DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns' new regime gets its first crack at QB debate: So what else is new?

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Grossi is actually worse than TOAD what a bozo he is...(Grossi not Toad) He acts as if NFL teams will make a board of 400 prospects like the Draft NIKS do

So his logic is that Quinn Sucks cause even with the close Weiss connection and his glowing report the Pats didn't have him high on their board. So why would McDaniels do so now...I'm Grossi and I'm so Brilliant.

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the second excerpt, from which you quoted, was from mike lombardi, not grossi. grossi only linked to it. i doubt lombardi is much of a bozo.

further, i have to believe that all teams make "boards" because that's how they know which is the best player available in their picks. which is also why, after every draft, teams discussing the draft mention their boards. i think there's some misconception that, if a team appears set at one position, they no longer look at that position, which has to be false. that's just bad preparation and of all the teams, i'd expect the pats to do their proper diligence on every possible player. it's part of why they're so good.

Regardless of whom the QB is, it makes absolutely no sense monetarily why you would draft a QB in the first round when you already have a Pro-Bowl QB, and one of the best in the league, signed long-term.

Accoding to your logic, if somehow Mark Sanchez is still on the board when the Colts pick comes up they should take him

i had a long response but decided to remove it because it derails this thread.

the point is than an nfl team should be responsible to review each prospect for a wholistic view, so they are prepared if a supposed "top talent" falls to them in some way. that, in no way, insinuates that if a top qb prospect falls to the pats or the colts, that they would draft it. merely, that they should be prepared so that, if that were to happen, they can MAXIMIZE their opportunity. whether or not you believe that, you can take that up in the draft section of this forum as it does not pertain to the subject at hand.

simply put, lombardi is saying the pats did not view quinn as highly as weiss endorsed and focusing on whether or not they have an actual "draft board" as an argument against it is silly.

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So are you convinced that BQ is the new regime's guy because of evidence or because of your own personal view?

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Well seeing as how the new regime is about as tight lipped as a whales ass is water tight how could I possibly have any evidence? ... these guys have said squadoosh about EVERYTHING .. (and I love that by the way .. ) ..

it is also not based solely on my personal opinion of my boy .. just cause I believe sumptin does not mean Jeannie and Daboll believe it ... HOWEVER ... as usual U can learn alot from the past .. and in this regard U need to look at the history of 3 entities ...

1. Jeannie and Daboll ... there recent history is in NY .. they inherieted Pennington and seemed fine with him as they never tried to move him or pick up a FA QB to try and replace him until Brett became available .. and we all know what type of QB Chad is ... smart, accurate with not much of an arm ...

in there first draft they passed on Lienart and Cutler with the #4 pick .. and then they chose to draft Kellen Clemens in rnd 2 .. his scouting report points to a Pennington clone with not as much accuracy but a slightly stronger arm ... IE: .. he was in ths same mold ... smart and accurate and not much of a deep ball ..

couple that with what they were both exposed to at NE and it becomes very clear they are comfie with a short, ball control type O that has a SMART and ACCURATE QB over the type of O the strong armed type guys will run ..

that CLEARLY points to a BQ type O ... CLEARLY ...

DA's history ... I'm not going to spend alot of time on this one .. its been rehashed a million times .. we all know he does not fit the type of O that Jeannie and Daboll are the most comfie with .. thats not even remotely close to debatable ..

3. BQ's history ... he has pretty much ZERO HISTORY in this league .. hes played less than 3 games .. hardly enough to prove anything either way .. the history he does have is in college .. that history shows a QB that is SMART and ACCURATE and he can make all the throws ... thats what i saw with my OWN TWO EYES and many many many pundits agree with me .. INCLUDING CHARLIE WIES ...

he also happend to run a Charlie Wies O in college ... and Daboll worked with Charlie at NE and then with Brain Shottenhiemer with the Jets ... Brian was at SD before the Jets .. working with Brees and Rivers .. and he ran an O best suited for a SMART and ACCURATE QB ... his O's like Charlie's rely on multiple formations and a QB capable of making very quick decisions ..

so BQ has worked in and mastered a system that is almost a lock to look alot like ours ..

and guys like Lombardi (who i respect alot ... ) can crow all they like about Wies having very little to no influence on these guys .. well thats JUST STUPID ... why would u not listen to Wies on QB's .. WHY?? every one hes been involved with for over 20 years has done pretty dam good ..

plus .. now u have the Jeannie/RAC connection ... Jeannie respects RAC and has said how much he values his input ... and RAC had all ready named BQ the starter for 09 ..

So in summary U have lots of stuff that points to BQ being the man .. maybe some of what i said does not come into play .. but there is AN AWFUL LOT OF SIGNS POINTING TO BQ being the man ..

and theres more ... *L* .. the biggest things going against BQ are all pretty much eminating from one thing .. the SILENCE IN BEREA .. heres a sample list of what we've heard from un named sources and Mr. Lombardi ..

before i do that .. lets cover the one thing we actually have heard .. Jeannie and Coke hve said there will be a QB comp ..

well to me that is nuttin more than posturing to try and drive up DA's trade value ... and if we can't dump him (as he does have some value to us) then they just do not want to hand BQ the job .. why would they do that?? .. it makes no sense what so ever ..

now onto the un named sources and rumors that some are reporting even though this is ONE TIGHT ASS TEAM TO GET ANY INFO OUT OF ..

there not enamored with BQ ... really .. and that would be based on what??? his 3 games ... his practice tape .. *LOL* .. please ..

it certainly can't be his work ethic or willingness to accept teaching or his inability to pick up the new O ...

and it certainly can't be what RAC or Shirer or Wies have said about him ..

so exactly where would this info be coming from .. it makes NO SENSE what so ever ...

now add to that .. guys like Lombardi are saying we may pick Sanchez at 5 ..

1. well again .. WHERE IS THAT COMING FROM .. the tight ass org. that kept the KW trade a secret up till the morning of the deal .. and i mean NOT A WHIFF .... but yet this is getting out ... *L* ..

plus lets just say that were true .... well that means that BQ is gonzo ... correct?? .. so we let it leak that we do not like BQ and in the next breath these same folks are saying we may take Sanchez .. DOES THAT FIT AT ALL???? ... *LOL* ... come on people .. THINK FOR A SECOND ...

what there saying is that this tight ass group is "not enamored" with BQ there fore decreasing his trade value .. and then there turning around and saying we may make a move that would lead us to trade BQ ... Ya .. thats pretty intellignet .. LETS DECREASE HIS TRADE VALUE AND THENN TRY AND TRADE HIM ..

then theres the Cutler trade ... I have NO CLUE WHAT HAPPEND there .. all we know for sure is what jeannie said ..

We were not involved in 3 way trade talks .. that was reported the day after ... then a few days after i saw mary kay say that Jeannie said we were not involved in ANY TRADE TALKS with denver ..

at the end of the day .... we may have been involved in 3 way trade talks (i doubt it .. cause it makes no sense .. that would have een a hard ass thing to do with the caliber of players and the # of draft picks involved .. ) ..

we may have been involved directly in talks with denver and no third team ... or we may have not had any trade talks with Denver (i doubt that also .. as i would guess if we did not cal them they would have prolly called us IF the reports that they wanted BQ were true .. and thats a BIG IF ..) ...

we just don't know what happend here .. I do not neccessarily believe Jeannie and what he says cause he would have a reason to deny talks weather he was in them or not ...

and the only reason the Cutler talks are relevant .. is cause lots of folks are taking the fact we MAY HAVE been involved in talks with Denver as a sign that BQ is indeed on the block .. and thats HORSE CRAP ... there is not many QB's in the league that would not be on the block if they could get Cutler in return .. so using that as a SPRING BOARD is just WRONG!!! ...

anyhow .. there u have it .. its part my opinion and part the history of the coaches and players involved ...

anything else?? ... *L* ..

Now that was the most sensible breakdown of the whole mess.

Outside of the entertainment value the 4 page pissing contest could have been avoided .

I'll wait for Toads and Eo's resonse before declaring you the winner.

"the second excerpt, from which you quoted, was from mike lombardi, not grossi. grossi only linked to it. i doubt lombardi is much of a bozo."

1. Grossi referred to it as PROOF that Quinn Sucks. So he concurs.

Lombardi is pretty good as they come but guess what - he's been out of the loop for quite some time now and every year out of the loop becomes a BOZO like all the rest

He ain't no prophet. And where BQ is concerned he hated BQ (for whatever reason cause more than any other QB I've seen him evaluate - maybe its a ND thing???) from day one prior to the draft. Telling anyone and everyone he stunk.

He still maintains that opinion. Fine - so does that make him right? Just remember we are talking about somebody involved with taking Tommy Vardell as the big thing - and that was when he was in the loop? lol Actually don't know for sure if he was involved then just hoping I'm right

My point is he ain't no PROPHET who has to be right 100% of the time. He has never, ever said a kind word about BQ - I don't see why he would now.

But I don't care if the Dahli Lahma said it.... If the proof in the pudding is that NE didn't have BQ high on the board. I don't care if its Grossi, Lombardi or even somebody great like Bill Parcells. They are NUTS on the subject if thats their reasoning. In Parcells case it will be one in a very few times that he would be wrong.

Lombardi ain't nowhere as good as Parcells. He's better than Grossi but he's trying hard to get worse

JMHO - so what are you saying Dong...it makes sense to you just cause Lombardi says so???

"i think there's some misconception that, if a team appears set at one position, they no longer look at that position, which has to be false."

Who says YOU??? and that makes it False?
Well that enough for me I'm sold - Dong "thinks".

Obviously there's more than 1 board involved - One with the Overall of who is being taken. One with their rankings of Positions in the draft. One with their own Players to PICK BOARD which is the one I was talking about...I doubt if any QB was on it except maybe some late round pick possibles.

In their positional QB board...I almost certain they had Russell #1 and BQ #2 possibly they had Edwards higher??? I know we were targeting Edwards to be our 2nd round pick btw.

But do you think I'm suggesting they going into the draft with a one paper and a list of 50 players on it...and that's all.

Come on...its called a War Room they got different lists galore and got all the I's dotted and T's crossed! With every possible situation. But I wasn't the one referring to the Pats board...when that is spoken I'm thinking of their TO PICK LIST of 40 to 50 players.

I know for instance Savage he'd come out of the draft pleased and state all the players we drafted were in his 40 list. That included our 7th round picks.

As mentioned I doubt if NE had any QB on the list...maybe Edwards in the area of where the 4th rounders were or something???

Who knows...but Logically that matters as in NOTHING on how McDaniels evaluates BQ. So if Lomabardi said it...fine so yes, he's a Bozo to

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1. Grossi referred to it as PROOF that Quinn Sucks. So he concurs.

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lol, just admit you misread. not a big deal. and no, he didn't refer to it as proof, merely as an interesting read: "Mike Lombardi, who was Bill Belichick's personnel director with the Browns in the 1990s, had an eye-opening take on Quinn."

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Lombardi is pretty good as they come

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which is why his opinion is worth considering, as he certainly isn't a bozo.

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He still maintains that opinion. Fine - so does that make him right? Just remember we are talking about somebody involved with taking Tommy Vardell as the big thing - and that was when he was in the loop? lol Actually don't know for sure if he was involved then just hoping I'm right

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i don't remember but i can't think of a FO person batting 100% but regardless, his opinion is still worth a lot more than our beatwriters'.

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JMHO - so what are you saying Dong...it makes sense to you just cause Lombardi says so???

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not at all. in fact, i offered no opinion in response to what he said or anything, really, lately. i'm just tired of all this. it makes me think the best-case scenario really is to just ship one out, regardless of who it is. if we go to training camp and have an all out battle and IF DA won it, you guys (read: diam) would lose your minds.

if you REALLY want my opinion though, i'd say this: i can't think of any other qb in recent history who has been so questioned and if you really are so stubborn to admit that maybe quinn has been very hyped up, i'd be shocked. before the draft, we hear scouts say the guy is a 3rd rounder. after the draft, we hear teams say they grouped him closer to edwards and stanton. after a few years, we still have football guys like lombardi saying this guy isn't nearly what we think he is. can you think of a qb who was this questioned? it makes me uncomfortable, especially given the success rate of 1st round qbs.

here's something else i'd tell you. there are two, maybe three, things that we think are quinn's strong points. the problem is we just "give" him these strong points and we don't know if they are even there.

- mobility: romo is mobile. frye is mobile. mcnabb, cutler, big ben, are mobile. quinn is NOT mobile compared to them. quinn is mobile compared to DA.

- intelligent: this trait is always mentioned but how are we ASSuming his intelligence? you can bring up grades and that he was in weiss' system but what has showed you that this guy is supposed to be above-average in nfl qb intelligence? i think this is an example of how we, as cleveland fans, build up a player to think he's supposed to be amazing, when really he could be just average, and when he busts, we're all heartbroken. if you talk about "intelligent" qbs, you look at brady, manning, and maybe brees. you can be average in intelligence and still succeed but when you cite his "intelligence" as a strong point, you, whether directly or indirectly, consciously or unconsciously say that quinn is as intelligent as brady and manning, which we do not know is true.

- accuracy. compared to who? and in what terms? sure he may be more accurate than DA in teh 2-5 yard range but can you remember a ball he connected in the 15-20 yard range? i can't.

and if you really want something to blow your mind, why don't you take the time to compare frye's first ROOKIE start and quinn's first start. then keep in mind that frye's team was a patched o-line and one target, whereas quinn had an actual left tackle, two weapons, and he played the 30th defense. and i only bring this up because it's the one and only game evangelical-quinn supporters cite as to how quinn will be the end all of qbs.

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Who says YOU??? and that makes it False?
Well that enough for me I'm sold - Dong "thinks".

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that wasn't to you. 214 didn't believe that teams looked at all positions. his take was "pats wouldn't waste time/money/effort reviewing qbs when they had tom brady" but nice to know my thoughts are enough to sell you on it. did i ever tell you that i "think" DA can be a good qb? hope you buy that one too

i'm with you on that. here's the thing, if quinn wins, there is no problem. everyone is happy, including you and me. if, for some reason, DA won, at least 90% of the fanbase is pissed. now, i can expect many of the posters here to be somewhat more open-minded or at least supportive, but how do you expect the general fanbase to react to that? every home game is going to be "braaaaaady braaaaaaady" regardless of the product on the field. that's the only reason why i posted what i did.

My only fear of a QB competition is that it doesn't get decided til week #1, and then we go into the season a little off our game. Hmm, then I guess that would be what we've become accustomed to.

i agree. my take is that the strengths in brady's game relative to DA's do not outweigh what you'd lose in the replacement. ie, brady may be slightly more mobile and more accurate in the short game but you lose the intermediate to deep balls that DA can throw and the quick release, which causes defenses to line up with more men in the box, ruining the running game.

In regard to what "the fanbase" will think if DA is named the starter, my attitude is "Who gives a damn?" I want the team to do what it takes to WIN, not satisfy loudmouth know-it-alls. Over the last couple years, I've seen "the fanbase" go from the best fans in football to a status worse than Eagles fans.

Mind you I don't really blame people- this is just what years and years of losing or coming up short does to a fanbase- everyone gets all bitter and cynical and starts thinking they could run the team better than the coaches or FO. The fanbase starts to "demand" things. There's only ONE way to demand something from an NFL team- and that is to not buy game tickets, apparel, etc. Until you're ready to boycott the team, your opinion means zilch to them. As it should. If the teams bowed to every yahoo's opinion, they'd be in even more of a mess than there are now.

As for the QBs, I am undecided. We haven't really gotten to see what BQ can do once "broken in" (and it may be time to see it), and as far as DA goes, all the people that have made their minds up based on last year seem to always (or conveniently) leave out the following facts when judging his performance: We had a primary receiver who couldn't catch, other receivers who either cant run routes or just plain suck (steptoe), TONS of injuries (including the our other WR threats), an O-line that protected much better on paper than it did IRL, an OC who was still calling running plays when we were down by 2 or 3 scores well into the 4th qtr., and a defense that was always putting the offense in a stressful play-from-behind mode.

Sorry, but Brady (or even TOM Brady, for that matter) would have done scant better, given the tools DA had to work with last year.

The bottom line is that we haven't had much chance to see what ANY Browns QB could do if the other parts of the team (and coaching staff) pulled their own weight as well. The again, we did catch a glimpse of that during the first 2/3s of 2007. And what do you know- that was when people thought DA was a God. Interesting.

I don't care WHO starts this year- all i know is that, if we still have multiple injuries, butterfingers, bad route running, turnstyle O and D line players, no-discipline coaching, etc. -Superman himself could play QB and still get run out of town by our "fanbase".

What you're essentially saying is that the system they run favor BQ's style of play and Mangini's past points to the idea that he's comfortable with smarts and accuracy and not overly concerned with the arm.

Now...first and foremost, I agree with you. It's actually rather elementary (that's not a dig at all). So most of this is devil's advocate...but...

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in there first draft they passed on Lienart and Cutler with the #4 pick

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To take D'Brickshaw Ferguson. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I imagine that their line was pitiful. Stating that they didn't take Leinart or Cutler at four as if the only possible reason was that they weren't overly intrigued or enamored is a limited conclusion.

He could've just as easily really dug both and decided in the end that the line came first...no point getting a kid's shoulder ripped off a la Couch and Carr.

What was his GM's role/influence?

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couple that with what they were both exposed to at NE and it becomes very clear they are comfie with a short, ball control type O that has a SMART and ACCURATE QB over the type of O the strong armed type guys will run ..

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And yet he gave his child the middle name of a gunslinger who throws caution to the wind.

The devil's advocate to my devil's advocate is that it burned him and he's learned.

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that CLEARLY points to a BQ type O ... CLEARLY ...

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I agree with you...but I wouldn't say clearly.

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we all know he does not fit the type of O that Jeannie and Daboll are the most comfie with .. thats not even remotely close to debatable ..

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As you said...they don't talk. They've said zero. The body of work to examine is Mangini's short time in New York where he struck out.

N.E. doesn't even factor in with me...we just struck out on a N.E. product...and if you asked me before his first season what he likes and does as a coach...I"d have been DEAD wrong...everyone would've.

What they're currently comfortable with is heresay and guesswork based on limited evidence...for ANY argument.

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that history shows a QB that is SMART and ACCURATE and he can make all the throws ...

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Also shows he struggled in big times. A lot of his work at N.D. was ringing up service academies.

If I was being slanted or unfair, I'd stop there...but the truth is he had a veritable practice squad surrounding him...so that's a keyhole perspective.

But I think a fair assessment is that while he showed the stuff you cite, he also showed happy feet and a lot of confusion when pressured...you'll probably ask how much N.D. I've watched...not nearly as much as you...so me pointing out what I didn't like about him then probably is a waste.

I do think that he can succeed here with the right parts in place...and outside of LT and a mercurial WR who's gone in no more than a year...I don't think we have any of those parts. In that respect, I doubt the effectiveness of either guy.

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but there is AN AWFUL LOT OF SIGNS POINTING TO BQ being the man

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Agreed, but I could string together a case containing an awful lot signs pointing to DA...but like your case, I think it's mainly conjecture and projection. And again...I think you're right...but we could be wrong.

But I could point to us dangling BQ to Denver, Mangini's Favre-love, the announcement of an open camp...you'd have a retort for that, just as I do for your talking points. We're all just guessing at this point IMO.

And the open camp...you could make just a valid point about it's legitimacy as you could for it being trade posturing...

I, like you, have no idea what's going on in Mangini's head outside of past evidence...but if I would piece it all together, I'd come up with the following...

Without speculating on who he and Kokinis prefer, I do believe based on evidence that they are completely willing to ship either guy if the price was right.

My 2 cents on this whole thing.

1) I have not seen enough of Quinn to make an assessment as to if he is a NFL QB. All the games that he has played, the playbook was limited to checkdowns and other dink and dump stuff. I thought that the Browns were using the Dorsey playsheet. I like his mobility, I saw more from him in college.

2) I think we know that Anderson is an acceptable, but not great NFL QB. He has the arm, but I am concerned about his accuracy.

I tend to value good decisions, accuracy, low turnovers and mobility from a QB, So that probably makes me a Quinn fan, but I have not seen enough to pass judgement.