DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Allowing school assignments to be turned in late

It didnt used to be this way. When I was a kid you turned it on time or you failed. Kids these days are pampered and not ready for the real world.

quote above by arch:

"My son - I absolutely never had to even tell him to do homework. He'd come home from school and do it."

That's just sick.

Kid will just turn out to be some loser doctor, or lawyer, or cpa, or engineer.

I remember one of my U of Akron classes..

A bunch of people were late for a certain assignment, and asked for an extension..

The teacher said, well what about the people that turned it in on time?

One kid said "Give them some bonus points"

Bonus points.. for turning it in on time..

columbus your son sounds almost exactly like mine and I'm not sure I can tell you how to fix it because we never did get it fixed.. but I can tell you the progression that it took.. he went from turning a lot of stuff in a few days late.. a few days became a week.. became two weeks.. until finally it became end of grading period try to cram in as much as he needed. Keeping in mind that all along, he was acing tests so he knew he wasn't going to fail the class... Then we would get to about 8-10 days from the end of the grading period and the e-mail would come from every teacher... "This is the last chance to turn in late assignments".. and he would have about 10 assignments in every class and about 2 days to do them so most of them never got doen.. at some point he stopped caring about the As and Bs and just wanted to pass.. I was depressed.. I had no idea where this total lack of motivation came from to get the grades to go to college.... As he progressed through high school, the subjects became harder, he couldn't ace tests any more without doing homework, his grades continued to drop... We literally found out 48 hours before his high school graduation that he was actually going to be able to graduate, he cut it that close.

What I wish I had done was come down hard early.. we let it go because the school let it go for a long time and his habits were developed that were horrible and we just never figured out how to get it turned back around... so even if it is just a few days for most assignments, do something now... it will be hard to explain as to why the school allows it but you won't... but you have to do something to turn the tide right now.

J/C

Read a ton in this thread. It's something I deal with on a yearly basis.

I teach in a community where I'm the minority. English exists as a second language to all my students. Many of them deal with an inordinate amount of social strife from family, friends, drugs, isolation, fear of the unknown, mistrust of outsiders due to an historical cultural trauma, and much much more.

Survival tends to get put above anything else, and sometimes survival doesn't necessarily mean turn schoolwork in on time. Survival could be "How do I escape this small house where my parent(s)/sibling(s) don't get beat on by other parent(s)/sibling(s). How can I avoid falling victim to attacks on me by relatives and/or friends?" plus a bunch of other mindsets that I can't even share.

I say all this to show I try and take into account the stress level of my students. My purpose is to help them discover their innate talents, but to also push them beyond what they think they're capable of. However, how do I do that, but also walk the fine line of not setting them off with more stress.

It's a fine line to walk, and many of us struggle with finding the nice happy medium.

Not sure I've helped much, Columbus; just sharing the perspective of the teacher out in the isolated frozen tundra on the coast of the Bering Sea.

Sidenote: Sorry you have to deal with that 60% rule, Vers. That sounds awful. However, I think you're reaching with that SEC comment. Don't let your dislike for a sporting conference taint your views of students.

Man no kidding...my youngest would sit at the desk at home do his work...Id check it or the wife would...he would then go to school and put it in his locker and leave it.

Then we would get e-mail from the teachers saying hey, dumb dumb didnt turn in his work and the grades are suffering do to it. Then he would come home that day and we are like WTH Daniel and he would go oh its in the locker...

The school would let him turn in weeks of work and give him credit...and I tried hard to make them stop accepting his laziness, weirdness whatever u want to call it..nope full credit to bring his grade to a D-. And these same kind of habits have carried over to his adult life..its sad to watch.


I thank God everyday for my older boy...straight A's motivated and wants to learn...he is doing great in college also.

Thanks for the great responses everyone! Some very thought provoking and insightful comments.

I talked with my son last night and was also able to convince his mother that we need to start taking these matters into our own hands. He started off at the beginning of the year using a calendar/planner to write his homework down in - he won't use his iPad to do this for some reason (the school provides each student with an iPad mini), but the paper planner was working. I found out yesterday that he has stopped using it and he promised to start writing assignments in it again this week. We'll see how that goes.

We spoke to him about the importance of getting things done on time - that at some point in his life people will rely on him to be doing so and that he will rely on others to do the same. As was stated, it is difficult to explain why it matters to mom and dad when it doesn't matter as a part of his overall grade.

We tried to put some perspective on it by asking him how many clients he thought I would have if I didn't deliver my work on time or how the events that his mother plans would go if everything wasn't prepared and ready the day of the event. He seemed to understand, we'll see. Next up will be loss of electronics - first and foremost the iPhone.

As a retired elementary educator, and a parent of a ninth grade ADHD son, I can appreciate this policy. This offers the opportunity for completion for a grade and recognition of work done.

There are varied reasons for turning in work late and I feel all should be given fair consideration.

So happy to hear her ten week achievement! She and your grandson are fortunate to have you in her life.

Your commentary is a perfect of example of how our experiences shape our thoughts and opinions. Everything is relative......good luck!! Prayers up!

I agree there are reasons, but consistent late assignments are not acceptable - especially assignments that are weeks late. That is my biggest concern. Late a few times, sure, I understand (I really actually don't, but that is the world we live in now so I'll accept it) - but consistently, which is what my son is doing, is very concerning.

The policy is my school was no retention. Their argument was to suggest that research "shows" that retention is ineffective. I always maintained it was imperative to look at each individual situation and evaluate with an open mind.

We would have team meetings etc. but the understanding was that the outcome would be the same....no retention for any reason.

We had forms to evaluate the possibility of a successful retention but the results had little, if any, impact.

Education is not currently in the finest hour.

As far as timeliness, responsibility, promptness: Toss this little nugget at your son, concerning the "real" world.

3 or 4 years ago we decided it was time to get our house sided (tear off the cedar siding and replace with vinyl) AND roofed.

Called guy that had done some work for us previously. He came out, measured everything, blah blah blah, and said he'd get back to us in a week or 2.

2 months went by, and I had heard nothing. So I called another contractor. He came out, checked everything, and within 4 days he gave us the numbers. It was over $30,000. Got one other price, just to compare.

Hired the guy. They started about 4 weeks later, had everything done in about 10 days.

Saw the first guy about a month after that. He said "hey, I have some numbers for you." I said, well, it's already done.

Because of his lack of promptness, timeliness, he lost a $30,000 job. And it's not like he was overly busy.

arch:

Sounds like you're lucky that first guy "disqualified himself".

We sometimes think other people are like us - responsible, considerate, competent to do their work satisfactorily (or not finish until it is).

PA, I have a question for you. My son is in ninth grade. He is highly capable. He is in advanced math(algebra) and is in his third year of Spanish. He has been diagnosed with ADHD and executive function disorder. Executive functions are similar to the conductor of an orchestra. If the conductor does not function, the musicians falter as well.

My son has had a 504 plan since eighth grade. It states that teachers will contact us within 24 hours of a missing assignment. This strategy was suggested by the school psychologist. It seems to work as teachers e mail me, I e mail my son and he either makes the time to complete the work or brings it home to complete.

He struggles greatly with organizational skills and planning and he always has.

Psychologist and experts disagree whether all ADHD children have EFD as well. The verdict is out. Long term rubrics with various due dates are a nightmare for him.

He frequently turns assignments in late and receives full credit. I am not sure how I feel about this and the implications for his future.

My question is, as a ninth grade educator, how would you feel about this? Can you give me a general sense about how your co workers would feel about this?

I have discovered that there is a general lack of knowledge/awareness among educators regarding executive functions. I have done a great amount of research and provided the school with literature for those interested.

Thank you for suggestions or thoughts.

My expertise is in elementary, particularly early childhood. This high school thing has been difficult!

there may be perfectly legitimate extenuating circumstances as to why exceptions need to be made.. unfortunately we live in a one-size fits all world...

I don't necessarily agree with the one-size fits all statement. I have students that come to me all the time with legitimate reasons as to why their assignment/project/essay was not completed by the due date. I assess what they are saying, sometimes I will call home to verify their story, and determine if their reason is worth an extra day to complete the work. The majority of the time I don't grant the extra day, but sometimes there are reasons that are worthy of extended time.

Has he ever been involved with music?

About 15 years ago, I had a student (Dani) who was struggling in school. She began private lessons with me, and I couldn't keep her in her seat. She'd play 4 or 5 measures perfectly, then play a series of notes that seemed random as hell.

One day, I compared the 'random' notes to what was on the page, and got hit with a revelation: right notes/wrong order. I asked Dana (Mom) if Dani had ever been tested for dyslexia. She was floored when I asked, because I was the first person to ever even consider it the possibility. 2 weeks later, I opened the door for Dani's lesson, and Dana flew into my arms. I can still feel that hug of gratitude today. Turns out, Dani had both dyslexia AND ADHD. "Thank you, thank you, thank you... we now now have a name for what she has... and can do something about it." Dani was in 8th grade at the time. She studied from me until HS graduation, making steady progress. Left Maumee Valley Country Day with a 3.0+ GPA, and enrolled at Lourdes College the next fall.

One of the proudest moments of my life as an educator.

It's been documented that studying an instrument directly effects almost all the issues you mentioned. My guess is that EFD might be helped by the organizational skills required to practice scales and prepare for scheduled weekly lessons.

Just putting it out there. I wish you well.

Clem

I respect that and I assume school systems are different all over the place... the ones that I'm familiar with seem to be trending toward the lowest common denominator... take the poorest students and what it takes to get them through and set the standard there for turning in work...

Research equity vs equality in education and it will tell you the direction of things.

just skimming through this thread...

You can't ever give a student below 60% for an assignment? Even if there is no effort/everything is wrong, he gets 60%? If he doesn't turn anything in (or turns in a blank paper), he gets 60%?

Clem yes! My son is an incredible musician. Last summer he was invited to try out for the Erie Jr. Philharmonic. He is the Scout bugler, goes to county band, district band and, this year, he will go to regionals. He plays in the jazz band and has had several solos. He plays in our church ensembles as well and plays Taps each year at our Memorial Day parade.

He plays the trumpet, baritone, french horn and key board.

I am thankful every day for his musical gifts because, without them, I think his school experience could be much more detrimental to his future.

He is working hard but school is just difficult for him and always has been.

These teacher/coach individuals are less willing than others to assist him. I have an issue with this. The excuse given to parents is "the basketball coach is too busy to keep parents up to date in Science because he has coaching responsibilities as well". To this I say, sorry, do your job.

At 6 foot 1 in ninth grade, my son plays volleyball, not basketball and this individual does not like that. Unfortunate for my son.

Correct.

Here is an interesting example:

The Science department at my previous school did a yearly Science Fair project. They would bring in the parents and kids in August to introduce the project. They got them to come to the school by feeding them. LOL

Anyway, there was a rubric and the kids would have to meet benchmarks along the way to the completion of the project, which was the second week of January. The entire project was worth an extraordinary amount of points.

Each year, several kids would never turn in their benchmark work and either turn in nothing or almost nothing in January. Keep in mind, they got the project in August.

Well, they got 60 percent on each of the benchmark scores and 60 percent on the final project. Amazing, huh?

That's awesome.. But I'm sure nobody's self-esteem was harmed in the failing to do that project.

I have a question. When I was a kid, a 60% was an F.

I seem to recall it went like this:

93-100% A
84-92% B
75-83% C
66-74% D
65% and below F


Has that changed? Is 60% a passing grade now?

Grading scales are slightly different now... I had a mix even when I was going to school. Maybe it was college where it switched to this for me.

90+ A
80-89 B
70-79 C
60-69 D
59- F

Lol, that is hilarious.

I don't condone this behavior now but here is what the teenage version of me would have done:

- Avoid all homework
- Avoid all major projects especially
- Don't study for any tests
- Skip class the maximum allowed days (saving some until the end, so legitimate sick days wouldn't put me over)

Since 60s don't tank a grade to anywhere near the extent that 0s do, I'm pretty sure I'd be able to cruise to a C with no effort whatsoever. Just gotta perform adequately on some tests and maybe get a decent grade on a group project or something. Again that wouldn't be acceptable to me now, but 14 year old me would have been thrilled with that.

I'm equally fascinated and dumbfounded on how a school district (state?) could mess that up so badly.

Each school district sets their own grading scale. Within a state, most are similar, but that is not a set rule.

Here is the most popular grading scale in the schools that I have taught at:

93--100 = A

85--92 = B

77--84 = C

70--76 = D

69 or less = F

In our teacher handbook, one of the district's reasons for the 60% rule was an F is an F. LOL, that is not really true, because letter grades on individual assignments have no bearing on the final grade. It's points accumulated to total possible points.

I really did get in big trouble for comparing the 60% rule to two things:

1. Welfare. I said you are teaching kids that you can get something by doing absolutely nothing. My heart was in the right place, but that didn't go over too well w/the district.

2. It's like communism or socialism. I was real big on getting my students to work hard. It took time, but almost every single student I had ended up working hard and their parents loved me for it. I would have one or two [at most] who did not work hard each year. Once I got the kids to understand the importance/rewards of working hard, I would ask them questions like "How many of you would like a C on a test/assignment/project no matter what you did?

I would say that you don't have to do anything and you can still earn a C. One kid might ask.......you mean I don't have to even turn in the project or not get any questions right on a test and I could get a C? I would say yes and then would add.........Of course, you could get 100% on a test or {and I would hold up an assignment where a kid went above and beyond the requirements] and say you would get a C even for this type of effort.

Every single time, the kids would start complaining. They said, "That's not fair. I want to be get an A if I do well." And BAM! I knew I had them. These kids were going to succeed.

I would often then go into the story why the USSR and communism failed so miserably. Where is the motivation to strive to succeed? I hate aspects of capitalism, but there are parts that I get.

I think that enabling, excuses, and entitlement are vulgar words that are actually retarding the growth of our socioeconomic challenged students. I believe the intent is good for many who champion those things, but I wonder if others are actually using it to hold the poor down. Why work when you can get something for nothing? Compound that by having that repeated for generations. You grow up w/it. What's your motivation to really succeed in life? It's an opiate.

I have been trying to start a program to help disadvantaged youths in my community. A lot of people talk big, but when it comes to funding.........forget about it.

Sorry for the rant.........but, I really think we are doing our youths a huge disservice by not trying to motivate them to thrive and instead, allowing them to settle for a life of subsistence.

I think you wouldn't have gotten into trouble if you would've shown more tact. Breaking out welfare arguments, in a place I assume is predominantly low income, and socialism/communism comparisons never go well.

Maybe a bit more tact could've gone better for you.

I wasn't trying to make the story about me and it doesn't surprise me that that is all you got of my message.

I could care less about getting into trouble. I care about what is best for my students. I do not like policies that will hinder their growth. If I got into trouble for that.........so be it!

It wasn't about me..........it what was about what is best for my kids. Not that you would understand such a thing.

Exactly how I feel

I read your earlier posts and I remember others you have written in the past. I think you are a good teacher. Keep on doing what you do, man!

No, I understand what you were hoping to do. You, like I, think that if a kid can't fail they'll learn nothing about life.

I just think your undoing in your arguments, that if you presented them as such, were welfare and communism/socialism comparisons. Probably could've helped if you cited the numerous studies that have been done on this topic, and many studies find the same concerns. What these studies, along with other respectable people, don't do is fire off comments about welfare and socialism/communism.

I'll bet your school never graduated any career symphonic musicians.
We actually NEED our knuckles to sell Bach, Beethoven and Brahms to the public.

Nuns are the #1 enemy of continuing Classical Music in America!

Empty halls on concert night?
-Blame Sister Mary Elephant.

Just to present a different side ......

Maybe they want to make sure that a normally conscientiously, but borderline student doesn't blow his entire year by messing up on one assignment, and turning nothing in.

Let's say that a kid had 6 assignments over the course of the year, and for some reason, negligent or other, fails to turn in his assignment. He gets a zero.

He is a C student overall. He gets, for the sake of simplicity, a 78 on every one of the other 5 assignments.

If he gets a 0, he then drops his grade average to a 65, which is a failing grade, and he has to repeat the grade. If he gets a 60, then his cumulative average grade rises to a 75. It drops him to a D, but does not fail him for one completely blown assignment.

Just a different way of looking at it.

We aren't allowed to fail any student for the year. The only grades that can fail students are first or second.

I think the 60% rule has a lot more to do w/being eligible for sports than anything else.

I was a good student, not perfect, I did a lot of "last minute" work, etc but I was an honor roll student, national honor society student, and graduated top 5 in my HS class. There were times where I missed something or was a day or two late. Because I was an otherwise good student, I was almost always able to negotiate something to allow it to be turned in late. I was not a habitual offender and all of my other grades were great. This was where teachers were allowed to use some discretion instead of applying the same rules to everybody. If I missed 4 assignments or all of my other work was half-assed, I would never have received the benefit of the doubt.

And if you miss an assignment that carries enough weight to take you from a C to an F, it must have been a major assignment and unless there was an emergency, there is no excuse for turning one of those in late...

That is a terrible example. Any teacher that assesses their students 6 times for an entire year probably shouldn't be teaching. It also doesn't take into account that there are 4 marking periods that all account for roughly 25% of the grade depending on if there is a final exam or not. I average between 18-25 graded per marking period. Each assignment makes up approximately 4-5% of the overall grade. For a "C" student to fail my class they would have to not turn in assignments on a semi-consistent basis.

How is it logical to anyone that an incomplete assignment is deserving of a 60%. That baffles me.

I know he said a year, I assumed he meant a grading period. And yes, for my middle schooler, she has at least 10-12 graded things per grading period with about half being homework, a few tests, then maybe a major assignment. and the grading is weighted. Missing one homework assignment would never move you an entire letter grade.. blowing off the major assignment might though.

I gave over 40 assignments per nine weeks. That is more than most teachers, but still.....

I want to add something here. I can't speak for all teachers, but man, most of us really, really want the kids to succeed. We don't want them to fail and we do everything in our power to make sure they succeed while also teaching academics and the importance of work ethic, responsibility, perseverance, etc...

I was always a very generous grader. Some teachers complained that I gave too many A's and B's. Well, I think that success breeds success. You just have to find the balance of promoting effort w/achievement.