DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What can we expect from DW?

And the physical talent is the difference. The performance is the difference. Some QB's can carry a team to victory. You listed three QB's that did that throughout their careers. You're comparing that to a QB who hasn't done anything close to that since 2020. Game managers can manage the game. Great QB's can will their team to victory if need be.


Three first round draft picks may land you that QB as well as two other difference makers on your team. The problem being after giving up three first round picks, three years later the Browns still have no idea if they found the answer at QB. And that's assuming the QB they drafted would have failed. We have the FACT that we still don't know if the browns have the answer at QB compared to your ASSUMPTION that the Browns would have failed to find one in the draft. That's the difference.

There is certainly a reasonable possibility that would be true. I certainly hope the light comes on and he is the QB he once was. We would all have cause to celebrate if that were to happen. But as of now we're all in limbo waiting to see how this plays out.

Pretty damned safe assumption...

Kenny Pickett
Desmond Ridder
Malik Willis
Matt Corral
Bailey Zappe
Sam Howell

Odd choice of QB's to try and dispel they wouldn't have succeeded drafting a QB that has performed as well as watson to this point considering....

Malik Willis was a third round pick.

Matt Corral was a third round pick.

Bailey Zappe was the 137th pick in 2022

Sam Howell was a fifth round lick.

Riddler was another 3rd round pick.

There is only one QB on your list that was drafted in round 1.

Exactly. Those were the QBs available to draft.

Did I miss somebody?

For me the bottom line is it was worth the risk. I wasn’t a big Watson fan when he was in Houston. I let a bunch of people talk me into the top 5 talk after we made the trade, and I bought into it briefly. I did love him in college because I like when college QBs play their best when the stakes are highest. But what I saw in the NFL was a QB that works best without structure. For his mythical 2020 season where the Texans won 4 or 5 games, I wasn’t all that impressed. When we played them that year I thought Baker was better.

But I understand the rationale that went into the trade. It hasn’t worked out and my opinion is it is unlikely to. But if he can just have some flashes the Browns can be one of the last teams standing…if they get good coaching and the team in general performs at its talent level.

Yes, you forgot to mention every first round QB other than Pickett the Browns might have managed to draft if they had those first round picks. And still, even after giving up all 3 of those 1st round draft picks we have no idea if watson will be the answer to the QB position moving forward. That's still very much up in the air at this point.

This’s a very good observation and when I look at some of his highlights from the 2020 season I see a QB who act more on instinct than on designed throws to receivers who follow pre-decided routes. Four seasons ago his foot work and acceleration was truly elite and in his best moments he reminded me of a running Lamar or a fleeing fast footed Pat Mahomes. (who searching for Hill or Kelcie) Deshaun

Watson is still fast but he seems to has lost a bit of his self confidence and athleticism.

There
were
no
other
QBs
to
draft.

Ah, but you assume the first-round picks lost because of the Watson trade would have been good?

I agree that physical attributes are important. The attribute most of us forget when evaluating quarterbacks is the mental side. In the end, it's a game. The objective is winning. What else can be more important?

Could have typed all that myself. Never bought the top 5 hype, used to argue with CFRS on here all the time about it (especially since he thought we should ship FOUR 1st round picks for him).

The rationale is simple when you weave it into the timeline. Baker turned into a spoiled brat, which led to "shopping". When we told him we were going to the store -- he flat-out quit. At that point we had no QB.


To restate the QBs available in the draft:

Kenny Pickett
Desmond Ridder
Malik Willis
Matt Corral
Bailey Zappe
Sam Howell

Here are the QBs that were available for sign or trade:

Deshaun Watson
Jacoby Brissett
Tyrod Taylor
Drew Lock
Teddy Bridgewater
Case Keenum
Marcus Mariota
Mitchell Trubisky
Carson Wentz
Jameis Winston
Matt Ryan
Russell Wilson


From an "expected talent going forward" standpoint, looks like the soundest of rationale. Jimmy rolled the dice with the three big price tags: The contract, the suspension and the baggage. One is long over, one has faded and one has been used as a clearinghouse by a salary cap wizard.

Watson's crappy performance and injuries so far has turned the 'deal' into complete boom or bust. If we win one it's a boom, if we don't it's a bust. But people acting like there was a smart, clear-cut alternative are talking out their azz.

I agree ..and even then I don't think it has hurt us to any significant degree. We can debate what we might have received, but there is no telling who we would have drafted.

In my mind, Watson accounts for one of the picks. We received a player for a pick. We then paid 2 bonus picks to be able to make that selection.

Was it a good trade? To this point I would say not. After this season? We'll see what happens.

Pit, quit acting like this is a capital investment on the fixed assets ledger. It isn't.

The Browns lost three first round draft picks. One in 2022, one in 2023 and the last one in 2024. The only QB's you listed were drafted in 2022. This isn't complicated.

2023....

C.J. Stroud
Anthony Richardson
Will Levis

2024.....

Drake Maye
Michael Penix Jr
J.J. McCarthy
Bo Nix

And those aren't even all of the first round QB's selected in those drafts.

The only way to do that is to pretend that the NFL isn't a corporation and as such expects a return on their investment. I would have to pretend that this is the only corporation in which accountability doesn't matter. I would have to pretend that Haslam and those in the FO treat this corporation more as fans than businessmen. I'm not willing to climb down that rabbit hole with you.

The only thing I'm looking at is the fact there were three picks that gave them an opportunity to draft a QB as well as other top tier talent with. In your world they would have to have blown all three picks and not have made the team any better with those picks. Looking at the results this far we aren't any better off to date by watson being here than before he got here. It was Flacco who they signed off the couch that led this team to the playoffs last year.


The ability to quickly process information combined with physical attributes and skill is what makes a QB. Then you have his ability to lead men. That infectious way they can will their teams to win. When you have that you will win through your QB. I haven't seen any of that from watson so far.

That's it in a nut shell - the cost was a little higher and depending on the narrative of the day those other picks we gave up can be argued to be where teams pick up the majority of their players, so I wouldn't disregard them completely. ... but essentially DW was one of the picks. Was it a good trade? not at this point - but let's wait to see year 3.

Sweet. So all we needed was a time machine.

Looking forward to our first game. I don't like Dallas, never did, and hope we win convincingly. That and we'll see how DW plays so all this speculating can be put to sleep, hopefully.

I don't think you can say that losing Draft Picks didn't hurt us. You'd have to go back to each of the last three drafts and look at what was available at our pick. Even then it's all just guess work but you can't say it didn't hurt.

Pitt, you have one blown first-round pick. The failed QB pick. The second QB taken in the overcome your first mistake. In the end, it is two blown picks. The Browns spent 3 first-round picks to get Watson.

In the grand scheme of things and in that three-year timeframe, you would waste years seeing if the first QB taken would work. Once you decide he won't work, you pick a second QB. You have another two or three years to determine if you have success.

Drafting QBs is an expensive undertaking.

Is there a better way or a standard way of drafting a QB? I say no.

You can't say it did. We did manage to come out of those drafts with some good players is my only point.

I don't look at drafts or drafted players where we drafted them. It's about what you end up with. Could it have been better?

Maybe, maybe not.

YES. This. Time is the most precious commodity. Especially when you're working within a window.

As I said, and I'll repeat... Baker was done. We had players to retain, players to attract, we wanted to keep a winning mentality and not lose momentum. Are there really those that think "hey guys, we're gonna go with Gardner Minshew this year, and then hopefully there will be a good QB in the draft next year... we'll try to get him up to speed a.s.a.p. so you don't waste any more of your career here" was the right approach?

I am not, was not and maybe will never be in love with Watson the person, Watson the player or the Watson contract... but I still like it better than most of the alternatives. Even after all of this failure.

Your final conclusion is very understandable but from a objective perspective it's a terrible way to run an organization where the owners/FO have to pay their way out of one bad decision after another.

What kind of owner/FO make a decision that they know will divide a substantial part of the fan base and give the organization negative publicity?

The long term negative consequences is so much more than just losing draft picks and paying too much. First and foremost such a move cement the stigma about "the Browns being the Browns".
From a neutral players perspective it's not attractive to join a controverial organization and this is one of the reasons many top players are hesitant to Cleveland if they have other choices.

Or they could have signed Baker, kept the draft picks and be further ahead than they are now.

Not really a Baker lover, but Watson has not been better than Baker to date.

Just the facts, and the lost draft choices to date weigh more to signing Baker because of the Draft choices.

That really doesn't matter. That is short term thinking. People get over things. People quickly get over things when you put out a winning team. It's been a couple years, what great divide are you seeing now? I'm not seeing it. Only that DW needs to play to his potential. Will it be brought up every so often? Sure, but all most of what you hear is a great culture and positive things about the team.

Besides, throwing DW out of the loop, this team has some outstanding not just players but people: Chubb, Njoku, Bitonio, Myles, just to name a few.


I disagree, a neutral player wants to get paid and a winning environment/Super Bowl contender on average. The Browns are one team that will definitely pay their players and FAs, hence why we have outspent the rest of the league. They also see a good/great coaching staff and the talent on our team. A good percentage of players would take that in a heartbeat. You're a top DE, tell me you why you wouldn't want to play the opposite side from Myles, same goes with DT. Can say the same with each position group...Opposite of Ward, opposite of JOK, and so forth.

The Browns have just a good of a chance to get any player they want as any other team out there.

Because of the impact he had in turning around a chronically bad and losing Browns team - I'll always be a little bit of a Baker fan. With that said - his time in the CLE was 100% done - a combination of his own immaturity and arrogance while he was injured coupled with he and Stefanski completely losing trust in each other... If the relationship was salvageable before the Pittsburgh game, it was not so after that game. There were other free agent QBs available that off season, none of whom were what people like to call franchise QB's - even if some of them have since performed at similar levels to BM and DW for other teams. We are where we are - just got to hope DW returns to as close as possible to his best HOU form and does it for a sustained/full season.... we'd win a lot of games.

No. These are the options between where we are now and where we could be now. In at least some of those cases we would be better off than the results we have seen so far. As of now we are in a very unsure situation moving forward. So far we have a lot of top flight draft capital gone and nothing of major value to show for it. I'm not sure what a time machine has to do with a reality check.

Let's not pretend there weren't a lot of unhappy fans at the time the trade was made. They certainly don't need a time machine.

Cool. So you think we should have found a second-rate QB and stood pat waiting for the right QB in the draft. It's all good. Everybody has an opinion.

What the hell does that even mean?


How can you say that would have ever happened? I'm not saying it would have turned out better but there were opportunities out there that would have been. Can you tell me how the results we are looking at currently are any better results than what you described above? Here we are going into the third season since watson was signed and we still haven't been able to " determine if you have success."


It appears their decision to sign watson to end up with the same results you have described is also an expensive undertaking. Even far more than drafting one.


The Browns didn't draft watson.

My guess is that if watson had been drafted, then suspended for 11 games in his first season, then could only play less than half a season in his second year, the Browns might be looking for a new QB by now. But they went all in on watson and have no choice but to stick with him.

I think this was a horribly failed experiment to this point. And looking at the current results, standing pat for a season may have paid the highest dividends. In some cases it really is true that patience is a virtue. It's a far better option than making a huge mistake.

At the same time he was facing 24 sexual assault allegations and for some reason, even before those allegations came to light, he did not even play for the Texans in 2021 and they, after actually knowing the player as well as they did deemed it the best choice to get rid of him.

I'm not saying there weren't reasons to sign him, but let's not pretend there weren't clear red flags that may have indicated they shouldn't have. None of this is as cut and dry as some people wish to make it sound.

And I think if one looks where they are now at the QB position verses where the Browns are, it was their decision and patience that has paid off to this point.

All I am saying is good luck drafting a quarterback thinking it is the better option. Yep, DW had off-field issues. It was the reason he became available.

You are delusional if you don't think it'll take less than 3 years to determine if the QB drafted is a bust or your franchise QB. If he is a bust, you need to draft another QB. In four or five years, you would need to use 2 first-round picks. I'm unsure where the difficulty is in understanding my point. If you bust drafting a QB, which is highly probable, it sets you back several years. I thought the Browns proved that when they drafted Baker. Regardless of where you stand with Baker, the Browns considered it a bust and moved on.

DW can be an average QB. He may not be worth the salary, but at least you can win games. Flacco proved it average wins games.

Hard to argue with that Pit. Although comparing "where they are now" with both teams is ignoring the fact that they had no choice -- Watson was leaving regardless.

I think we are going to agree to disagree!

Week 1, kids. This thread is boring now, think straight and get serious. 😂

Hello 2024 NFL season.

Bake is gone, the picks are gone, it’s Haslam’s money, Watson is here. We’re trucking with him until further notice and I hope we aren’t complaining about the same things next September.
We need Watson to play well.

I disagree. : )

The Texans figured it out in one year.

You know, I've heard both sides of that story and I'm not sure which one was correct. Some stories tell you that it was the Texans who wanted to wash their hands of watson. watson's side of the story is that he didn't want to be there because of "racism" and not having a voice in selecting the new HC. But if I remember correctly watson didn't say anything about that until after he wasn't playing and not before. So I suppose it all depends on which story one chooses to believe.

But yeah, he was leaving. The only question remaining is which side made that decision.