vs the Jets.
I started to notice those comeback routes a lot when McCown started the most recent game and came in as a backup the last.
Pryor was running a lot of comeback routes. I think the difference is that McCown has more experienced, and more anticipation of those routes coming open.
Cody doesn't seem to trust his eyes or anticipation enough, IMO.
He only wants to throw to wide open WR. That's why I said it doesn't matter much of what Hue is calling, Cody doesn't want to throw in tight windows, and he's certainly not gonna do that down the field.
So while you mentioned different ways to beat the coverage, it comes down to execution.
This is the drawback of wanting a high percentage QB. We ended up running into the same problem with McCoy. A QB where you're reliant on ten yard or shorter routes.
There's a whole lot of problems with the QB position before we can truly place blame on the play calling.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
You wanna spin BS, go ahead.........but, that is all it is. BS! Hue ain't the problem. And I will fight guys like you who will only add to the ignorant rhetoric of him being fired.
You took a discussion about Cover-1 and the passing game and turned into a Hue is the problem/Hue being fired agenda rant.
Those comeback routes have been a staple of the passing game regardless of QB. Cody has been feasting on comeback routes.
Cody was playing legitimately good football and had a couple of bad games of late. I don't think its fair to say it doesn't matter what plays are called because Cody won't throw it. I don't think that's an accurate of assessment of Cody prior to the past couple of games.
Anyhow its going to be interesting watching which routes Cody is throwing on Sunday and going forward.
I can't say that Cody is playing good---or bad. He is what he is. A weak armed qb that can't challenge the defense, but is a smart guy w/some guts. Functional back-up that is worth keeping, UNLESS the love affair from the media and fan base gets coaches fired.
Are you telling me you have not noticed we were first in the league in rushing BEFORE the NE game and have now slipped to 22nd? Why is that? Did Crow suddenly start sucking? Come on, ed.......
I find it very interesting that we were first in the league in rushing up until the NE game. Which just happens to be the same game we lost Bitiono for the season.
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
Wow. Some of what I have been saying. Tweak it and change up some of the route combinations. We have gouged some nice yardage using the middle of the field and then quit. Hurt them to force a defensive adjustment. Go back to what works later. Hue doesn't seem to stick with some things and he doesn't go back to some successful things. He also gets odd inside the 20. This article helped me see some of the chess match. Great post! Thankee.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
We agree totally except the part about everyone being in man and nobody available to jump the shallow crossers.
Most NFL defenses won't run a pure defense. A lot will run cover 1 man and keep the LB's in zone because they don't want them having to run the width of the field. Some will even float DE out in a zone to have an extra defender. Even if it is a strict man defense though, the passing lanes in the shallow area are narrow enough for a LB to leave his man as the QB starts his throwing motion and break in front of the other WR.
Thoughts you are correct in how D are playing us. Hue? or limited playbook due to rookie who was not suppose to take a rep this season?
Are Hue's hands tied to utilize his prowess as a Offensive guru?
I think to me evidence of this was him sitting Kessler down in the 3rd quarter after one 3 n out. He put in McCown so that he can utilize his full playbook and the entire field of play...of course McCown had no game of his own to execute it.
Words like, Maybe I've been too hard on Kessler. Hue has a history and his history is that of a very very good game planner and Offense play caller.
Now you all know how important it was to have RG3 as our starter cause say what you will about RG3 he threw one heck of a good long ball. Patriots??? heck for about 4-5 years that has been the game plan of everyone we have faced...cram the box, stop our run and kill our QB...downs 1 n 2 let the QB beat them...Over the years we would have separation Deep but no QB to convert...How many times we had a guy deep and Hoyer would under throw...McCown? Same or actually McCown I see no touch on his long balls.
Heck the best we had was Manziel and he was a stand up DRUNK!
ed...that has been our BANE for several years now. Maybe the flavor has changed from one team or another but the only team I have seen over the years not to utilize that in some shape or form has been the Bengals...not this season so far but in the past few they were the only ones I would see playing us 7 in the box.
We never will know but I think RG3 with us all season we would be around or over .500 cause our running game would have been able to take hold if we connected on our Long Passes stretching the field Vertical.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
We agree totally except the part about everyone being in man and nobody available to jump the shallow crossers.
Most NFL defenses won't run a pure defense. A lot will run cover 1 man and keep the LB's in zone because they don't want them having to run the width of the field. Some will even float DE out in a zone to have an extra defender. Even if it is a strict man defense though, the passing lanes in the shallow area are narrow enough for a LB to leave his man as the QB starts his throwing motion and break in front of the other WR.
I agree and perhaps we are splitting hairs. I agree NFL defenses don't run a pure defense. I am not saying that the Browns exclusively see Cover-1 man free. I'm talking about a fairly specific defense that I've seen played against this team repeatedly.
One of the weaknesses of man coverage is to drag routes/shallow crossers. Will defenses sometimes mix it up? Sure. They might man up and drop someone is zone.
But, is that reason enough not to run those routes against a Cover-1 man? Not for me.
[color:#FFCC33]Thoughts you are correct in how D are playing us. Hue? or limited playbook due to rookie who was not suppose to take a rep this season?
Are Hue's hands tied to utilize his prowess as a Offensive guru?
I hear yah and you're making valid points. In this thread though I was trying to fine focus specifically on Cover-1 man free and the offense's response to that specific defense.
no crossing routes/shallow cross in the first half
How do you know this? Are you getting coaches' tapes? Because, we don't get to see the route tree on most plays. We saw a lot of Cody holding the ball, cocking, and then not pulling the trigger. Making the assumption that we never ran the routes just because Cody didn't make the throws is not sound thinking.
The WR on the right sideline has a touchdown if Cody pulls the trigger like right when this picture is taken. The left sideline is about a fraction of a second away from being one as well.
to build an 8 man/strong box and played stout against run and brought pressure. Other teams have copied the scheme which renders the run game ineffective and underused as well as challenges the passing game with press man on the WRs to deny the quick completion while pressuring the QB.
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